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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #1
dafodilkemmy

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Default Zina conviction - 4 (male?) witnesses who have seen the act?
I've been asked about this - do the witnesses have to be all male or can it be a combination? If it's a combination do you need more than one female witness to count as one witness? I understand the longest ayah in the Qur'an 2:282 is dealing with business transactions and has no bearing on this matter of zina. The 1 male witness == 2 female witnesses verse.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #2
Diwokfkq

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No, in the case of zina, all 4 witnesses must be male. Furthermore, all 4 of them must be known as pious or at least decent people in the society. Even the testimony of a thousand saintly females would not be valid.

Read from bottom of page 25 subtitled "Evidence": http://www.inkofscholars.com/mujlis/...k_pdf/RAJM.pdf
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #3
Indinehon

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Why does there have to be 4 male witnesses and not women, Can someone clarify this for me please?
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #4
Belindanan

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what's required of the 4 witnesses - that they actual sighted the (zina) intercourse taking place? whats the chances of that actually happening i.e. 2 people having actual intercourse (i.e. not kissing, holding hands, cuddling, talking etc), i assume hided/on 'the side', and 4 people managed to see it?
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #5
TineSeign

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If 4 men have to see the act (like in a dirty movie) is that not a sin to look at what is happening?!?!? Or is it an exception that you are allowed to watch a live porn movie (!!!!!) just to get the culprits convicted? This cannot be right?
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #6
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If 4 men have to see the act (like in a dirty movie) is that not a sin to look at what is happening?!?!? Or is it an exception that you are allowed to watch a live porn movie (!!!!!) just to get the culprits convicted? This cannot be right?
what's required of the 4 witnesses - that they actual sighted the (zina) intercourse taking place? whats the chances of that actually happening i.e. 2 people having actual intercourse (i.e. not kissing, holding hands, cuddling, talking etc), i assume hided/on 'the side', and 4 people managed to see it?
What needs to be understood is that this method of convicting two people of zina is actually pretty impossible. The chances of four pious males all stumbling upon an act of penetration, and then all deciding to report it (instead of hiding the sin, which Islam encourages), is very, very slim. This has been done on purpose because the punishment for zina (rajm) is very severe and is not meant to be carried out in the first place. It is only ordained to scare the masses and prevent the sin of zina.

The only logical way a person can be convicted of zina is through confession, and even then the qadhi must look for excuses to not carry out rajm.

I suggest both of you continue reading on the PDF link I provided from page 25. It explains everything.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #7
Oxzzlvpg

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What needs to be understood is that this method of convicting two people of zina is actually pretty impossible. The chances of four pious males all stumbling upon an act of penetration, and then all deciding to report it (instead of hiding the sin, which Islam encourages), is very, very slim. This has been done on purpose because the punishment for zina (rajm) is very severe and is not meant to be carried out in the first place. It is only ordained to scare the masses and prevent the sin of zina.

The only logical way a person can be convicted of zina is through confession, and even then the qadhi must look for excuses to not carry out rajm.

I suggest both of you continue reading on the PDF link I provided from page 25. It explains everything.
Witnesses to testify that the person making the original testimony is truthful I believe.

This counts more for Adultery.

when it comes to Zina one may claim that his cousin for instance commited Zina.

and he brings 4 witnesses that are willing to put wish for the wrath of Allah upon themselves if the person they are backing is a liar.

That makes more sense, or it could mean actual witnesses, ask a mufti.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #8
leijggeds

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Witnesses to testify that the person making the original testimony is truthful I believe.

This counts more for Adultery.

when it comes to Zina one may claim that his cousin for instance commited Zina.

and he brings 4 witnesses that are willing to put wish for the wrath of Allah upon themselves if the person they are backing is a liar.

That makes more sense, or it could mean actual witnesses, ask a mufti.


No, there is no 'original persons testimony' backed by the 4. Its the actual testimonies by 4 male witnesses. Which is very unlikely, if not impossible, because rajm is not meant to be carried out very often in the first place.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #9
VQdeochratis

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[QUOTE=a.s.;808325]

No, there is no 'original persons testimony' backed by the 4. Its the actual testimonies by 4 male witnesses. Which is very unlikely, if not impossible, because rajm is not meant to be carried out very often in the first place.[/Q

Do you know why the 4 witnesses have to be male? Please reply. JZK
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #10
cafeviahe

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[QUOTE=uali3;808647]


No, there is no 'original persons testimony' backed by the 4. Its the actual testimonies by 4 male witnesses. Which is very unlikely, if not impossible, because rajm is not meant to be carried out very often in the first place.[/Q

Do you know why the 4 witnesses have to be male? Please reply. JZK


Because that is how God wants it, and thats how the fiqh of rajm works. Simple.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #11
palantownia

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[QUOTE=uali3;808647]


No, there is no 'original persons testimony' backed by the 4. Its the actual testimonies by 4 male witnesses. Which is very unlikely, if not impossible, because rajm is not meant to be carried out very often in the first place.[/Q

Do you know why the 4 witnesses have to be male? Please reply. JZK
No I don't, possibly because some women lie to hurt other women.

Or because the women are not "known" to be pious because they do not socialize with the males thus taking a testimony from her could create an argument about if she is even a pious muslim or not because no one has seen her do good except other women etc.

there good be a million reasons or just one do not doubt Allah he knows why he doesn't want to take the testimony of females or why he judges them to half of a mans testimony in most/all cases.

and If the kafir don't like it, I don't care I am not embarrassed by my deen or our law regardless how it looks at first glance to those who hate Islam to begin with because they can't find anything else to hate.
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