[rolex-buy]

Economy is bigger instrument of residual colonialism - bigger than military as an instrument of modern western colonialism. The economy related topics do get a mention at SF but just like science the efforts are not in proportion to the importance of the topic.

To kick start let us take this very recent lecture by Imran Hossein Sb.
He does not mince his words - a badly required commodity.
Of course there is a theory involved by his argument is not trivial.

[letittbe]

stop buying coca cola

[TouccuraLar]

Many many years ago I met this Shiekh in US, he is right about economic predictions and many things he said then about economica are almost all becoming true. If I am not wrong, he used to work for IMF or World bank before he became what he is now, and held a decent position there. THough I do not agree with some of his end times prophecies in context of how he interprets the Hadith (he interpretations are so different from the mainstream), but on economics, he probably know a great deal more and is pretty spot on. Allahu Allam!

[courlerwele]

Keep away from control, from becoming a slave to the global system (don't touch the 'gold')... okay, but how? Even if you were to stop buying coca-cola (for instance), and you want to switch to root-beer and make it for yourself at home... you still need to get the materials somehow. Any transaction is going to be tainted. I would LOVE to get away from such a system and it isn't just Muslims that are starting to understand the dangers here, although we see the issue in a very different way. There are some who are trying to live money-less but I've always wondered how that concept would work on a global scale. Those who are doing it are somewhat privileged in that they can borrow from their neighbour or use free internet in the library etc. (but they are still obtaining stuff/services that are tainted by the global system); still, can we all do so when everything we do is so intimately involved with the system? We're all implicated, even if we don't deal in interest.

I'm stuck on the how. Mind you, the video froze on me at around the 1 hour mark so I'll have to continue watching it to see what else he says, he really connected the dots that were floating around in my mind very neatly thus-far.

I suspect his opinion on how is going to lie in a unified ummah.

(This may be one post I end up deleting if I feel utterly foolish for voicing my opinions here but I wanted to engage in this debate in hopes that I can learn insha'Allah so please forgive my ignorance and faults).

[LOVEBoy]

...What should we do? The answer is: one mind is not enough... do research work... so that the world of Islam may benefit from that research work... and then we have to come up with strategies: what can we do to be able to faithfully obey our Prophet, Sallalahu teala aleyhi wasallam... Okay... I think I've finally got it. Dare I say: Imran Hossein Sb. may not mince all his words but he certainly does not come out and say in so many words what it is that is needed.

[ENCOSEARRALIA]

Any summary as to what the shaykh is saying?

[nuveem7070]

Any summary as to what the shaykh is saying?

My understanding thus far is that we have dropped the ball on the symbolic meaning of a hadith* and we (the ummah) have erred, fallen for the tactics of dajjal (still hidden but signs are there) which has built a system of dependence so vast that virtually every human being is a slave to it.

As dajjal's forces slowly circle around the area of interest and close-in on Iran (and Pakistan), as the petro-dollar falls while petroleum is now tied to other forms of currency (gold) no longer under the control of the US [gold being closer to a form of exchange that provides a way out of this mess for the ummah - exchange through halal currencies such as dinar and dirhem, if not, then with rice or sugar... rather than the current currencies of the world], and a time of a war of mass destruction draws closer, our window of opportunity - to change our fate and not be one of those who fights in this war where 99/100 will perish - is closing.

We must unite as an ummah [an exclusive one mainly because some have chosen to be left behind or left out] and find a way out of the mess we are currently in. No one person can tackle this on their own.

[There is a lot to think about in terms of 'how' and Imran Hossein Sb. suggests one which I feel is really meant to connect to something bigger but would rather leave that to each individual to decide on their own]

=====

* copied from the video caption:
The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآلہ وسلم) said:
"The time is near when the River Euphrates will uncover a treasure of gold. Whosoever may be alive at that time, should not take anything of it."

Another narration states:
"The Hour will not come to pass before the River Euphrates dries up to unveil a mountain of gold, for which people will fight. Ninety-nine out of one hundred will die (in the fighting) and every man amongst them will say: 'Perhaps I may be the only one to remain alive (and thus possess the gold).'" [Sahih Muslim]

[jagxj12]

I am hearing the Shiekh after a long time, and I am surprised that he is so full of conspiracy theories, tweaking Hadith the way he sees fit (and so full of silent praise of Shias. He seems to have changed his views a lot since I heard him last a few years ago. Though there are some interesting and factually correct things in this lecture, he creates too many doubts about hadiths, and is full of scorn for traditional Ulemas.

[xanaxonlinexanax]

... silent praise of Shias... and is full of scorn for traditional Ulemas.

I heard it a different way. This is how I interpret what he says: while Shia Iran and Hindu India successfully broke through the petro-dollar hold by exchanging petro for gold; gold still is not the currency for the Muslim ummah - we are specifically told not to touch the gold (gold was initially tied to the US currency, and now petroleum is - so it isn't just gold symbolically through currencies like the US dollar but also gold, literally) - if we are to break free from this oppression.

