[anfuckinggs]

I found the book very good; it, along with the excellent book on Imam Abu Hanifa by Shaykh Nadwi, convinced me of the superiority of certain aspects of the Hanafi school which are not very well elucidated by other contemporary authorities. However, that is not the purpose of this thread. What I found interesting were two parts in particular-

Then on page 104 the Shaykh attributes the view of reciting al-Fatiha behind the Imam in silent prayers to one narration from Imam Abu Hanifa and one narration from Imam Muhammad, and then another group of noteworthy 'ulema, many of whom appear to have specialized in hadeeth.

On page 181, Shaykh Riyadh ul-Haq quotes a few ahadeeth and says that the Hanafi 'ulema believe it to be Sunnah to raise the finger at the time of negation and affirmation, then attributes the position of keeping it raised and steady until the end of the prayer (like in the Hanbali and Shafi'i schools) to Maulana Rashid Ahmed Gangohi and 'some other 'ulema.'

My question is, are these considered valid differences in the Hanafi school or are they considered shadh opinions?

[Druspills]

I found the book very good; it, along with the excellent book on Imam Abu Hanifa by Shaykh Nadwi, convinced me of the superiority of certain aspects of the Hanafi school which are not very well elucidated by other contemporary authorities. However, that is not the purpose of this thread. What I found interesting were two parts in particular-

Then on page 104 the Shaykh attributes the view of reciting al-Fatiha behind the Imam in silent prayers to one narration from Imam Abu Hanifa and one narration from Imam Muhammad, and then another group of noteworthy 'ulema, many of whom appear to have specialized in hadeeth.

On page 181, Shaykh Riyadh ul-Haq quotes a few ahadeeth and says that the Hanafi 'ulema believe it to be Sunnah to raise the finger at the time of negation and affirmation, then attributes the position of keeping it raised and steady until the end of the prayer (like in the Hanbali and Shafi'i schools) to Maulana Rashid Ahmed Gangohi and 'some other 'ulema.'

My question is, are these considered valid differences in the Hanafi school or are they considered shadh opinions?

I don't know about the attribution of this to Imam Abu Hanifah but the narration of Imam Muhammad has been criticised by Ibn al-Hummam a Hanafi Jurist. Even though quite alot of 'Ulama are of this opinion within the Hanafi framework, the Rajih is still not reciting al-Fatihah, this much i can tell you. As for it's permissibility that will be different from person to person or Scholar to Scholar (referring to the Hanafi). I have comes across a few that allow it and others that don't allow it. I opt for the opinion of not to recite it as i feel it is the safest - however i do recite it always in my mind (but not with tongue), at the same time i wouldn't have a problem with those that do recite it quietly.

As for the finger in Tashahhud again, the same as above, but in this instance i have seen many graduates of Darul 'Uloom (Bury and Kiddi) who practise this as a revised opinion, and i don't think it is a big issue again.

At the end, yes they are valid differences in the loose sense but we always have to differentiate between Mufta Bihi and give fatwa according to that and on the issues of subtleties we shouldn't be people of Ta'assub.

Wallahu A'lam.

[Thunderzee]

I appreciate your reply. Are there any other 'ulema whom you have come across that give preference to raising the finger in the second manner? I do not consider Bury and Kiddi graduates as 'ulema in the real sense.

And yes, I'm aware that the rajih is not to recite al-Fatihah.

[eCw56dzY]

I appreciate your reply. Are there any other 'ulema whom you have come across that give preference to raising the finger in the second manner? I do not consider Bury and Kiddi graduates as 'ulema in the real sense.

And yes, I'm aware that the rajih is not to recite al-Fatihah.

When i mean graduates, i mean "capable" ones, who then went on to do Iftaa and now issue Fatawa, like Mufti Mohammed Tosir Miah, arguably one of the top graduates of Darul Uloom Bury:

http://daruliftabirmingham.co.uk/rai...er-in-tashahud

Wallahu A'lam

[loan4younow]

Maulana A S Desai, Mujlisul Ulama of South Africa, also states that the finger needs to be kept raised. He mentioned it in one of his Question and Answer pages in The Majlis. I cannot recall which edition.

