[PickEmUp]

Now the need of the hour is for Islam to present a fair and just economical system as an alternate to this baised casino of so called free market system. But, I do not see any effort being made whatsover by any section of Muslim society, most I see is that Muslims who are very religious go to Islamic banks for mortgage financing and thats about it. Imam Hosien does list all the ills of western "free market system" but he does not provide a solution as to what people can do at the micro level. Yes one could have bought gold and silver, but its not practiccal as you will still have to deal with "fait" paper currency.

I know that there are some halaal investment vehicles (both equity and bonds) in Malaysia and in some parts of the gulf, but I am not sure how they do their investments and what sort of returns they generate.

At the mirco-level , several groups are resisting againt the internation satanic bankers . One such group is active in Indonesia.
Check this.
################
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...UFKXgi2SGK-s2g

Indonesia group prefers gold as dollar loses shine

Guided by a Scottish-born convert to Islam, a group of devout Indonesian Muslims is shunning "worthless" paper money in favour of gold and silver coins for their daily transactions
The followers of Sheikh Abdalqadir as-Sufi -- born Ian Dallas -- trade goods like food, medicine, clothes and phone cards with gold dinars and silver dirhams in line with a strict interpretation of Islamic law.

##########

For other groups . check this.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ional-Bankers-!!

[mortgrhhh]

At the mirco-level , several groups are resisting againt the internation satanic bankers . One such group is active in Indonesia.

Indonesia group prefers gold as dollar loses shine

Guided by a Scottish-born convert to Islam, a group of devout Indonesian Muslims is shunning "worthless" paper money in favour of gold and silver coins for their daily transactions
The followers of Sheikh Abdalqadir as-Sufi -- born Ian Dallas -- trade goods like food, medicine, clothes and phone cards with gold dinars and silver dirhams in line with a strict interpretation of Islamic law.

Bro, with price of gold going up in the last decade, we have started to see a lot of gold bugs nowadays, with almost all speculating further rise in gold price. The gold has already gone up from about $220-240 /ounce (2001) to $1686 /ounce (today closing). Whereas silver has gone from about $1-2 /ounce to $ 32 /ounce. Both these items are in bubble territory.

Bro Pawlak will not tell you that, but let me tell you that the biggest investor in silver commodities is no other than JPMorgan Chase, go figure. Both gold and silver are purely speculative play at this moment, with hedge fund and Investment Bankers betting big time (the best way tofigure it out is to take any stock and look at its investment holdings) . But imagine what will happen to the poor investor when these speculators withdraw from this market space?. However, there are chances that gold might fall by about 50% (to say $900 /ounce), if that happens than those investing in gold/silver or are buying gold and silver coins will get badly hurt. It always good to be diversified in your investments, that what I learned in graduate school.

Another thing is that for anyone to trade gold and silver coins with another commodities, they need to have an exchange like CME (Chicago Merchantile Exchcange), so incase if the prices of gold and silver plunges, there can still be a fair trade between commodities (gold vs rice etc).

[errolespopume]

There's just too much to read through so I'm going to put my two-dirhems in for whatever they're worth...

Gold is not the solution - just say no to gold [edit: at least say no to the kind that is held on speculation and not actually in your purse in the form of coins].

The problem I have with the current system is that it simply is not as easy as one would like to believe to break free from. Not only is usury infused in every commodity, indentured slavery, raping of resources and an insatiable appetite for stuff, stuff and more stuff is everywhere - in our homes, on our backs, in our water... Even if you want to break-free by moving out into the country and create a Muslim colony in the middle of a country (much like the hutterites do), you still need to work within the system that is there... purchasing the land, purchasing the materials to build with, the tools and equipment to build with... the clothes to wear, the dishes and silverware... Almost everything, even the water we drink, is tied to money.

From the food we eat to the clothes on our backs... there is some form of injustice sewn into every seam or there is the sweat and tears of someone so remote to us, we can't even imagine them at the other end of a basket of strawberries.

How do we remove all that? On an individual level, we can strive for half-measure solutions by striving not to take or give interest but that will only be superficial since there will be some kind of interest and other injustice built into everything we purchase. We can even try to live minimalist lives, knowing no matter what we buy it will be tainted and trying to keep it to a minimum. The question is... on a global and individual level, what can be done to at least break free from this monster of a machine - there must be some space that is uncorrupt - where? What does it look like? How would it work? How inclusive would it be?... it is not so far-fetched to conceive of the current financial system (in its entirety) as the workings of the shaytan or a dajjal for me.

Struggling to live in line with the Qur'an not just for ourselves but for all of humanity - that is the problem we need to find a solution to. The solution seems easier to comprehend and visualize than the current mechanism we've all had a hand in created and sustaining.

