[niemamczasu]

i was just wondering are muslims allowed to fight other muslims in self defense, even to the point where the opponent may be killed?

and what about fighting to defend your property against muslims?

the hadiths, dont lift a weopon against a muslim, if two muslims fight and one gets killed, then the killer and the killed both go to hell, and if muslim comes to our doorstep to kill you, be like the son of Adam, comes to mind

those hadiths may indicate we should never fight other muslims...?

[SannyGlow]

i was just wondering are muslims allowed to fight other muslims in self defense, even to the point where the opponent may be killed?

and what about fighting to defend your property against muslims?

the hadiths, dont lift a weopon against a muslim, if two muslims fight and one gets killed, then the killer and the killed both go to hell, and if muslim comes to our doorstep to kill you, be like the son of Adam, comes to mind

those hadiths may indicate we should never fight other muslims...?

good Muslims fought good Muslims at the battle of the camel

Hadhrat Ali (raa) was a rightly guided one who is generally agreed to have been correct in his ijtehad over the issues related to it etc

also Hadhrat Abu Bakr (raa) fought those Muslim clans who refused to pay zakaat as apostates etc.


why its better for people like us not to try and derive ruling from hadith is because unlike the Ulema we only tend to know part of the story, so we tend to take a hadith that we read and fail to know its context or how it is to be understood etc, or how it interacts with all the other relevant Quran verses and hadiths etc.

[skiboyx]

good Muslims fought good Muslims at the battle of the camel

Hadhrat Ali (raa) was a rightly guided one who is generally agreed to have been correct in his ijtehad over the issues related to it etc

also Hadhrat Abu Bakr (raa) fought those Muslim clans who refused to pay zakaat as apostates etc.


why its better for people like us not to try and derive ruling from hadith is because unlike the Ulema we only tend to know part of the story, so we tend to take a hadith that we read and fail to know its context or how it is to be understood etc, or how it interacts with all the other relevant Quran verses and hadiths etc.

good point about the battle of camel, so there is at least one circumstance when muslims can fight muslims, i.e authority clamping dowm on rebbellion

[appletango]

i was just wondering are muslims allowed to fight other muslims in self defense, even to the point where the opponent may be killed?

and what about fighting to defend your property against muslims?

the hadiths, dont lift a weopon against a muslim, if two muslims fight and one gets killed, then the killer and the killed both go to hell, and if muslim comes to our doorstep to kill you, be like the son of Adam, comes to mind

those hadiths may indicate we should never fight other muslims...?

Self defense is allowed even from a moslem, since the offender is considered fasiq. Please do correct me if Im wrong. While in the battle of Camel, it was a matter of Ijtihad. ALLAH had Known that the two sides would fight against each other, but still ALLAH Loved them; Ali radhiallahu anhu and Aisyah radhiallahuanha. Read Surah At Taubah 100.

[Sthjrderfida]

JazakAllah salfusalih,

what the battle of camel shows us brother is that authority is allowed to clamp down on rebbellion, and Allah loved both groups as the group in the wrong was fighting according to mistaken ijtihad, for whcih there is still one qiraat of reward

but that dont really answer wether ordinary self defense or fighting in defense of property, to the ultimate extent is allowed, or reccomended or not and where exactly the 'be like the son of Adam' fits in in all of this

JazakAllah khair!

[ClapekDodki]

JazakAllah salfusalih,

what the battle of camel shows us brother is that authority is allowed to clamp down on rebbellion, and Allah loved both groups as the group in the wrong was fighting according to mistaken ijtihad, for whcih there is still one qiraat of reward

but that dont really answer wether ordinary self defense or fighting in defense of property, to the ultimate extent is allowed, or reccomended or not and where exactly the 'be like the son of Adam' fits in in all of this

JazakAllah khair!

May Allah Grant us more knowledge, amin.

A person came to Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) and said: ‘Rasul Allah, what do you say if a man comes to me in order to appropriate my possessions?’
Rasul Allah said: ‘Don't surrender your possessions to him.’
The inquirer asked: ‘If he fights me?’
Rasul Allah remarked: ‘Then fight (with him).’
The inquirer again asked: ‘What do you think if I am killed?’
Rasul Allah said: ‘You would be a martyr.’
The inquirer said: ‘What do you think of him, if I kill him.’
Rasul Allah said: ‘He would be in the Fire.’” [Muslim]


Allahu Musta'an

[didrexx]

if a 'man' comes to me; can that man also be a muslim?