Also, it appears the scorn (he includes himself in it) is meant to drive his opinion home to those who are in positions of responsibility towards the ummah - leaders, bankers and scholars. He makes a public speech, empowering people with knowledge, exposing the workings of a system that we're all implicated and enslaved in, and making each of us as responsible as the scholars etc. in calling for action and change so that rulers, muftis and scholars are forced to take the possibility into consideration and debate but also seek solutions. His scorn is for us all.

[Angry White American]

The pesky thing about conspiracies is that that are there, nearly all the time these are there or these are there too often than we can handle but the conspiracy theorists seldom get them right. So there.
With the expertise and experience of Imran Sahab we expect better products.

[theatadug]

The pesky thing about conspiracies is that that are there, nearly all the time these are there or these are there too often than we can handle but the conspiracy theorists seldom get them right. So there.
With the expertise and experience of Imran Sahab we expect better products.

I agree he sounded very predictable and stated the obvious.

[Enjknsua]

I agree he sounded very predictable and stated the obvious.

Even after a few days of watcing above video I am feeling that for us Imran Sahab has become a lost opportunity. With his kind of abilities and training he would have been a mighty asset for Ummah but he concludes his findings in conspiracy theories.

[ChrisGoldstein]

To me, his opinion is obviously meant for an exclusive group - made more-so because of the abrasiveness of the message (we're all implicated, how can we turn on ourselves? The message makes us feel very uncomfortable in our positions.) and the "conspiracy theory" serves to mobilize that group in 2 waves - first in withdrawal (as much as possible, those who are in the group are just as implicated as the rest of us) and engagement (only after the movement has snowballed to a proportion where it can completely and totally sever any ties with the previous group).

Personally, I have to say that not everything is neatly explained with charts and tables and his message is not quite as straight-forward as it might appear at first glance (at least for some of us). Even non-Muslims are feeling an urge to pull away from the current economic system in various ways so I am of the opinion that this (urge) is beyond theoretical.

[Edit: BTW - I don't know Imran Hossain and this was the first time I ever listened to him so I have no idea about his background or the politics behind the message, aside from what he explicitly states and from what I guess]

[Sapremolz]

Always been fascinated but not entirely convinced about 'end of days' theories and how different scholars approach the prophecies by the Rasul saw on the events before qiyamat , on mahdi , dajjal and the rest ( as sufiyan , about the one who kills as sufiyan ) etc .

While I do agree the some views of taking things entirely word
by word is idiocy , example hadith says dajjal will ride a donkey of so and so length do not mean he will actually ride a donkey .

Dajjal will have a mountain of bread with him do not actually have to mean he will carry bread with him every where .

Where as the river Euphrates exposing her wealth may seem to some as oil and other minerals in the modern era who knows a few centuries from
now other materials may be most valuable to humans.

I have yet to see someone place a more logical sequence of events . For
one event to happen other events need to happen before it , example conquering the Constantinople by Muslims / ( meaning it will not be occupied by muslims or under control of them ) .

Rome is the center of power which will be conquered by muslims.
( meaning the political power as seen today will not exist , America will be gone , europe will make rome its leader )

Occupation and bringing to trial leaders of Al hind meaning the indian sub continet will be against Al mahdi ( Al hind broadly describes the whole region , which indirectly says people here might not stay within the Ummah
by then )

Africa will become a powerful player whose leader will acknowledge
Al mahdi as the leader of the world.

Allinace with muslims and christians for fighting a common enemy before starting to fight amongst themselves.

These things make you think there are still a while to go before the
scenarios take place.

Two opposite contrasts some take thinks too literally and for others excess hypothesis rules out the possibility the Rasul saw was talking about a
world in future still unknown to us.

[BCVB9SOc]

Well, within the context of the title of the thread (focusing on the economy, not necessarily more), what was the point of watching the video of Imran Hossein then? To debate conspiracy theories or to debate the economy? I really don't know enough about the signs and interpretations that are out there so I was focusing on what he had to say about the economy... thinking that was what this thread was about.

But, I will venture a little further out than I probably should and say that only Allah (SWT) knows the time and He has given us the signs to watch for but of course we can only know the signs after they occur and they will occur so there is nothing that can be done about that to change our collective destiny.

What sequence will they occur in? What do they really mean? and How long will each take (it could be that they occur quite rapidly... and some have already).

Aside from the "conspiracy theory" I think pulling away from the grip of the socio-political-economic system is very difficult since we can't move without permission from man, can't drink water without first paying for it (or having others pay for it... as in social services), etc. But, do we need to be as dependent as we've all become? Even non-Muslims are looking for ways out, I see no reason why we shouldn't be ahead of that game since it is built into our deen. That's where I think, once you strip the scorn and 'conspiracy' out (for those who wish to), Imran Hossein's opinion is valid.