[bashansasasasa]

Bro Pawlak will not tell you that, but let me tell you that the biggest investor in silver commodities is no other than JPMorgan Chase, go figure. Both gold and silver are purely speculative play at this moment, with hedge fund and Investment Bankers betting big time (the best way tofigure it out is to take any stock and look at its investment holdings) . But imagine what will happen to the poor investor when these speculators withdraw from this market space?. However, there are chances that gold might fall by about 50% (to say $900 /ounce), if that happens than those investing in gold/silver or are buying gold and silver coins will get badly hurt. It always good to be diversified in your investments, that what I learned in graduate school. Well put. this is exactly whats going to happen within short period of time.
The Gold market is going through a 'mania' phase right now. It will drop significantly .

[beatrisio]

Okay, can someone please explain to me what diversified and Islamically sound investments look like:

• [1]What would they be?
  [2]How would they work?
  [3]How accessible would they be - would everybody have equal access or would the current system carry through (with only a small percentage of people holding vast amounts of wealth, resources and power)?
  [4]How sustainable would they be?

[edit: preferably those investments that would allow and promote halal exchange between Muslim and Muslim (and anyone else we would need to deal with) and would allow and promote the communal health and stability of our entire ummah. In brief/point-form, plain, easy to understand, layman's terms please.]

[AgowlSown]

transitory
Now the need of the hour is for Islam to present a fair and just economical system as an alternate to this baised casino of so called free market system. But, I do not see any effort being made whatsover by any section of Muslim society, most I see is that Muslims who are very religious go to Islamic banks for mortgage financing and thats about it. Imam Hosien does list all the ills of western "free market system" but he does not provide a solution as to what people can do at the micro level. Yes one could have bought gold and silver, but its not practiccal as you will still have to deal with "fait" paper currency. Well I have been reading some of the other posts on SF after seeing this one. It makes me depressed to see in reality there is no real solution given by anyone. Everyone is analyzing the problems of usury.

I am not sure if we do have a fair and just Islamic system in place . Even the concept of Islamic banking as it exist at present is viewed as flawed by some.

Radical ideas of cutting off from the rest of humanity to start a new system is bordering on fiction. I must say after seriously studying the matter I think we are already beyond help.

[globjgtyf]

Okay, can someone please explain to me what diversified and Islamically sound investments look like:

• [1]What would they be?
  [2]How would they work?
  [3]How accessible would they be - would everybody have equal access or would the current system carry through (with only a small percentage of people holding vast amounts of wealth, resources and power)?
  [4]How sustainable would they be?

[edit: preferably those investments that would allow and promote halal exchange between Muslim and Muslim (and anyone else we would need to deal with) and would allow and promote the communal health and stability of our entire ummah. In brief/point-form, plain, easy to understand, layman's terms please.]

Look here if you are looking for a MF or group of investments that are sorta Islamically OK;

http://www.amanafunds.com/

[Jorcelirl]

Bro, with price of gold going up in the last decade, we have started to see a lot of gold bugs nowadays, with almost all speculating further rise in gold price. The gold has already gone up from about $220-240 /ounce (2001) to $1686 /ounce (today closing). Whereas silver has gone from about $1-2 /ounce to $ 32 /ounce. Both these items are in bubble territory.

Bro Pawlak will not tell you that, but let me tell you that the biggest investor in silver commodities is no other than JPMorgan Chase, go figure. Both gold and silver are purely speculative play at this moment, with hedge fund and Investment Bankers betting big time (the best way tofigure it out is to take any stock and look at its investment holdings) . But imagine what will happen to the poor investor when these speculators withdraw from this market space?. However, there are chances that gold might fall by about 50% (to say $900 /ounce), if that happens than those investing in gold/silver or are buying gold and silver coins will get badly hurt. It always good to be diversified in your investments, that what I learned in graduate school.

Another thing is that for anyone to trade gold and silver coins with another commodities, they need to have an exchange like CME (Chicago Merchantile Exchcange), so incase if the prices of gold and silver plunges, there can still be a fair trade between commodities (gold vs rice etc).

Yes, the prices of silver and gold have tumbled before, sometimes from an arbitrary change in trading laws. Suddenly some types of transaction are forbidden and the prices tumble unbelievably. There may be other causes.

I read there are "alternative economists" who therefore propose "alternative currencies" backed not by just petroleum or gold or silver or a few precious commodities, but by a whole bucketload of commodities. I get the idea that it's intended to smooth out extremes of price due to fluctuation and speculation in a few commodities, making a more stable system.

I've been curious about it since my lecturer made me read Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful" more than ten years ago.

