[fiettariaps]

Asalamualaykum

I have seen this video recently about a Quran which I recognise from www.QuranProject.org. It is very interesting that these scientists have written inside this book to say that the book does not represent their true opinions at the time and that the whole Zindani event for miracles in the Quran was a fraud.

This was quite a shock to me to learn about. What do others think of this?

[TimEricsson]

What the bald guy says neither becomes credible as such just because he managed to obtain some chopped interviews and put them on YouTube.

But first of all who runs this "Quranproject" thing and who publishes it? Any idea? Is it reviewed by credible scholars?

[SpyRemo]

A quote from the book "Religious reformers in Islam" :

The following fatwa of Hadrat Ahmad ibn Hajar al-Makki, a prominent Islamic scholar, is sufficient to understand how heretical and harmful Sayyid Qutb's tafsir, Fi dilal al-Qur'an, is:

"The law courts should take preventive measures against those who, instead of quoting from the tafsirs of Islamic scholars, write their own ideas as tafsir and push such tafsirs in front of the people. Such tafsirs are heretical and superstitious. Men of religious posts who publish them are heretics endeavoring to turn others away from the right path."

[saturninus.ribb]

Asalamualaykum

I have seen this video recently about a Quran which I recognise from www.QuranProject.org. It is very interesting that these scientists have written inside this book to say that the book does not represent their true opinions at the time and that the whole Zindani event for miracles in the Quran was a fraud.

This was quite a shock to me to learn about. What do others think of this?

I would not take therationalizer seriously. He has been trying to prove that Quran was not a miracle, and in doing so, he often neglected the replies that counter his points. He tried to present his case using scientific data, but when more in-depth data presented to counter the first argument, he just completely ignored it. A few cases come to mind, for example regarding Prophet Sulaiman () and ants in the Quran. Firstly this group will say that ants can't speak, but when the latest findings (2009/2010) reported in a peer reviewed publication about the accoustic communication properties among ants, they twist it to say that ants can't speak "like human", and we all know that the Quran never mentioned that ants speak like human like they claimed.

As for the scientists, I'm not surprised about it at all actually. Firstly, the interviews were edited in such a way to make the author's view amplified. That's why some of the interviews were cut right in the middle of answering the author's questions. Secondly, one can find myriad of personal reasons to not accept Islam, and ultimately he/she will have to answer about it in front of Allah , exactly as told in the Quran about trading the hereafter for this short dunya life. Thirdly, the author only interviewed those who never became a Muslim, but not those who reverted to Islam.

Allah Knows Best.

[yasmin]

What the bald guy says neither becomes credible as such just because he managed to obtain some chopped interviews and put them on YouTube.

But first of all who runs this "Quranproject" thing and who publishes it? Any idea? Is it reviewed by credible scholars?

It now seems that it was Zindani who did the interview chopping. The full uncut interviews are available here. So as we can see nothing has been taken out of context by the bald man.

I don't know anything about The Quran Project. They are just one of many Islamic websites using these false statements for Dawah.

[Flalafuse]

oh, another thing. The scientists can retract or say whatever they want, but the whole unedited video about the event, what they said at the time and so on are widely distributed, and will be the proofs against them on the Judgement Day.

"misrepresentation", huh? Funny how it's used to wash one's hands free of anything at all.

Allah Knows Best.

[PharmACT]

They twist it to say that ants can't speak "like human", and we all know that the Quran never mentioned that ants speak like human like they claimed.

Could you show me where he said this?

As for the scientists, I'm not surprised about it at all actually. Firstly, the interviews were edited in such a way to make the author's view amplified. That's why some of the interviews were cut right in the middle of answering the author's questions. Secondly, one can find myriad of personal reasons to not accept Islam, and ultimately he/she will have to answer about it in front of Allah , exactly as told in the Quran about trading the hereafter for this short dunya life. Thirdly, the author only interviewed those who never became a Muslim, but not those who reverted to Islam.

I personally think the whole credibility of this entire affair has been destroyed, because Zindani has outright (and deliberately) deceived us.

[unmalryAlalry]

oh, another thing. The scientists can retract or say whatever they want, but the whole unedited video about the event, what they said at the time and so on are widely distributed, and will be the proofs against them on the Judgement Day.

The unedited video footage is not available anywhere. I have looked for Alfred Kroner, Tom Armstrong, and Bill Hay unedited clips but they do not seem to exist.

[abouthotels]

Could you show me where he said this?