[fajerdoksdsaaker]

@abd7861:

Are you sure you read that in The Majlis? The reason I'm asking is because I know Maulana A.S. Desai very well, and have performed Salaah next to him many times; yet I have never seen him keep his index finger raised throughout the Tashahhud.

He raises it when saying "Ash-hadu al-Laa ilaaha illallaah", and lowers it when saying "wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan `Abduhu wa Rasooluh". He keeps his middle, ring and small finger in a circle, keeps his thumb on his middle finger, and his index finger stretched out on his lap. (Not pointing upwards, as is done in the Shaafi`ee Madh-hab.)

That's why I doubt whether Maulana wrote it in The Majlis, because he wouldn't write one thing and then act contrary to it.

Maulana A.S. Desai is a very sincere `Aalim; whatever he tells other people to do he does himself. For example, he regards all carbonated drinks (Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Fanta, Sprite, Schweppes, etc) to be Haraam (We may not agree with this Fatwaa of Maulana, but he has come to this conclusion through his research, Allahu `Alam.) , and he himself will never drink of it.

Also, I had the opportunity of meeting and performing Salaah next to some other very great `Ulama, one of them being Hazrat Hajji Ibrahim Nakhuda (a very old man now), who is one of the Mureedeen of Hazrat Shaykh-ul-Hadeeth Maulana Zakariyyah Saheb. His manner in the Tashahhud was the same as the one I described above, and the same goes for the other `Ulama.

Allahu `Alam.

[exschke]

Akhi Huzaifah - Maulana A S Desai in his earlier works such as Kitaabus Salaat states the same method as you have mentioned above. I have also seen him do this that is why when I read his statement in The Majlis it surprised me. That is why it has stuck in my memory. I will try to locate it but I cannot assure that I will find it as it was quite a while back.

If I have time I will e-mail him to clarify

You are very fortunate to be able to pray next to him. May Allah increase him khair.

[plalleste]

@abd7861:

Are you sure you read that in The Majlis? The reason I'm asking is because I know Maulana A.S. Desai very well, and have performed Salaah next to him many times; yet I have never seen him keep his index finger raised throughout the Tashahhud.

He raises it when saying "Ash-hadu al-Laa ilaaha illallaah", and lowers it when saying "wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan `Abduhu wa Rasooluh". He keeps his middle, ring and small finger in a circle, keeps his thumb on his middle finger, and his index finger stretched out on his lap. (Not pointing upwards, as is done in the Shaafi`ee Madh-hab.)

That's why I doubt whether Maulana wrote it in The Majlis, because he wouldn't write one thing and then act contrary to it.

Maulana A.S. Desai is a very sincere `Aalim; whatever he tells other people to do he does himself. For example, he regards all carbonated drinks (Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Fanta, Sprite, Schweppes, etc) to be Haraam (We may not agree with this Fatwaa of Maulana, but he has come to this conclusion through his research, Allahu `Alam.) , and he himself will never drink of it.

Also, I had the opportunity of meeting and performing Salaah next to some other very great `Ulama, one of them being Hazrat Hajji Ibrahim Nakhuda (a very old man now), who is one of the Mureedeen of Hazrat Shaykh-ul-Hadeeth Maulana Zakariyyah Saheb. His manner in the Tashahhud was the same as the one I described above, and the same goes for the other `Ulama.

Allahu `Alam.

Alhumdulillah I have managed to locate his answer confirming that the finger should be kept raised in The Majlis, Vol 19, Issue No 5 on page 4,

"Q. During Tashahhud should the forefinger be lowered on to the knee?
A. The forefinger should not rest on the knee or thigh. After lowering it, it should be suspended in mid-air."

You can find this edition of The Majlis on www.themajlis.co.za under The Majlis Downloads Section.

