[somamasoso]

Narrated Al-Abbas ibn AbdulMuttalib: I was sitting in al-Batha with a company among whom the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) was sitting, when a cloud passed above them. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) looked at it and said: What do you call this? They said: Sahab. He said: And muzn? They said: And muzn. He said: And anan? They said: And anan. AbuDawud said: I am not quite confident about the word anan. He asked: Do you know the distance between Heaven and earth? They replied: We do not know. He then said: The distance between them is seventy-one, seventy-two, or seventy-three years. The heaven which is above it is at a similar distance (going on till he counted seven heavens). Above the seventh heaven there is a sea, the distance between whose surface and bottom is like that between one heaven and the next. Above that there are eight mountain goats the distance between whose hoofs and haunches is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then Allah, the Blessed and the Exalted, is above that. (Book #40, Hadith #4705) Muhammad b. Jubair b. Mut’im said from his father on the authority of his grandfather:
An A’rab(a nomadic Arab) came to the Apostle of Allah(may peace be upon him) and said: People suffering distress, the children are hungry, the crops are withered, and the animals are perished, so ask Allah to grant us rain, for we seek you as our intercessor with Allah, and Allah as intercessor with you. The Apostle of Allah(may peace be upon him) said: Woe to you: Do you know what you are saying? Then the Apostle of Allah(may peace be upon him) declared Allah’s glory and he continued declaring His glory till the effect of that was apparent in the faces of his Companions. He then said: Woe to you: Allah is not to be sought as intercessor with anyone. Allah’s state is greater than that. Woe to you! Do you know how great Allah is? His throne is above the heavens thus(indicating with his fingers like a dome over him), and it groans on account of Him as a saddle does because of the rider.

Ibn Bashshar said in his version: Allah is above the throne, and the throne is above the heavens. He then mentioned the rest of the tradition. ‘Abd al-A’la, Ibn al- Muthana and Ibn Bashshar transmitted it from Ya’qub b. ‘Utbah and Jubair b. Muhammad b. Jubair from his father on the authority of his grandfather.

Abu Dawud said: This tradition with the chain of Ahmad b. Sa’ad is sound. It has been approved by the body (of traditionists) , which includes Yahya b. Ma’in and ‘Ali b. al-Madani, and a group has transmitted it from Ibn Ishaq, as Ahmad also said. And so far as I have been informed ‘Abd al-A’la, Ibn al-Muthanna, and Ibn Bashshar had heard from the same copy(of the collection of tradition). A bit shocked I have to say... do we know if Imam Abu Dawud applied ta'wil to such hadiths?

[inownsuipsy]

A bit shocked I have to say... do we know if Imam Abu Dawud applied ta'wil to such hadiths?

salaam+
Don't be shocked! Those types of 'ahaadiyth contain great amounts of knowledge. They are like mathematical equations containing and explaining enormous facts in succinct words. You must have knowledge on a high level to understand them otherwise you would have no idea about their meaning.

[JewJoleSole]

A bit shocked I have to say... do we know if Imam Abu Dawud applied ta'wil to such hadiths?

Any idea of its authenticity?

Narrated Al-Abbas ibn AbdulMuttalib: I was sitting in al-Batha with a company among whom the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) was sitting, when a cloud passed above them. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) looked at it and said: What do you call this? They said: Sahab. He said: And muzn? They said: And muzn. He said: And anan? They said: And anan. AbuDawud said: I am not quite confident about the word anan. He asked: Do you know the distance between Heaven and earth? They replied: We do not know. He then said: The distance between them is seventy-one, seventy-two, or seventy-three years. The heaven which is above it is at a similar distance (going on till he counted seven heavens). Above the seventh heaven there is a sea, the distance between whose surface and bottom is like that between one heaven and the next. Above that there are eight mountain goats the distance between whose hoofs and haunches is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then Allah, the Blessed and the Exalted, is above that. (Book #40, Hadith #4705)

[Poreponko]

************As for the text of the hadith itself*(matn), it is considered by Ibn Kathir in his*Tafsir*(1:31, 2:14) as a “strange” or one-chained(gharîb)*narration. Ibn Kathir also states that Abu Dawud’s narration from Jabir ibn Mut‘am is “stranger yet.”*

