[Ifroham4]

http://www.hudson-ny.org/1563/negotiating-middle-east

Our media, talking heads, academics, and even our government strategic thinkers have been dealing with the Arab and Muslim world based on the politically-correct paradigm of even-handedness, attributing most international problems to poverty, misunderstandings, rectifying historical grievances, and, in the case of Israel, territorial disputes -- while ignoring or underplaying key elements, such as the importance in Middle Eastern cultures of the values and importance of honor, shame, clan loyalties, theocratic religion, retaining absolute power, and frustrated religious imperialism.

As Harold Rhode, recently of the Pentagon's Office of Net Assessment, wrote for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, it is crucial to understand the mindset of our enemies – something the current US Administration and the leaders of the European Union appear loathe to do.

Dealing specifically with Iran, but implying that the Arab dictators and despots of the Middle East move to the same beat, Rhode concludes that the paradigms that govern US foreign policy in the Middle East today are totally at odds with the paradigms that actually govern the actions of our enemies.

The Western concept of demanding that a leader subscribe to a moral and ethical code does not resonate with Iranians or the Arab world in general. As Rhode notes: "One coming from a position of strength will only make a concession if he is absolutely sure that doing so will consolidate and therefore increase his power. If one believes that his adversary will gain even the slightest advantage through such a measure, he will never concede an inch." The attitude, quite simply, is: "rule-or-be-ruled." As such, compromise, as we understand the concept, "is seen as a sign of submission and weakness" that brings shame and dishonor on those -- and on the families of those -- who concede.

This was made abundantly clear in Hamas's violent reaction to Mahmoud Abbas's direct negotiations with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and in Hamas's insistence that Israel never be recognized as a Jewish state.

Much the same point is made by Richard Landes in Augean Stables: "Arab leaders view any compromise with Israel as a catastrophic loss of face, since such an agreement would mean recognizing as a worthy foe an inferior group that should be subject. Such a blow to Arab honor cannot be tolerated for cultural and political reasons: losing face means to feel utter humiliation, to lose public credibility, and to lose power;" the only way to restore such lost honor is not through compromise, but to shed the blood of this enemy. In this kind of war, negotiations will not work as the solution is in zero-sum terms: I win, you lose. The Palestinians cannot recognize Israel without suffering an unbearable, catastrophic loss of honor; while Israel cannot cede any further territory without absolute security guarantees and its recognition as a Jewish state.

Further, while Iranians, and the Arab world cope with adverse situations by being "warm, gracious, polite, and obsequious," whereas Americans place a high value on "candor, straightforwardness, and honesty," we in the West fail to realize, to our detriment, that we are easily deceived by our enemies' effusively friendly, kind, generous, and engaging behavior --- as were the Europeans by Hitler's magnanimous promises of peace to European leaders immediately preceding World War II. As Hitler later stated to his General Staff: "Our enemies are worms. I saw them at Munich".

Our efforts at compromise, contrition, accommodation and appeasement are perceived as symbolic of our weakness; and our attempts to find common cause with our enemies merely reinforce their belief that we are "paper tigers," to use bin Laden's term, and easy prey. "It is for this reason that good-will and confidence-building measures should be avoided at all costs," he says, as our Western cultural biases make it easy to misunderstand the true intentions of our enemies.

Our adversaries -- Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah -- see "negotiations" and our desire for dialogue as opportunities to "best others, to demonstrate power," and to make certain that we know who is in control. Under such circumstances, goodwill and confidence-building measures by the West are interpreted as a lack of strength or resolve. Israel should not have been surprised when, in return for withdrawing from southern Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005, it received terror in the form of increased suicide bombings and missile attacks on its civilian population. Nor, for that matter, should President Obama have been surprised when his many overtures to our enemies were seen as symptomatic of American weakness, vulnerability, lack of resolve and an opportunity for conquest in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere - which is why American foreign policy in the Middle East is in shambles.

As Rhode writes, such regimes are prepared to "negotiate" only after they have defeated their enemies and established their superiority - at which point they need only dictate terms rather than negotiate them.
Contrary to the view of Western diplomats, "signaling a desire to talk before being victorious is [interpreted as] a sign of weakness or lack of will to win," and, in the view of our enemies, can only lead to an escalation of violence against them and invite demands for further concessions from them.