There's a thread that debated about the ants story here on SF. And I personally commented on a channel own by a friend of therationalizer about this to the extent that we both agreed to contact the editor of the journal to ask a confirmation that the journal (which has reported of the accoustic properties of the ant) is a peer-reviewed publication or not. And surely we got a reply from the editor of the publication with a confirmation that it's peer-reviewed. And lastly the islamophobe guy just banned me from commenting his channel (of course, after he twisted his argument that the Quran say ants "speak like human"). It happened a year or two years back, so I don't remember his channel (never went back to his channel anymore).

Regarding the event done in the 80's/90's about the Quran and the scientists, those unedited videos should be available on youtubes, and I've seen them before.

Allah Knows Best.

[agolutuaddiff]

There's a thread that debated about the ants story here on SF.

URL?

And I personally commented on a channel own by a friend of therationalizer

We cannot hold this man accountable for the actions and words of someone else.

And lastly the islamophobe guy just banned me from commenting his channel (of course, after he twisted his argument that the Quran say ants "speak like human").

So it wasn't this therationalizer guy that actually said that?

Regarding the event done in the 80's/90's about the Quran and the scientists, those unedited videos should be available on youtubes, and I've seen them before.

They are not, I have spent over a month looking for them. The only clips you can find are from the post-edited Zindani "This is the truth" videos, there are no copies of the unedited interviews. Although I would dearly love for you to prove me wrong and show me where they are because at the moment it is pretty obvious that Zindani lied and so nothing he has produced should be trusted.

[machpamb]

URL?

try to search for "garet122" on the forum. He often copied and pasted from anti-Islamic websites on this forum and others too (and often comes back with other issues after the previous ones have been answered).

So it wasn't this therationalizer guy that actually said that?

I don't remember exactly if it was him commented on the channel that I have debated on, but the both of them communicated between them, so I termed them as a group. The channel owner that I debated on wasn't him, and the debate itself wasn't on a video, but in the comment section, so I don't think you can find any videos that state explicitly that Quran's error as "ants speaking like human". Unless they made a new video after that.

They are not, I have spent over a month looking for them. The only clips you can find are from the post-edited Zindani "This is the truth" videos, there are no copies of the unedited interviews. Although I would dearly love for you to prove me wrong and show me where they are because at the moment it is pretty obvious that Zindani lied and so nothing he has produced should be trusted.

I've seen the video before, and in it a doctor from Thailand publicly announced his syahada. The doctor was responsible for studying the verse about human flesh being burnt in hell, where the skin will be repaired as new everytime the flesh is burnt. The reason for his conversion was that the verse was spot on with his knowledge, that pain receptors are all located within the skin.

Allah Knows Best.

[Twendypreency]

regarding the ant talking, I remember my colleague telling me that while discussing the issue he came across some recent studies which suggest that ants do infact communicate through some verbal method. I will have to ask him to get me some link.

edit: oh the previous discussion was here : http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?83789

[corriffuniee]

Asalamualaykum

I have seen this video recently about a Quran which I recognise from www.QuranProject.org. It is very interesting that these scientists have written inside this book to say that the book does not represent their true opinions at the time and that the whole Zindani event for miracles in the Quran was a fraud.

This was quite a shock to me to learn about. What do others think of this?

Sorry but as a newcomer, this thread is very confusing. What is the Quran Project? I stopped watching the video as soon as that man on video started talking with that silly poster and called thejinnandtonic show. I don't want to watch that sorry, it seemed like he was about to mock Islam, and I try to limit how much stuff like that i see. But I do want to know please, could someone tell me is the Quran project legitimate or not?

[muytreda]

try to search for "garet122" on the forum

Garet122? Not TheRationalizer?

I don't remember exactly if it was him commented on the channel that I have debated on, but the both of them communicated between them, so I termed them as a group.

Oh I understand. Someone who you think therationalizer knows said it, so it's incorrect to say that therationalizer said it.

I've seen the video before, and in it a doctor from Thailand publicly announced his syahada. The doctor was responsible for studying the verse about human flesh being burnt in hell, where the skin will be repaired as new everytime the flesh is burnt. The reason for his conversion was that the verse was spot on with his knowledge, that pain receptors are all located within the skin.

Yes, I have seen that too. What I want to see are the videos you said exist of the unedited interview footage, I don't think they exist. By the way, people knew that nerve endings were in the skin long before the 7th century. It's not hard to realise, if you burn off enough of your skin the resulting scar tissue has no sensation.