Also some science fiction books I've read with concepts like "gift economy" and "eco-economics". One science fiction book I read proposed an innovative "negative interest rate" so that some portion of hoarded wealth returns to the community... it made me laugh because it's an OLD idea. It's just our Zakat system! Zakat, normally described as charity or tax, can also be thought of as "negative interest"!

But mainly those books made me realize how much of modern economics is arbitrary rather than natural. It's there just because people in power say so.

[Scukonah]

Bro, with price of gold going up in the last decade, we have started to see a lot of gold bugs nowadays, with almost all speculating further rise in gold price. The gold has already gone up from about $220-240 /ounce (2001) to $1686 /ounce (today closing). Whereas silver has gone from about $1-2 /ounce to $ 32 /ounce. Both these items are in bubble territory.

Bro Pawlak will not tell you that, but let me tell you that the biggest investor in silver commodities is no other than JPMorgan Chase, go figure. Both gold and silver are purely speculative play at this moment, with hedge fund and Investment Bankers betting big time (the best way tofigure it out is to take any stock and look at its investment holdings) . But imagine what will happen to the poor investor when these speculators withdraw from this market space?. However, there are chances that gold might fall by about 50% (to say $900 /ounce), if that happens than those investing in gold/silver or are buying gold and silver coins will get badly hurt. It always good to be diversified in your investments, that what I learned in graduate school.

Another thing is that for anyone to trade gold and silver coins with another commodities, they need to have an exchange like CME (Chicago Merchantile Exchcange), so incase if the prices of gold and silver plunges, there can still be a fair trade between commodities (gold vs rice etc).

Yes, the prices of silver and gold have tumbled before, sometimes from an arbitrary change in trading laws. Suddenly some types of transaction are forbidden and the prices tumble unbelievably. There may be other causes.

I read there are "alternative economists" who therefore propose "alternative currencies" backed not by just petroleum or gold or silver or a few precious commodities, but by a whole bucketload of commodities. I get the idea that it's intended to smooth out extremes of price due to fluctuation and speculation in a few commodities, making a more stable system.

I've been curious about it since my lecturer made me read Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful" more than ten years ago.

Also some science fiction books I've read with concepts like "gift economy" and "eco-economics". One science fiction book I read proposed an innovative "negative interest rate" so that some portion of hoarded wealth returns to the community... it made me laugh because it's an OLD idea. It's just our Zakat system! Zakat, normally described as charity or tax, can also be thought of as "negative interest"!

But mainly those books made me realize how much of modern economics is arbitrary rather than natural. It's there just because people in power say so.

[LarpBulaBus]

Look here if you are looking for a MF or group of investments that are sorta Islamically OK;

http://www.amanafunds.com/

I am not looking for mutual funds or investments personally. Given the current economic landscape, I wanted to know what our ideal would look like and insha'Allah work towards the ideal. for the link.

[mrllxp]

I am not looking for mutual funds or investments personally. Given the current economic landscape, I wanted to know what our ideal would look like and insha'Allah work towards the ideal. for the link.

So far , I have found few Muslim groups trying to establish an alternative economic model. One such group has set up a mint. Check these links
#################
http://www.dinarpeople.com/

http://www.islamicmint.com/
#################

[valentinesdayyy]

So far , I have found few Muslim groups trying to establish an alternative economic model. One such group has set up a mint. Check these links
#################
http://www.dinarpeople.com/

http://www.islamicmint.com/
#################

There is not much useful information on these website, the first one is totally useless, it forces a vistor to first create a username/password to see anything on that website, I can't take them seriously. Second one has some information but how is it any useful?

[SergeyMaikov]

Okay, can someone please explain to me what diversified and Islamically sound investments look like:

• [1]What would they be?
  [2]How would they work?
  [3]How accessible would they be - would everybody have equal access or would the current system carry through (with only a small percentage of people holding vast amounts of wealth, resources and power)?
  [4]How sustainable would they be?

[edit: preferably those investments that would allow and promote halal exchange between Muslim and Muslim (and anyone else we would need to deal with) and would allow and promote the communal health and stability of our entire ummah. In brief/point-form, plain, easy to understand, layman's terms please.]

This is exactly what I was talking about ..... I see the menu but I do not see the meal .

Like many I also think we have become a people of slogan . Just like in real life
individuals can only change their own reality when they strive hard so too as an Ummah.
We have become a people of slogans and arguments and idealistic sentiments .
Not people who live in the present trying to do the job they are supposed to do .