Understanding this mindset, and adding frustrated religious imperialism (jihadism) into the equation as Landes does, explains why Hamas and Hezbollah are not prepared to negotiate any settlement with Israel, and are adamant in stating their intention to destroy the Jewish state. It also accounts for the reason why Ahmedinejad, despite numerous US attempts at accommodation, feels secure in threatening the Sunni regimes of the region; continues his quest for nuclear weapons despite global censure; openly assists al Qaeda and the Taliban in killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan; funds terrorist organizations throughout the Middle East, and has no qualms in stating his intention to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. It also explains why Hamas continues to fire missiles into Israeli towns and cities and to maintain, in its charter, that its war against the Jews will continue until they are returned to d'himmitude [official second-class status] in the new Arab state of Palestine that will replace Israel; why Hezbollah, in violation of several UN Resolutions, is now stronger and better armed in southern Lebanon than they were prior to the 2006 Second Lebanon War; why Syria continues to establish and strengthen its military ties with Iran despite American protestations; why Hamas and Hezbollah have no hesitation in committing war crimes by using civilians, schools, ambulances and mosques as shields, firing missiles into Israeli cities and towns, and believe absolutely that Israel and the West lack the resolve to stop them; and why Fatah, the power behind the Palestinian Authority, feels free to hold a Congress in Bethlehem that openly proclaims its intention to pursue "resistance" [terrorism] as a strategy until Israel has been vanquished -- while the US and EU continue to pour millions of dollars and Euros into its coffers.
In each case, we have conveyed to our enemies the belief that we are weak, fearful, indecisive, irresolute and do not represent an immediate threat to their power.

[Slonopotam845]

Our diplomats may argue that dialogue is necessary to clarify "misunderstandings" and to "make amends for past injustices" real or imagined, but our enemies see it otherwise: we have created a credibility problem with our friends, and whetted the appetites of those who smell victory based upon our perceived weakness.

As Rhode also notes, in the wake of the Iranian hostage-taking crisis "Iran put the hostages on a plane less than an hour before Ronald Reagan became president. The hostages left Iranian airspace when Reagan raised his hand and took the oath of office. The Iranian "students" believed Reagan was a cowboy and feared he would "level" Tehran…… Interestingly, during the hostage crisis, a group of Iranian terrorists also occupied the Soviet embassy in Tehran. But they quickly left, because Moscow informed Tehran that if the Iranians did not leave the Soviet Embassy within hours, Tehran would be bombed," and they knew the Russians meant it.

Only when the West, including Israel, re-establishes its credibility as the most powerful force in the region, and shows the strength and resolve expected of a superpower, will those who threaten us come on board.
Regrettably, as power, honor and humiliation cannot be separated from Iranian or Arab political cultures, it may become necessary to destroy both the military forces and the political infrastructures of our enemies to such an extent that the mullahs of Iran and the jihadist foot soldiers of Hamas and Hezbollah will be utterly defeated and humiliated.

In the Arab-Persian world, those who seek to challenge us do not intend to be on the losing side.
As power, honor and humiliation are inextricably bound together in Iranian and Arab cultures, it may become necessary to destroy both national symbols, as well as leadership strongholds, of our adversaries. Only when they are convinced that we are serious in protecting our interests in the region, and show the strength of resolve expected of a superpower, will those who threaten us come on board. Neither Hitler nor Tojo would have stood before their nations at the end of World War II and proclaimed that "this was just a temporary setback." In both cases, national recognition of the humiliation and shame that flowed from their defeats allowed moderate elements in both Germany and Japan to assume the mantle of power and provide for a better future for their people –- including both nations subsequently being among the closest allies of the United States.

[LottiFurmann]

What remains unspoken is that there never will be peace with ME nations before the remembrance of Allah and his religion is utterly wiped from the face of this earth. This is not a fanatical point of view but another zero sum game that automically comes with dar al islam/dar al harb-brainwash packages. Less power doesn’t mean less determination in the case of islamic faith. It means less outspoken hostility and more patience at best like the 19th centurie and before. We must learn to see the advantage in everything. In order to destroy faith in Allah we will need what Allah has put into them. We will need their culture of shame and mental self-cutting. The Japanese and (German armies) didn’t start suicide operations when they were convinced of victory. It’s a sign of desperation and so is international terrorism just a sign.

The difference between moderate, fanatic and Al Qaeda fanatic believers is only this; fanatic muslims breed fanatic muslims, Al Qaeda breeds what fits into Al Qaeda and moderate muslims breed all three kinds all over again. Not because it wants it to but because the Quran is designed that way!!!

Now I’m aware this is an end conclusion no one is ready to adopt with happiness. It only points out into one certain direction, the Armageddon type gotterdammerung of which only the American branche of christian zionism has an interest in. Though the way things are going it is very hard to stay optimistic about an easier outcome. What Israel needs is a newborn European christian zionism that superceeds by far men-walked-along-dinosaurs-American zionism. It shoudn’t be that difficult. What the free world needs is a spiritual authority who is determined to dry out all existing christian churches at once and replace it from the inside out with this newborn awareness that will bring about an unconditional allignment of destiny with the jewish people.