[Nurse_sero]

Sorry but as a newcomer, this thread is very confusing. What is the Quran Project? I stopped watching the video as soon as that man on video started talking with that silly poster and called thejinnandtonic show.

I didn't notice a poster. Actually it is quite an interesting show. I saw on their tweeter feed that on 25th August they are discussing iERA's embryology paper.

I don't want to watch that sorry, it seemed like he was about to mock Islam, and I try to limit how much stuff like that i see. But I do want to know please, could someone tell me is the Quran project legitimate or not?

They certainly think they are legitimate but they are copying false miracle claims from a man named "Zindani" who clearly deceived and fabricated. These lies are being copied on various Islamic websites and it looks silly

Alfred Kroner - http://www.thisistruth.org/truth.php?f=OriginOfEarth
Pete Palmer - http://www.thisistruth.org/truth.php?f=OriginOfEarth
William Hay - http://thisistruth.org/truth.php?f=SeasAndOceans
Tom Armstrong - http://thisistruth.org/truth.php?f=Astronomy

Websites like this should be ashamed

[SannyGlow]

Garet122? Not TheRationalizer?

I guess either one would be fine. Btw Moulana AbuHajira has posted the link to the thread.

Oh I understand. Someone who you think therationalizer knows said it, so it's incorrect to say that therationalizer said it.

You were right, I've checked my emails and it was TheIslammiracle channel. But either way I couldn't care less if it was theIslammiracle or the rationalizer, as they would use the same arguments (and have been proven wrong). I don't remember the last time I went to therationalizer channel, but the comment I made about therationalizer use of tafsir Ibn Kathir to prove scientific errors in the Quran was actually directed at him. Many Muslims pointed that out in his comment sections before I put my comment there, but the video wasn't taken out at the time. Not sure if it's still available or not.

I actually corresponded with therationalizer several times through emails but stopped after a while. He said that he studied Arabics for a while;
"started to learn classical Arabic, but quite frankly my teacher was a bigot who obviously had problems with me not being a Muslim so I left. I found another course locally but it wasn't nearly as enjoyable so I left.

Knowing Arabic shouldn't be a requirement to know that a message was sent from an all-powerful entity which is supposed to be for all the people of the world. It's more evidently a false claim when even native Arab speakers cannot see the alleged miracle because they don't speak a 7th century variation of the language."

and he quoted these names to back him up;
"Al-Jaʿd ibn Dirham, tutor to the Umayyad Caliph Marwan said:
The Qur'an's eloquence is not a miracle and people can do the like of it and better.

The Mu'tazilite scholar Abu Musa said:
People are able to produce the like of the Qur’an as regards eloquence, and composition and rhetorical beauty.

The 11th century Sunni scholar Abu al-Qushairy said:
We do not claim that everything in the Qurʾān is in the highest rank of eloquence.

Ibn al-Rawandi (former Mu'tazilite scholar) (d. 910 ad) said:
Indeed the Qurʾān is not the speech of a wise god. In it are contradictions and mistakes and passages that are in the realms of the absurd."

These are the names often repeated on anti-Islamic websites. I guess he's already set to not believe what the Quran says, no matter what (for now, don't know about the future) and will find other excuses not to accept it, Allahu A'lam.

The points above can easily be refuted by many Muslims. A few reverts, like brother Hamza Tsortis actually explained in detail about the eloquence of the Quran with clear definitions of what are the standards used and how do they applied to Quran.

They certainly think they are legitimate but they are copying false miracle claims from a man named "Zindani" who clearly deceived and fabricated. These lies are being copied on various Islamic websites and it looks silly

Ah ok, so you were looking for the interview videos done by "Zindani". I thought you were looking for an old footage of the scientists in a press conference in the 80's.

I'm not sure about the exact interview videos. My suggestion is;
1. To email the site directly and ask for the video or for full transcript of the interview,
2. Then to contact those professors directly to confirm that;
a. If the interviews did take place;
b. and if the interview indeed did take place, they might argue that the content of the interview might be different (and we have no way of knowing who is more truthful). But I guess that's another issue.

Allah Knows Best.

[Aswdwdfg]

You were right, I've checked my emails and it was TheIslammiracle channel. But either way I couldn't care less if it was theIslammiracle or the rationalizer, as they would use the same arguments

I always care for the truth from proof, hence my name. It's good that you discovered you were wrong and felt able to tell everyone because there are many people who will not do this. It's not right to claim that this guy would argue the same way though, you cannot know that.

