[Futfwrca]

well put your knowledge is extensive, i think in simple terms we can say that free will and its abuse is a great lesson that we have to learn and must question our own actions and reactions to make sure that we exercise our own with-out abusing the free will of others.

love and peace

david

[MeeveStesia]

this really helps. thank you for your reply and all you have done to be able to provide such a clear answer.

would you say that using one's free will to "get it my way" without considering the needs of others would be a service to self move?

and if so, then what are the karmic ramifications?

and is it a "service to others" move to allow those who exercise their free will to control others or harm others, to continue to do it?

or is "service to others" more like what david does with education and then let others who are being "run over" by sts types then be attracted to david's work?

thanks

[Stetbrate]

so let's take a less charged example than what was in the interview of david.

i understand the incarnation situation. but what if part of our incarnation is to understand free will?

how would you answer if the questions were....

what is free will?

and how do you co-exist with people who use free will to dominate others when it is a violation of your free will?

what if it was someone's free will to harm you?

and it is your free will not to be harmed. but exercising your free will violates there free will.

imagine a game of chess if you will...you are given a certain amount of pieces and each piece can move in a certain law of direction. each piece has its own duty.

your free will is how, when, and where you move those pieces. the goal of the game is the same no matter who plays it at what time, but the way to get there are countless.

thats just life in a nutshell i think. (plus i like chess, ha ha ha...)

[egexgfczc]

beautifully put mwr1026! thank you for the "nutshell".

another thought came to me as i read dctalk's question:
i have read about spirits who prior to reincarnating, chose to set up (for lack of a better term) a situation in their upcoming lives to break a pattern of abuse in family situations. in this particular case, the spirit who was to be the father agreed (reluctantly) to be the abuser and the spirit who was to be the daughter agreed to be the victum - with the express desire to be able to bring this abuse out into the open and stop the pattern. (pm me if you would like references)

when i read this, it struck several chords with me.
1. the amazing willingness of spirits to choose difficult life experiences to bring about growth, change and awareness.
2. the risk involved in those choices. knowing that once we pass through the veil and begin our incarnation, we easily, through free will, could make choices that might further the abuse, instead of curbing it.
3. the knowledge that we could easily create karmic situations that will require further forgiveness, understanding, incarnations...and again, the willingness to do this in order to serve others as well as ourselves.

free will / agency / choice is truly a complex idea to comprehend while here in 3d. the more understanding we have about it, the more difficult it sometimes is to understand!!

i try to visualize that my free will stops where anothers' begins...but that line is often fluid and can cause me to dance around abit.

don't know if this is any help, but i hope so.

i just want to add that i truly feel so happy to have found divine cosmos, and all of you. i feel as if i have come home and am surrounded by those of like mind!:d

love & light

alloura

[Janarealiti]

free will / agency / choice is truly a complex idea to comprehend while here in 3d. the more understanding we have about it, the more difficult it sometimes is to understand!!

i try to visualize that my free will stops where anothers' begins...but that line is often fluid and can cause me to dance around abit.

another great thread. smilar, i might add to the one entitled: "distortion of free will and the issues of mental illness" on the law of one forum. below is, i think, an insightful quote from ra regarding this topic (emphases added):

law of one book i, session 18
questioner: basically i would say that to infringe upon the free will of another entity would be the basic thing never to do under the law of one. can you state any other breaking of the law of one than this basic rule?

ra: i am ra. as one proceeds from the primal distortion of free will, one proceeds to the understanding of the focal points of intelligent energy which have created the intelligences or the ways of a particular mind/body/spirit complex in its environment, both what you would call natural and what you would call man-made. thus, the distortions to be avoided are those which do not take into consideration the distortions of the focus of energy of love/light, or shall we say, the logos of this particular sphere or density. these include the lack of understanding of the needs of the natural environment, the needs of other-selves’ mind/body/spirit complexes. these are many due to the various distortions of man-made complexes in which the intelligence and awareness of entities themselves have chosen a way of using the energies available.

thus, what would be an improper distortion with one entity is proper with another. we can suggest an attempt to become aware of the other-self as self and thus do that action which is needed by other-self, understanding from the other-self’s intelligence and awareness. in many cases this does not involve the breaking of the distortion of free will into a distortion or fragmentation called infringement. however, it is a delicate matter to be of service, and compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

the area or arena called the societal complex is an arena in which there are no particular needs for care for it is the prerogative/honor/duty of those in the particular planetary sphere to act according to their free will for the attempted aid of the social complex.

thus, you have two simple directives: awareness of the intelligent energy expressed in nature, awareness of the intelligent energy expressed in self to be shared when it seems appropriate by the entity with the social complex, and you have one infinitely subtle and various set of distortions of which you may be aware; that is, distortions with respect to self and other-selves not concerning free will but concerning harmonious relationships and service to others as other-selves would most benefit. 3d sunset

[BitStillrhile]

alloura,
you make some very interesting observations in your post here. it does seem that the unincarnated self, in cooperation with its higher self and others, is willing to engage circumstances for incarnation that appear to be harmful or destructive or traumatic.

but i suspect that our perceptions of these things are extremely limited by our incarnated 3d perspective. it's very hard (for me at least) to get past our novice consciousness (the defining characteristic of 3d conscious is that it is new and emerging from unconsciousness) to grasp that not all is as it appears.

from an unincarnated perspective, the things that seem so horrific to us here might not be such a tragedy. seeing the big picture just might change everything.