[radikal]

Thing is Achihud, its unnecessary to wipe out the whole thing for a few reasons. What is worthwhile is economically de-empowering them. Make oil 10x more expensive then the next abundant energy source and the job is basically done.

[Fegasderty]

Thing is Achihud, its unnecessary to wipe out the whole thing for a few reasons. What is worthwhile is economically de-empowering them. Make oil 10x more expensive then the next abundant energy source and the job is basically done. In theory yes but not without one last attempt to get rid of 'the sting'. They would simply increase their efforts with the utmost exertion. There is no way out of another WW. Only a total economic defeat (when oil sources are gone) along side the forementioned military and cultural defeat will cause implosion of the faith. When the very last opportunity in destroying Israel is evaporated forever.

[softy54534]

My singular point, is that without petrodollars the Iranian Mulahs, the Saudis and everyone between them will dry up. The majority of their countries will resemble sub saharan Africa, with comparable threat profiles.

[NeroASERCH]

I wasn't going to, but I can't resist posting this little interchange with a Palestinian Arab. It wasn't just with me, a number of us pro Israelis (including our Aliyah) took him on. But for the sake of conciseness and brevity, I'll pretend in the summary below that it was just me ...

Are you referring to me Reffo? I don't remember having a conversation like that with you.

[Lt_Apple]

I wasn't going to, but I can't resist posting this little interchange with a Palestinian Arab. It wasn't just with me, a number of us pro Israelis (including our Aliyah) took him on. But for the sake of conciseness and brevity, I'll pretend in the summary below that it was just me ...

Palestinian: Palestine was Arab land stolen by Jews.

Me: Correction, some Jews lived there too. Even longer than Arabs. Even though it's true that other Jews migrated back to the Jewish ancestral home land. But then again some of the Arabs too were recent immigrants who were attracted to Palestine as a result of the economic upturn when the Brits took over from the Ottomans ..

Palestinian:Palestine is Arab land that the Zionists stole. Being Jewish is a religion. There is no such thing as a Jewish people as in nation.

Me:Please don't tell us who we are, don't define us. We define ourselves thank you. For your information, there are millions of secular Jews, some who are atheists but who still describe themselves as Jews. Being Jewish is an ethno/cultural thing.

Palestinian: So if a Jew converts to Christianity or Islam, is he still Jewish?

Me: Yes, he would still be considered to be of Jewish descent.

Palestinian: No, the Russian Jews had no right to take over Palestine because Palestine was Arab land.

Me: But Jews lived there too.

Palestinian:Palestine had Jews, Christians and Muslims but they were all Arabs. So Palestine was Arab land.

Me: Ok then, if the Jews were Arabs, then how come Arabs thought of them as some "other". How come they persecuted Jews in Arab countries and made them refugees? How come the Arabs massacred the Jews of Hebron in 1929?

Palestinian: It was a tribal thing because some Palestinian Jews helped the Zionists.

Me: Of course it was tribal thing. The Palestinian Jews identified with other Jews and the Arabs identified with Arabs. There were two people in Palestine, Arabs AND Jews. Not just Arabs.

It went on from there. I won't write more of it because it would be repetitive. But the above interchange illustrates their logic (did I say "their logic"? - it's an oxymoron ). And it also illustrates why peace has been so elusive. I suspect it will take a very long time before peace will break out because that's what we are up against.

[HedgeYourBets]

I would like to add, from the same "Palestinian" as above on another thread:

http://972mag.com/ir5/#comments

Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians(colonizers) or soldiers is terrorism but Israeli violence against the natives or militants is …? military operation .Dont Palestinians have the right to “do whatever is necessary” to stop the colonizer from settling in their land?

Who are the Israeli civilians ? Settlers ? teenagers serving in the army ? organizations and rich individuals building settlements and judaizing every single spot in Palestine? former IDf members ? Shabak members ? Mistaravim ? current IDf members ? politicians and leaders in suits and skirts giving orders to murder the Aravim ?blogger and writers advertising lies and hasbara ?archaeologists stealing the Palestinian history and manipulating facts ?Companies that cooperate with the army ? or maybe those “peaceful” Jews calling for the expulsion of the 1.3 million natives ? any Israeli who is “NOT” one of the above then he/she is a civilian and killing him/her is an act of terror. and in another thread, our friend "Deir Yassin" (who has the gall to call Reffo ["Bosko"] an extremist):

http://972mag.com/eight-injured-afte...aviv/#comments

@ Ami
I just saw your response to Jalal.