If you do not mind me enquiring did you visit him for Suhbah or were you in Port Elizabeth for some other reason?

[beatrisio]

Wa `Alaykum-us-Salaam wa Rahmatullah.

Jazaakallahu Khayran for finding the reference. Allahu A`lam why Maulana wrote that.


---

(P.S. No, I didn't visit Maulana for the sake of Suhbat. Actually, I live in Port Elizabeth, so I know all the `Ulama there, and I've visited and met some of the `Ulama of the other cities in South Africa. So I just visited Maulana at his house and spoke to him a few times. I'm not a student of his, I study under a different `Aalim.)

[Ztcgtqvb]

No problem akhi Huzaifah.

You are fortunate to live in Port Elizabeth alhamdulillah.

Take care.

[quorceopporce]

for posting Mufti Sahib's verdict.

Any other Hanafi Scholars of this opinion?

[55TRATTERENRY]

Alhumdulillah I have managed to locate his answer confirming that the finger should be kept raised in The Majlis, Vol 19, Issue No 5 on page 4,

"Q. During Tashahhud should the forefinger be lowered on to the knee?
A. The forefinger should not rest on the knee or thigh. After lowering it, it should be suspended in mid-air."

Sorry for re-bumping this, but to me this seems exactly the descrition of the same way in the "first way" (not the "revised opinion" of keeping it completely raised and steady).

In fact, it clearly states "after lowering it". While the sentence "suspended in mid-air" seems to refer to the fact that it shouldn't be completely such that it rests on one's thigh. In fact, after raising it for "la ilaha", one lowers it at "illa-Llah" while keeping the same position of the hand (ring position of the fingers, etc.), but not lowering it completely: it still remains in the "mid-air", not resting on one's thigh.

While the "other opinion" is that of keeping it raised and "steady" without lowering at all....

[Feelundseenna]

Maulana A.S. Desai is a very sincere `Aalim; whatever he tells other people to do he does himself. For example, he regards all carbonated drinks (Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Fanta, Sprite, Schweppes, etc) to be Haraam

Sorry, gonna bump it again because he gave a fatwa stating that coke and pespi are permissible. Confused now....
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/no...b-90bffa356499

[PaulRyansew]

Sorry, gonna bump it again because he gave a fatwa stating that coke and pespi are permissible. Confused now....
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/no...b-90bffa356499

Bro this fatwa is by Mufti EBRAHIM Desai.
while, in this thread Mawlana AHMAD SADIQ (A.S.) Desai was mentioned!

By the way, I still have to understand if the latter is actually also a Mufti, other then an 'alim-Maulana. Remember having read the second is true, here on Sf, but I keep to see people calling him as "Mufti"?..

[engideNedmupe]

Bro this fatwa is by Mufti EBRAHIM Desai.
while, in this thread Mawlana AHMAD SADIQ (A.S.) Desai was mentioned!

By the way, I still have to understand if the latter is actually also a Mufti, other then an 'alim-Maulana. Remember having read the second is true, here on Sf, but I keep to see people calling him as "Mufti"?..

ohhhh....
Thats embarrassing, lol.

Bro, whats the difference between an 'alim and a mufti? I always think of them as the same.

[steevyjeors]

Bro, whats the difference between an 'alim and a mufti? I always think of them as the same.

A Mufti is a 'Alim who, after his 'Alim course/darse nizami, went on studying several more years specializing in Iftaa (sciences related to giving fatawa).
So, every Mufti is a 'Alim (scholar), but not all 'Ulama' are also Mufti (only a portion of them who added Iftaa studies to their "curriculum").

[10traistintarry]

A Mufti is a 'Alim who, after his 'Alim course/darse nizami, went on studying several more years specializing in Iftaa (sciences related to giving fatawa).
So, every Mufti is a 'Alim (scholar), but not all 'Ulama' are also Mufti (only a portion of them who added Iftaa studies to their "curriculum").