[Mmccqrtb]

Islamic Banking and Finance: Future of the Financial World Order

Shakeel Ahamad , H. K. Pradhan

Future belongs to Islamic Banking and Finance (IBF), if one is ready to take a cue from the subprime crisis, Lehman brothers and many other giants vanishing from the financial landscape, global economic melt-down, impending double-dip recession, trillions of dollars belonging to 99% common men pumped (in the name of bailouts) by governments into the coffers of behemoth corporations (1%), and subsequent Occupy Wall Street movement. The question is, does IBF provide a better solution? IBF has already proven to be a formidable claimant to be the future of banking and finance, with 400% growth booked during last 7 years, amid severest of recessionary pressures. IBF promises to internalize ethics into business, remove the gamble of greed leading to ever-rising debt burden, and gift the inhabitants of this earth a financial world order founded on real assets and rock-solid humanitarian values of fairness & distributive justice. By replacing interest with shared risk & profit, delivering real output, not worthless paper, IBF nurtures a system that delivers public good, not ravenous self-indulgence. Are they keeping the promises? Is IBF ephemeral? How can it become sustainable?

[dserbokim]

IBF has already proven to be a formidable claimant to be the future of banking and finance, with 400% growth booked during last 7 years, amid severest of recessionary pressures. IBF promises to internalize ethics into business, remove the gamble of greed leading to ever-rising debt burden, and gift the inhabitants of this earth a financial world order founded on real assets and rock-solid humanitarian values of fairness & distributive justice. By replacing interest with shared risk & profit, delivering real output, not worthless paper, IBF nurtures a system that delivers public good, not ravenous self-indulgence[/B].

This in itself is a no go for the current capitalist/interest based financial system of Wall Street (as well as all over the globe). Anyone who will try to bring this system into play will likely be setup for failure even before they start. The supports and benefactors of current financial system will never let it take off. Though there are indexes such as Dow Jones Islamic Index etc, but any large scale change is not possible at this time.

Current financial system puts itself ahead of its clients, gambles with others money, and is beyond the reach of any law on the planet earth. It’s only agenda is to amass as much wealth as possible, it’s a conscience-less, ethic-less system driven by greed of amassing more wealth next quarter than the previous one, ad infinitum. It’s a corrupt system that cannot be replaced in the near term as those who benefit from this system have their roots deeply entrenched in all section of governance. You can find these people/organizations and their sympathizers (with conflict of interest – like shareholders, ex-employees, etc) deeply entrenched in executive, judicial, and legislative branches of government. It’s not possible for anyone to stand against them and survive.

[raskrutkaseo]

We're all implicated.

[6ZCo3xuK]

This in itself is a no go for the current capitalist/interest based financial system of Wall Street (as well as all over the globe). Anyone who will try to bring this system into play will likely be setup for failure even before they start. The supports and benefactors of current financial system will never let it take off. Though there are indexes such as Dow Jones Islamic Index etc, but any large scale change is not possible at this time.

Current financial system puts itself ahead of its clients, gambles with others money, and is beyond the reach of any law on the planet earth. It’s only agenda is to amass as much wealth as possible, it’s a conscience-less, ethic-less system driven by greed of amassing more wealth next quarter than the previous one, ad infinitum. It’s a corrupt system that cannot be replaced in the near term as those who benefit from this system have their roots deeply entrenched in all section of governance. You can find these people/organizations and their sympathizers (with conflict of interest – like shareholders, ex-employees, etc) deeply entrenched in executive, judicial, and legislative branches of government. It’s not possible for anyone to stand against them and survive.

To avoid forecasting can we make some changes, for example, from
It’s not possible for anyone to stand against them and survive to
It’s very difficult for anyone to stand against them and survive Etc.

[Phouepou]

To avoid forecasting can we make some changes, for example, from

to


Etc.

Agreed for fixing it.

[wmtravelservice]

REALLY very different topic and MOST important

i couldn't read all post, but if 'technically' we think then there are 17 video with heading 'economic terrorist' where speaker explain how paper currency come from gold/silver currency & what is it's disadvantages and how we can solve it without breaking any government rule, i couldn't watch all videos but i watched 7 videos and if i say frankly then they are awesome.
if anyone interested then i can post link, but post are in Urdu language, but now few videos we can get in English also, but speakers are different in them. but really Muslim must watch them once.

[StevenS]

REALLY very different topic and MOST important

i couldn't read all post, but if 'technically' we think then there are 17 video with heading 'economic terrorist' where speaker explain how paper currency come from gold/silver currency & what is it's disadvantages and how we can solve it without breaking any government rule, i couldn't watch all videos but i watched 7 videos and if i say frankly then they are awesome.
if anyone interested then i can post link, but post are in Urdu language, but now few videos we can get in English also, but speakers are different in them. but really Muslim must watch them once.

Plz post the links .