I want to be clear: I’m not defending anything. That is, I do believe the Palestinians have a right to self-defense also by armed struggle, and also within the State of Israel (the metropol of the colonial occupation, though to me all Palestine is occupied), but this case – if it turns out to be an attack with nationalistic motives – is NOT in my opinion defensible.

You in fact wrote my opinion yourself:
“Just because there were NUMEROUS cases when attacks were not terror IN THE END, does not erase the thousands of attacks that were”.
So you’re in fact applying the ‘guilty by probability’.

If asking the questions whether this is really a terror attack “sucks out all your peace vibes” I imagine you didn’t sleep when your army bombed Gaza last week….. So our "moderate" friend is justifying "armed struggle" (i.e. terrorism) even within the "green line" and considers all of Israel to be on "occupied Palestine"....

Even far-left Ami Kaufman seems to have had enough of her:

@Jalal – Come on yourself.
.
So, according to you, this guy is just a criminal, who might have stolen a taxi and then rammed into a police car. Oh, and then he just happened to have a knife with him after he crashed, and started to stab people. Yeah, I do that all the time after I steal cars. I stab people.
.
Your defense, and Deir’s, is pathetic.
.
Just because there were numerous cases where attacks were not terror in the end, does not erase the thousands of attacks that were.
.
What’s amazing is that Palestinians like you and Deir manage to suck out all the “peace vibes” in someone like me, and make me wonder what it’s all for. Seriously.
.
In my writing on +972 I call the occupation what it is. I call the bombing of Gaza what it is. I call the apartheid what it is.
.
Too bad you can’t do the same for terror. It’s “supposedly”. But peace is just around the corner if only us stubborn Israelis would change our ways. Sure, no problem

[Ifroham4]

and in another thread, our friend "Deir Yassin" (who has the gall to call Reffo ["Bosko"] an extremist):

Again, their "logic" is that if a Jew advocates defending Israel, then he/she is an extremist.

[Ifroham4]

You can't shame the shameless and you can't educate the insane. Antisemitism is an eternal hatred. It's free of reason or context or even Jews. The most violent hateful antisemites of them all are people who've never met anyone who's met anyone who's met anyone who's met a Jew. It's a mental illness, like hating space aliens. Ok you go right ahead and hate the sh^t out of those space aliens. Why is it Holocaust deniers revere Hitler? It makes no sense - one or the other of those things, maybe. But not both.

People who irrationally violently despise Israel are beyond sense, beyond reason or discussion, they exist in a world outside of that. It doesn't matter what they say. It doesn't matter what world they live in because it's not the real world. There's no point in having a 'polite' discussion with them. They are people who live every moment of their day in an angry screaming lynch mob in their head, all day every day. And just because they're not vocally screaming doesn't mean there are literally voices in their heads chattering and seething with rage. Lots of people in the world are paranoid psychopaths. Western middle class liberal 'antizionists' are just one variation of a form.

[PhillipHer]

I literally feel contaminated talking to those people. I need a rest from them. But I also hate leaving them the floor. Something's gotta give

[doctorzlo]

The fringe is the fringe. It marginalizes itself eventually. It implodes into its own insanity. Is Obama a terrible president for Israel? Yes he is. But in the main, American policy from administration to administration doesn't change that much. In the end, and as it should be, Israel's fate is in Israel's hands. Let the lunatics rant and rave. Even the lunatics in Israel are lunatics. What are they doing? What are they accomplishing? A big bunch of nothing for the most part.

[Peptobismol]

Medio

Of course you are absolutely right. As you say, ultimately what happens to Israel is up to Israel itself. The self confessed non Zionist activists of Israel and their extremist allies cannot do anything other than shake their little fists, foam at the mouth and howl at the moon for all we care. One thing is for sure, we will never be able to conclude anything with them by talking. There is just too much hatred.

Having said that, I will be leaving that snake pit. I can't even stomach the idea that they exist, let alone keep talking to them.

[Paul Bunyan]

Another favourite tactic of the anti-Zionists ...

1. After a terror attack against Israeli civilians, they issue a one off cursory condemnation.
2. They then ceaselessly focus on Israel's response and never stop talking about state terrorism.
3. They question Israel's right to respond against whatever target because there "is no proof" that the particular terrorist faction was the one responsible for the original attack against Israeli civilians.

The pretence is that the martians or the cabbage patch dolls were responsible for the terrorist acts and the "evil Zionists" just can't help themselves victimising innocent Palestinians ...