************The narration of Abu Dawud from Jubayr ibn Mut‘am, from his father, from his grandfather, states:An Arab came to the Messenger of Allah (s) and said: “O Messenger of Allah, people are in distress, the children are hungry, the crops are withered, and the animals are perishing, so Ask Allah to grant us rain, for we seek you as our intercessor with Allah, and Allah as our intercessor with you.” The Prophet (s) said: “Woe to you! Do you know what you are saying?” Then the Prophet (s) glorified Allah and he went on until the effect of his speech showed on the faces of his Companions. He then said: “Woe to you! Allah is not to be sought as intercessor with anyone. His state is greater than that. Woe to you![17]*Do you know the greatness of Allah? Truly, His Throne*(‘arsh)*is on His Heavens like this” – and he formed with his fingers something like a dome over him – “and it groans on account of Him like a saddle groans because of its rider.” Ibn Bashshar added in his version: “Allah (swt) is above His Throne, and His Throne is above His Heavens.”[18]*

************The hadith is graded weak by the author of*‘Awn al-Ma‘bud. Al-Dhahabi terms it an “extremely strange” one-chained narration(gharîb jiddan)*and says: “Allah knows best if the Prophet (s) ever said such a thing or not; Allah –*(there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him)*(42:11)!”[19]*We have already mentioned Ibn Kathir’s similar opinion of the hadith. As for its chain of narration, it is de*clared weak by the editors of Ibn Abi ‘Asim’s*al-Sunna*and al-Ajurri’s al-Shari‘a. This is due to the concealment*(tadlîs)*of the mode of transmission through*‘an‘ana*or undecisive transmission terminology by one of its narrators, Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Yasar al-Muttalibi while another narrator, Jubayr ibn Muhammad ibn Jubayr ibn Mut‘am, is merely “acceptable”*(maqbûl),[20]*which makes him unreliable in a narration that is not independently verifiable. There are other problems with the chain and the text, which Ibn ‘Asakir addresses in*Bayan al-Wahm. Ibn al-Qayyim alone claimed that the least grading of this narration was*hasan.*

“The import of the hadith 'and it groans... like a saddle' ...consists in a metaphor to give an idea of the greatness of Allah and make understandable to the questioner...”*Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi

**************The hadith master Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 386) states in his commentary on Abu Dawud:If this discourse is taken in its outward sense, then it suggests modality*(kayfiyya), which does not apply to Allah and His Attributes. It is therefore understood that the import of the hadith is not to attribute modality to Him or suggest boundaries to Him in this manner. Rather, it consists in a metaphor*(kalâm taqrîb)*to give an idea of the greatness of Allah and make understandable to the questioner what is beyond his level of understanding, for he was an uneducated Bedouin unversed in the minutiae of language and the sutbleties of speech which elude the mind. In this discourse, we find ellipsis and allusiveness. Thus the meaning of his saying: “Do you know what Allah is?” means: Do you know the greatness of Allah? and his saying: “It groans under him” means that it is unable to carry His Majesty and Greatness. Thus it groans under him for it is known that the reason a camel saddle groans under the rider is because of the weight of what is on it and its inability to carry it. By drawing this kind of similitude he illustrates the meaning of the Greatness and Might of Allah and the height of His Throne in order for it to be known that the holder of lofty rank, mighty status, and exalted name, is not to be made an intercessor with one who is lesser in position and below Him in degree.[21]*

“The meaning of the groaning of the*kursî*is its impotence before the majesty and greatness of Allah” Ibn Jawzi

*

************A similar mode of interpretation was adopted by later scholars. Ibn al-Athir (d. 630) in his*Nihaya fi Gharîb al-Hadith*under the entry “a-t-t” said: “There is no actual groaning, it is only a metaphorical expression in order to confirm Divine magnificence”*(wa in lam yakun thamma atît wa innamâ huwa kalâmu taqrîb urîda bihi taqrîru ‘azamat Allâh ta‘âlâ). Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597) stated something identical in his*Daf‘ Shubah al-Tashbih:*

The meaning of the groaning of the*kursî*is its impotence before the majesty and greatness of Allah, as it is known that the groaning of the camel saddle under its rider is a indication of the power of what sits on top of it, or its impotence to bear it. The Prophet (s) drew this kind of simile for Divine greatness and majesty in order to teach the Arab who had sought the intercession of Allah (swt) with the Prophet (s) that the One whose great*ness is overwhelming is not to be sought as an intercessor with those under His station. As for al-Qadi Abu Ya‘la’s words: “The groaning is because of the pressure of the Essence of Allah on it” – this is overt anthropomorphism.[22]*