[jerzeygymwolf]

Yes I agree and am sorry for side tracking . The clip was about economic issue of the present world .

The speaker tried to relate it to end of days hadith . That is why I felt like other similar lectures I have heard from scholars they do not connect the dots only focus on one saying of the prophet and make it into their
hypothesis.

As far as the economy is concerned no doubt in my mind the modern day
followers of satan / or the dajjal / dajjals of this era are responsible for
the suffering of whole humanity with the economic system we are forced
to live in.

Remember there are supposed to be many dajjals till the time of qiyamah as mentioned by scholars . These small dajjals have influenced the world
events and still doing so I suppose .

I imagine them sitting in newyork or london right now.

Anyway Allah knows best .

[topbonusescod]

Dajjal theology is interesting in itself and brother Zahed's post has got me interested more in that. Having said that I feel that economic issue is more important and that is what I wanted to focus upon. I personally can not count many Muslims who have the qualifications to talk about world economy with Muslim and Islamic perspective. Imran Sahab is one of those who is eminently qualified to speak on these matters and, as I said earlier, he belies expectations - at least that is what I felt. This is very sad because we have so few qualified people to tackle such issues. Benjamin Netanyahu can blurt ,"The Jewish state of Israel can not allow a nuclear Iran". US can incessantly talk about American interests. Why can we not have a few people who can talk about Muslim interests. Economic matters are just one example of that. By the grace of Allah(SWT) Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab(DB) is an expert on Islamic view about financial and economic matters but so far I have not got any indication that he has a grip over the current business, economic and financial environment and the forces and powers and their functioning and Muslim stakes in such matters. Then I know some Jama-at-e-Islami type economists but they too do not illuminate the things much. And these matters are imporatant enough and these deserve our attention.

[IrrettelatWet]

It sounds like a solution may lie in getting these various voices together. Rather than focusing on what is lacking, focus on what they do bring. Besides, the economic landscape is constantly shifting and sliding, almost deliberately out of reach of so many people. How can anyone make complete sense of it all, conclusively?

[XarokLasa]

It sounds like a solution may lie in getting these various voices together. Rather than focusing on what is lacking, focus on what they do bring. Besides, the economic landscape is constantly shifting and sliding, almost deliberately out of reach of so many people. How can anyone make complete sense of it all, conclusively?

The solution is simple if you follow the Quran. Check this.

############
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...atanic-bankers
###########

[Fededorbprago]

Why can we not have a few people who can talk about Muslim interests. Economic matters are just one example of that. By the grace of Allah(SWT) Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab(DB) is an expert on Islamic view about financial and economic matters but so far I have not got any indication that he has a grip over the current business, economic and financial environment and the forces and powers and their functioning and Muslim stakes in such matters.

The current financial system is based on two pillars - speculation and interest (debt). Most of the financial instruments such as derivatives and CDSs are about betting, with same counterparties on many side of the trades. Other intsruments such as SIV - strucutred investment vehicles, are opaque and the prices are determined using some arbitrary formulas such as for ABSs and MBSs. With almost all corporations even those who are sitting on billions of dollars of cash, use debt for financing to that they can leverage and optimize the existing capital, by deducting interest in their corporate income tax etc. Just like why people buy houses on interest today knowing well that they will get deductions in income tax on their interests. So even the technology (or any other sector) company stocks in which you are an investor is indirectly playing with these interest and speculation.

Remember, all above setups are structured in such a way that an individual small investor are the one who loses, because he has no insider information and is playing a blind hand and will not recieve a bail out. Speculation has caused the prices of commodities to skyrocket and made the cost of living (energy + food) very expensive. GOverment subsidy and incentive such as tax breaks on production of ethanol etc, has also contributed to increase in prices of agricultral commodities.

The coporate and individual tax rates are structured in such a way that it provides maximum benefits to those in the financial setup. Individual income tax on capital gains and dividends are normally placed in the lowest tax bracket - remember these folks makes the most money. The whole system is setup such that the rich becomes richer, while middle class are hooked on their month-month living so that they have no time to analyze anything, and poor become more poor and are no longer considered a part of civilized society.

Now the need of the hour is for Islam to present a fair and just economical system as an alternate to this baised casino of so called free market system. But, I do not see any effort being made whatsover by any section of Muslim society, most I see is that Muslims who are very religious go to Islamic banks for mortgage financing and thats about it. Imam Hosien does list all the ills of western "free market system" but he does not provide a solution as to what people can do at the micro level. Yes one could have bought gold and silver, but its not practiccal as you will still have to deal with "fait" paper currency.

I know that there are some halaal investment vehicles (both equity and bonds) in Malaysia and in some parts of the gulf, but I am not sure how they do their investments and what sort of returns they generate.