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#1 |
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Originally posted by elke
Michael, here is a site that I go to when I get overly depressed. It has much good, solid historical data, as well as some very good essays (don't let the "boring" design fool you ![]() http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/ "In the Israeli-Palestinian struggle both parties have failed to acknowledge one important point; that is, that both parties are victims." Man, does that make me feel so much better I could cry. Does anyone dispute this? |
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#2 |
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IBRODSKY:
"It is a well known fact that the Palestinians demand all Jews leave the territories. In fact, it is accepted among people like you (see above) that the mere presence of Jewish inhabitants in Arab-only regions is a "punch" in the face" Half of all Israelis demand that palestinians leave those territories. I have been in contact with several Israeli Arabs, the much celebrated Arab inhabitants of Israel intended to show Israel is not a racist state, and I was surprised the amount of prejudice they encounter. One thing is for sure, they don't feel welcome there. "the fact that now we have proven we can defend ourselves doesn't make us bullies. It just means that finally we don't have to take what the bullies dish out." You've yet to prove you are defending yourselves and not exacting revenge. "You can't claim to be against terrorism and then claim the terrorists are also "victims." It's time for the Arab bullies to stop trying to "drive the Jews into the sea" as Nasser boasted" You can call the many Palestinians who aren't terrorists victims. Arafat has said he will accept Taba, Saudis offered an Arab recognition of Israel, PLO has twice revoked clause to end Israel's existence... yes hamas etc may seek Israel's destruction, but there is a moderate voice that will happily accept a two state solution. "Meanwhile, Israel has six Arabs sitting in its parliament" I must confess I didn't know that. I only knew of Ahmad Tibi, but I am glad to know there are more. But actualy, 6 doesn't represent accurately the percentage of Palestinians in Israel. "Jerusalem is in Israeli hands all religious sites are open to Christians and Muslims. Ironically, Israel gave Muslims sovereignty over the Temple Mount, and Jews are still not allowed to go there even though it is in Jerusalem. When Ariel Sharon visited Judaism's holiest site in Israel's capital, it was denounced as a "provocation" against Palestinians." I agree, and would like Jeruslame to be either Israeli controlled, or an international city. But I do think Sharon was deliberately making trouble. You complain that they want to wipe Israel off the map, but there is no Palestine on the map. You may have offered, but you have also rejected peace plans. Furthermore, do you know the symbol that is above the Knesset? A friend who visited said it shows Israel with a much greater size than currently. Certainly, we all know Mr Sharon wants to extend Israel. This must be condemned alongside any condemnation of Arab attitudes to Israel, which I personally am appalled at. Israel needs to be given the right to exist in security. "These are false analogies. Actually, no Arab countries recognized Israel's right to exist at the time Israel began to build settlements. Therefore, there was no difference to them between a settlement on the West bank and a suburb of Tel Aviv" I disagree. I think there is a great difference in terms of Palestinian perception. As for nuking Tel Aviv, that's just sick. Although again, I dislike this comparison to Hitler, And finally, I fully agree that both sides are victims, and I think I ight check out that site ![]() |
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#3 |
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In the way that you can collect hundreds of items with fact like attributes mix them together in a blender and claim voila! Agree with everything I say! Truly it's tedious to comment on every sentence you type so that you can say (cheapshot - out of context - bah!) For example what is this?
'I agree, and would like Jeruslame to be either Israeli controlled, or an international city. But I do think Sharon was deliberately making trouble. You complain that they want to wipe Israel off the map, but there is no Palestine on the map. You may have offered, but you have also rejected peace plans. Furthermore, do you know the symbol that is above the Knesset? A friend who visited said it shows Israel with a much greater size than currently. Certainly, we all know Mr Sharon wants to extend Israel. This must be condemned alongside any condemnation of Arab attitudes to Israel, which I personally am appalled at. Israel needs to be given the right to exist in security. ' Something that has the appearance of fact but in fact is largely conjecture, opinion, assumption and concludsions unrelated to other statements. Or this one: 'You've yet to prove you are defending yourselves and not exacting revenge.' which is not only not true but forms the most twisted kind of apolgist logic that doesn't apply in any sphere of policy or law. Or this one which is as far as it goes stright out of the PLO media relations handbook: 'Arafat has said he will accept Taba, Saudis offered an Arab recognition of Israel, PLO has twice revoked clause to end Israel's existence... yes hamas etc may seek Israel's destruction, but there is a moderate voice that will happily accept a two state solution. ' For one thing it's not clear who or what you're talking about or about in what context. Second the tactic of holding Arafat out as an innocent pawn of his own people is not only disingenuous but not even consistant with the facts we know. Third Arafat has said many things in English and turned around and said the opposite to his own people in Arabic or had the opposite broadcast through one of his many proxies. And you do avoid answering questions -you take the tack of shifting to a new set of statements you claim are beyond question. |
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#4 |
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Originally posted by Konnrad
"[i] Please understand that, if you make violent and objectionable actions seem legitimate, you'll only support higher and higher cycles of violence. You may know anti-semitic individuals, but if you are trying to say the media supports such a view you must support news that never mentions the plight of the Palestinians and only demonises them. In this conflict, everyone is hurting. Thomas Taylor Foolish. Try applying that same logic about legitamizing violence towards Palestinians and you'll see that suicide bombings, and other assorted terror acts against Israel are not excusable under any rational. Palestinians commit these criminal acts not out of dispair but out of HOPE. You can qualify your own statements about the media demonizing Palestinians if you'd like.... but it doesn't seem to me that the media are forcing children to strap on bombs, or creating the text books that teach genocide, or force them to march in executioners death hoods right? In actuality the media fails to report many details that would paint an even darker picture of the Palestinian people. Hurt is a relative term. Don't be a pawn. |
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#5 |
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Thank you. I will take your recommendations. Also, the idea that Palestine should be a Jewish free state while I know Israel has Palestinians in it has always struck me as being a morally objectionable position to say the least. But this is the view most seem to accept, perhaps without thinking about it. I am not Jewish, but from America (not that the two are mutually exclusive) and living in UK where I run into so much anti-Israel sentiment I can't believe it. However, I don't really have facts to back up my perception of things, which is why I asked the question. Most Americans just have a gut level support for Israel - it's a democracy, it's free, has strong values, etc., etc. - but this is not the case in the UK, at least from what I have seen.
Anyway, thanks for the referrals. |
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#6 |
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