************Al-Dhahabi eludes the issue by stating that the groaning of the Throne is unrelated to the Divine Names and Attributes but would be similar to the shaking of the Throne at the death of Sa‘d ibn Mu‘adh (as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim) and the cleaving of the heaven on the Day of Resurrection.[23]*

Al-Suyuti mentioned Abu Musa al-Ash‘ari’s narration in*al-Durr al-Manthur*and said: “This is a metaphor*(hâdha ‘alâ sabîl al-isti‘âra). This [metaphorical] meaning is made clear by Ibn Jarir’s narration from al-Dahhak whereby ‘The*kursî*is placed below the Throne and is where the angels stand.’”*

Al-Suyuti’s elucidation is confirmed by what al-Qurtubi quoted from Ibn ‘Atiyya in his*Tafsir*of the Verse of the Throne whereby the meaning was that the*kursî*was placed in front of the*‘arsh*“just like” the footstool is placed in front of a high chair, indicating that it did not necessitate reference to an actual footstool but referred, for example, to a seat or station. Al-Bayhaqi states the same.[24]*

“As for al-Qadi Abu Ya‘la’s words: ‘The groaning is because of the pressure of the Essence of Allah on it’ – this is overt anthropomorphism” Ibn Jawzi

*

************It is evident that the authorities considered the narrations of the groaning of the Throne as weak and their texts as “strange” and one-chained in their transmission. They held that even if such narrations were to be accepted, nevertheless their meaning would be understood as metaphorical in order to preclude anthropomorphism. The meaning of the Throne’s groaning would then be its impotence before Divine Majesty and Greatness or its submission to its Creator. http://www.sunnah.org/anthro/anthro2.htm

[JackTimQSR]

Qaalallahu Jalla Sha'nuhu: "Huwalladhee anzala `alaykal kitaaba minhu aayaatum muhkamaatun hunna ummul kitaabi wa ukharu mtashaabihaat. Fa'ammalladheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabi`oona maa tashaabaha minhub tighaa'al fitnah, wabtighaa'a ta'weelih. Wa maa ya`lamu ta'weelahu illallaah. Warraasikhoona fil `ilmi yaqooloona aamannaa bihi kullum min `indi Rabbinaa wa maa yadhdhakkaru illaa ulul albaab." [Surah Aal-e-Imraan: 7.]

Whatever Ta'weelaat are given by the `Ulama are not necessarily correct. When any of the Mutakallimoon would give Ta'weel they would not say that this IS the correct meaning, or the only meaning. So their opinions are not taken as Qur'aan and Hadeeth. Nor is it necessary to make Ta'weel just because they had made Ta'weel. Keep in mind the words of Imaam Maalik (Rahimahullahu Ta`aalaa): "Maa minnaa illaa raaddun wa mardoodun `alayhi, illaa Saahiba haadhal Qabr [ya`nee, ar-Rasool (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam).]"

And the safest view has always been the view of the Salaf-us-Saalih, such as Imaam Maalik, Imaam Ahmad, Imaam Sufyaan ath-Thawri, Imaam Sufyaan ibn Uyaynah, Imaam Yahya ibn Sa`eed al-Qattaan, Imaam Yahya ibn Ma`een, Imaam Ahmad ibn Nasr al-Khuza'I, etc. (Rahmatullaahi `alayhim ajma`een.) And their view with regards to the Mutashaabihaat Aayaat and Ahaadeeth was: "Amirroohaa kamaa jaa'at, bilaa ta'weelin wa laa ta`teelin wa laa takyeefin wa laa tamtheelin wa laa tashbeehin wa laa tajseem." So this is the safest and most correct view in this matter.

So my advice to you is to not worry about interpretations for these Aayaat and Ahaadeeth. Do not concern yourself with them, as a non-`Aalim especially. Allaah Rabbul `Izzah will not question with regards to them.

So learn that which is necessary for you, and spend your time in the performance of A`maal-us-Saalihah, as this will draw you closer to Allaah, Inshaa'Allaahul `Azheem.

We cannot even understand the creation of Allaah properly, so how can we, the Makhlooqaat, ever expect to understand Allaah Rabbul `Izzah himself? May Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta`aalaa grant us the correct understanding, Ameen.

[GeorgeEckland]

Mountain goats?