These are the names often repeated on anti-Islamic websites. I guess he's already set to not believe what the Quran says, no matter what (for now, don't know about the future) and will find other excuses not to accept it, Allahu A'lam.

Why did they say those things? Surely they understood the style of Arabic better than we ever could today?

The points above can easily be refuted by many Muslims. A few reverts, like brother Hamza Tsortis actually explained in detail about the eloquence of the Quran with clear definitions of what are the standards used and how do they applied to Quran.

He doesn't speak Arabic though does he?

Ah ok, so you were looking for the interview videos done by "Zindani". I thought you were looking for an old footage of the scientists in a press conference in the 80's.

The Zindani footage is clearly edited to make it look like those scientists are saying one thing, whereas the footage on this other channel has completely unedited interviews with the same people clearly stating that they were misrepresented. For example Zindani claimed that he asked Bill Hay what he thought the source of the Quran was and Bill replied "I would think it would be the divine being", but in the unedited video Bill said that Zindani had spent a long time building up a completely fictitious scenario to which Bill's reply could be the only answer and that once he had recorded Bill saying those words he cut it out and lied about what the question was.

There is no unedited footage of interviews.

I'm not sure about the exact interview videos. My suggestion is;
1. To email the site directly and ask for the video or for full transcript of the interview,
2. Then to contact those professors directly to confirm that;
a. If the interviews did take place;
b. and if the interview indeed did take place, they might argue that the content of the interview might be different (and we have no way of knowing who is more truthful). But I guess that's another issue.

Already done, I got a reply this morning "I will consider it"

[Stovegeothnon]

I always care for the truth from proof, hence my name. It's good that you discovered you were wrong and felt able to tell everyone because there are many people who will not do this. It's not right to claim that this guy would argue the same way though, you cannot know that.

Well, to some extent yes, you can tell if one will argue this way or that way, or one's line of thinking (generally) after corresponding with them for some time. However that doesn't mean that anyone knows for sure of what will the other person say exactly in the future, as that's the unseen knowledge.

The mixed up was due to not checking the recorded conversation (due to the feel that it's not necessary to do so). That's simply coz I didn't give any importance to the ideas purported by the names mentioned (due to the abundance of the arguments made by other Muslims that counter their points).

Why did they say those things? Surely they understood the style of Arabic better than we ever could today?

The numbers quoted to prove that Quran is not eloquence is dwarfed by the numbers of those who will testify otherwise and can say why (that is able to explain the rules needed objectively and how to apply that rules consistently to any subject discussed).

He doesn't speak Arabic though does he?

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-...mitable-quran/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sca_OUCn84

The Zindani footage is clearly edited to make it look like those scientists are saying one thing, whereas the footage on this other channel has completely unedited interviews with the same people clearly stating that they were misrepresented. For example Zindani claimed that he asked Bill Hay what he thought the source of the Quran was and Bill replied "I would think it would be the divine being", but in the unedited video Bill said that Zindani had spent a long time building up a completely fictitious scenario to which Bill's reply could be the only answer and that once he had recorded Bill saying those words he cut it out and lied about what the question was.

There is no unedited footage of interviews.

Already done, I got a reply this morning "I will consider it"

brother, you stress that as your name implied, proof is extremely important. The lacking of any evidence, as in this case, the videos or anything that point to the interview, doesn't mean that the interview never happened. Regardless of what's the content of the interview, I believe you can just simply email the professors to confirm if the interview did happen. If it did, only then to go and scrutinize the discussions. To simply say that "Zindani" is a fraud due to our own inability to find evidence, is not the evidence in itself, and it's substandard to use that to judge "Zindani" without the benefit of the doubt.

Allahu A'lam.

[Mumeseest]

To simply say that "Zindani" is a fraud due to our own inability to find evidence, is not the evidence in itself.

Can we put it in this way that Zindani asked genuine questions and then used them to offer an interpretation that is in line with Islam. The experts then realized that they do not like the end product. If there is some over reach in the first part - on Zindani's part then there is some cheap defense on part of the Physicians Without Borders as well as the experts.

[Jffxljtw]

Can we put it in this way that Zindani asked genuine questions and then used them to offer an interpretation that is in line with Islam. The experts then realized that they do not like the end product. If there is some over reach in the first part - on Zindani's part then there is some cheap defense on part of the Physicians Without Borders as well as the experts.

brother Maripat.

I personally believe that's the case here. Hopefully brother TruthFromProof will get some answers from the professors and others and can be shared here as well.