[MeeveStesia]

in david's interview on red ice, david spoke about free will of both positive and negative intentions. david talked about the importance of honoring others free will.

the interviewer asked david how free will works for those who are negative beings. if a child molester wants to molest, then how do we honor free will of the negative when it violates our free will?

how does free will really work? especially since both positive and negative beings have it. can anyone point me to areas of david's work that really clearly define and teach free will and how to deal with negative beings' free will?

thanks

[Futfwrca]

before going and looking somewhere else try meditating on your own questions, you may well surprize your self with the answers you get, and also open up a lot more questions you didn't know you wanted answering, by getting you to react one way or another does the child molester affect your free will, where you live or places you frequent, some social problems are caused by a history of the same problem, patterns repeating themselves, if we really create our own reality do we ask for our own molestation to happen, a difficult pill to swallow but a view i tend to agree with.

love and peace

david

[Michael-jeckson2]

one way i can think of to reconcile this problem is removing the labels of "positive" and "negative." i don't believe anything is innately positive or negative. that's definitely open to debate.

even if we do allow positive and negative labels, how do we know something is truly negative. surely, at first the war that broke out between russia and georgia seemed a negative thing that would lead us to wwiii. but now that we are almost 2 months removed from the conflict, it looks as though it could be a "positive war." and what will people think 200 years from now? when will we have a wide enough scope to judge accurately?

let's explore your child molester example. let me start by stating the obvious, i do not support or advocate molestation of children. is molestation good or bad? or good and bad? it could be good because the child molester is caught and put in jail where he/she is rehabilitated, but also bad because someone was violated.

but even the idea of someone's free will being violated doesn't sit right with me. do we not agree to go through experiences with each other before we incarnate? so many questions...waiting to remember the answers.

dave

[lapyignipinge]

before going and looking somewhere else try meditating on your own questions, you may well surprize your self with the answers you get, and also open up a lot more questions you didn't know you wanted answering, by getting you to react one way or another does the child molester affect your free will, where you live or places you frequent, some social problems are caused by a history of the same problem, patterns repeating themselves, if we really create our own reality do we ask for our own molestation to happen, a difficult pill to swallow but a view i tend to agree with.

love and peace

david

and this is the hardest thing to understand. but its why you have to trust god's law. i think its perfect.

[MeeveStesia]

so let's take a less charged example than what was in the interview of david.

i understand the incarnation situation. but what if part of our incarnation is to understand free will?

how would you answer if the questions were....

what is free will?

and how do you co-exist with people who use free will to dominate others when it is a violation of your free will?

what if it was someone's free will to harm you?

and it is your free will not to be harmed. but exercising your free will violates there free will.

[BitStillrhile]

clearly, 3d humans violate each other's free will often. it is the source of most of the grief on this planet. so it is not a question of whether or not it is possible to violate the free will of another, but rather it is an issue of karma...and experience.

according to ra, 3d is very special because it is the point in our evolution where we pack in the most compressed opportunities for experience. our big task in 3d is to discover ourselves, our uniqueness, our consciousness, our connectedness to all...and to have lots and lots and lots of experiences that flesh out those discoveries. in order to make these discoveries, we must enter into each 3d incarnation with a blank slate. most of the true nature of existence is hidden from us even as we discover it. we make discoveries in bits and pieces and don't easily make all the connections cleanly. as the apostle paul said, "now we see through a glass darkly, but then we shall see face to face."

there is a very informative discussion in loo of how this need for amnesia and the resulting distortion of free will came into the picture in the first place. initially, the various logos did not introduce free will into their creations because being so connected, so close to oneness in their perception of all, there was no reason for them to even think of independence. oneness was so obvious, and so transparently visible, that the beings they created hardly ever had any meaningful or productive experiences of the separateness for which they had been created. they tended to go through long uneventful lifetimes with very little depth of individualized experience. why grow and seek experiences if you have all the answers right in front of you? how can you experience pain or sorrow or loneliness or grief or the pride of accomplishment or the joy of motherhood, or the thrill of victory, or the agony of defeat if you are thoroughly aware of the illusory nature of all of these things in service to oneness? (we tend to think of much of this experiential stuff as obstacles to spirituality, to be overcome, but experiencing them is why we are here. this could be a whole thread of its own.)

so the logos introduced amnesia about oneness into their creations. with this change, it became necessary for beings to find their own way through existence, which put a huge motivation on going out and experiencing everything intensely to try to sort out who you are, why you are here, what's important, and how to survive. inherent in all of this is the necessity to choose one's path...and that is free will. being able to choose one's path, combined with the blindness of spiritual amnesia, profoundly expanded the opportunities for experience. but inherent in free will is the potential for making destructive choices, and thus all that we consider the negative path entered the picture, along with karma.

the case of ets meddling in our affairs is a bit different. inherently there is no reason that ets could not meddle. the quarantine against contact with us from ets is an administrative action partly to ensure that they don't spill the beans. this prohibition is for a time and a purpose, but again, it is not inherently prohibited for a being to interfere with another being's free will. it is bad to do so, and you will suffer karmic consequences if you do, but the law of one cannot prevent you from exercising your freedom to violate another's freedom. et's are not allowed to do it generally because it would totally destroy the potential for our entire 3d planet to progress through the tasks that have been set before us. but in fact, it appears that life on a 4d sts planet is pretty much all about the heirarchy of stronger beings impinging on the free will of weaker beings for their own perceived benefit. i have worked in places like that before, and it sucks...but it is allowed, if you choose to participate in it.

i said this would be in a nutshell. it's starting to look like a coconut shell. i better stop here, while it still fits in the coconut.