excuse my extreme scrupolousness brother but with the above mentioned hadiths, i need to be certain without a shred of doubt

ameen to the dua

[dubballey]

good Muslims fought good Muslims at the battle of the camel

Hadhrat Ali (raa) was a rightly guided one who is generally agreed to have been correct in his ijtehad over the issues related to it etc

also Hadhrat Abu Bakr (raa) fought those Muslim clans who refused to pay zakaat as apostates etc.


why its better for people like us not to try and derive ruling from hadith is because unlike the Ulema we only tend to know part of the story, so we tend to take a hadith that we read and fail to know its context or how it is to be understood etc, or how it interacts with all the other relevant Quran verses and hadiths etc.

also imam abu hanifah supporting the rebellion of Ibrahim and his brother against the Abbasid Khalifah (because the brothers wanted to implement shariah).
imam ibn taymiyyah fighting against Muslim secular tataris for their secularism.
imam hussein fighting against yazid.

there are recent examples also of such permissions granted by ulema to fight other 'Muslims'. some times the crime of the other party is so high that they become apostates. sometimes they stay within Islam yet permission is given to fight them.

as for self-defense: yes it is permitted to kill the offender without distinction of religion, age, gender (according to imam nawwawi as far as i can remb; other opinions on this I dont remb). This is an exceptional case obviously

[mnhloot]

jazakAllah brother, i,m begining to get convinced now!

[strmini]

good Muslims fought good Muslims at the battle of the camel

Hadhrat Ali (raa) was a rightly guided one who is generally agreed to have been correct in his ijtehad over the issues related to it etc

also Hadhrat Abu Bakr (raa) fought those Muslim clans who refused to pay zakaat as apostates etc.

Exactly,Also Salhudeen fought three khalifs all Muslims and defeated all of them. Sometimes I think about it and wonder what he had to deal with as during his time their we're three khalifah's.

[educationonlines]

Exactly,Also Salhudeen fought three khalifs all Muslims and defeated all of them. Sometimes I think about it and wonder what he had to deal with as during his time their we're three khalifah's.

i didn't know this.
do you have a book where this is from?

[mikelangr]

i didn't know this.
do you have a book where this is from?

I believe I heard it in Sheikh Zahir Mahmood's talk on Salahudeen Ayyubi which can be found on YouTube/kalamullah

[steerryGritly]

I believe I heard it in Sheikh Zahir Mahmood's talk on Salahudeen Ayyubi which can be found on YouTube/kalamullah

[bettingonosports]

also imam abu hanifah supporting the rebellion of Ibrahim and his brother against the Abbasid Khalifah (because the brothers wanted to implement shariah).
imam ibn taymiyyah fighting against Muslim secular tataris for their secularism.
imam hussein fighting against yazid.

there are recent examples also of such permissions granted by ulema to fight other 'Muslims'. some times the crime of the other party is so high that they become apostates. sometimes they stay within Islam yet permission is given to fight them.

as for self-defense: yes it is permitted to kill the offender without distinction of religion, age, gender (according to imam nawwawi as far as i can remb; other opinions on this I dont remb). This is an exceptional case obviously

The permission you say exist, hopefully you dont consider AQ an exception who cannot bbe fought at inspite of their crimes.

[bunkalapa]

The permission you say exist, hopefully you dont consider AQ an exception who cannot bbe fought at inspite of their crimes.

your definition of 'crime' based on your lack of knowledge and blind hatred for salafis is incorrect.

[antonyandruleit]

your definition of 'crime' based on your lack of knowledge and blind hatred for salafis is incorrect.

In the same way, the definition of "crime" thrown by AQ against everyone else is by the same vein is subject to being incorrent and born out of hatred and other twisted arguments.

[wgX44EEn]

In the same way, the definition of "crime" thrown by AQ against everyone else is by the same vein is subject to being incorrent and born out of hatred and other twisted arguments.

your comparison is incorrect.

there is nothing incoherent about the crimes of the Americans and the Jews. nor is there anything incoherent about the crimes of the secular leaders and armies. both salafi and senior deobandi ulema have spoken against both using evidence from well-known established scholars of the past and the example of the Prophet (PBUH) and Companions(RA). one has to read them without bias and hatred to understand them.

[ancexttew]

your comparison is incorrect.

there is nothing incoherent about the crimes of the Americans and the Jews. nor is there anything incoherent about the crimes of the secular leaders and armies. both salafi and senior deobandi ulema have spoken against both using evidence from well-known established scholars of the past and the example of the Prophet (PBUH) and Companions(RA). one has to read them without bias and hatred to understand them.

Neither is there anything incoherent about AQ crime of blowing up 2000+ civilians in 9/11 and elements of it blowing up embassys in Kenya before and and similarily crimes post 9/11 killing more Muslims than Jews did. Not to forget the assassination of Ahmed Shah Masoud and similar crimes in broad day light against Muslims.