[Pelefaifs]

rocky,

great post! nice summation of forgiveness and what it means to the "true" christian.

it reminds me of a quote i read somewhere.

"the love you withhold is the pain that you carry"

peace,
(:-deeze

[glasscollector]

scientific evidence supports this as well but i am unable to supply a sound link that supports my statement as the people wearing tin foil hats have buried it within propaganda.
:d

[AndyColemants]

the problem with a concept like forgiveness is that our perception and thinking is distorted, so that it is possible to analyze the term till the cows come home and it won't make a bit of difference. becoming enlightened automatically will bring that state. i'm speaking from experience, from the few times i've been in that unified state, where everything and everyone is one. so i know how it feels, it's just a matter of working towards it in the face of the all the opposition and polarity of 3d.

the idea is simple, the practice difficult. trying to reach enlightenment through discussion and analysis doesn't work either. you just keep on going, doing the best you can, taking everything learned and applying it, and bit by bit the negativity falls away, and the unified experience happens more often.

that's what i've learned for myself, but always willing to learn about shortcuts, if they exist. for me agonizing over these issues is a distraction from the "work" that four letter word. i desperately want to experience forgiveness for myself and all those others i still have an emotional charge for, but know it's going to come when i realize there is nothing to forgive.

[praboobolbode]

i'm not quite sure i completely grasp what you're saying...but then again the only person that really hurt is the one that wants to project their pain on you. lol

you could say that things like fear and pain only exist in ego-centered perceptions and we can't deny that it exists....but it doesn't have to effect us if we see things through love. you can still atleast forgive the very intent or idea of pain, no? i've always thought forgiveness was a characteristic of unconditional love (or "grace"). maybe it's only a way of us looking at it i guess...perhaps something way to divine to put in actual human words.

[praboobolbode]

well yeah, forgiveness is easier explained than practiced. perhaps the christians make the short cut by believing in how much their god is unconditionally willing to always love and forgive them and when they accept this forgiveness, they will be able to forgive others.....yet as i said, christians don't see themsevles as inherent "saints" unless they let chrit's forgiveness live in them. they, like everyone else, struggle to believe in forgiveness.

remember though, forgiveness doesn't mean that you're okay with something wrong, it just means you choose not to focus on it. it's the choice to never bring certain things to memory, nor let any of the negative emotions that come with it to control your life. in some sense it's not like it doesn't exists and it can't really effect you. sure it can effect you, but it doesn't have to if you choose not to focus on it. in a sense, you make it exist with your mind, then you self-destruct. everything in reality has a cause and effect, so you can't pretend that negativitity can't effect you, but you have the choice not to keep negativity in your mind.

god's love is always at the door of our hearts ready to give us the power to love. remember that you wouldn't exist if god didn't love because love is all there really is, no? our lives are sustained unconditionally, even when we take it for granted. we have the power to really live or self-destruct, if even possible, sink down to the first density o.o lol i dunno, just a random thought...

[AndyColemants]

i never looked at it like that, i like that, about not focusing on the thought. i guess i'm used to thinking it has to be gotten rid of, which seems impossible, because the thought will always be there, on some level. thanks for bringing that up, something to think about (more thinking, ha!).

[BruceQW]

hi rockyrojas88

that post really "rocked"...by the way, what does 88 symbolize in your name? year of birth? if so you are a very mature 20 year old person....no probably not, will go check your profile..

liliane the transit (time:10.11)

[glasscollector]

this woman suggests that scientific research has been carried that shows a mind heart connection .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsj3b...eature=related


you have a 40,000 neuron brain in your heart that connects directly to your free will in your brain.
james: this is a scientific fact?
caroline: this is a scientific fact. it is quite new research and it actually controls it, links directly to the part of your brain which is more or less over here --
james: you mean the physical heart, not just the emotional heart we call the heart -- the physical heart?
caroline: the actual physical heart has a 40,000 neuron, very sophisticated checking machine, which checks for congruence for interaction and it actually is a still small voice that goes up and helps with your decision making. you receive information, it comes in your brain and you start to formulate a thought. now as that information comes in, you make a decision of your will, is this good for me? is this bad for me? do i need this? am i going to accept this? am i going to reject this? and you rely on the heart to guide that decision. so the heart has a huge cognitive -- it secretes a chemical called anf, that actually has a cognitive impact. in other words, it controls the thinking process, and that is like a checking station to help us to actually make a good decision. hopefully this is more acceptable for the forum , its just that if this scientific research is for real the implications are obviously mind blowing in regards to human evolution .
what she basically implies is that forgiveness basically debugs you mind holding onto negative thoughts short circuits it causing one to be caught in a misery loop and stops a person from learning .

it kind of makes a lot of sense you can not love with out forgiveness well you can until some one steps on your toes then you get a choice to hold onto the negative experience or forgive let it go and continue to love.

i am kind of interested how they conducted the research hopefully one of my fellow wanders will guide me in the right direction.

[glasscollector]

this is just a coincidence as i am currently reading a wanders hand book i find the timing
of myself reading this kind of interesting.

as we go through the processes of
taking in the learning and attempting the serving, we suffer, make errors, at
least in our own eyes, and become aware that we need to heal that suffering
insofar as we can. when we look back and see all the suffering, """""we tend not
to want to forgive""""" the suffering or the whole process, even though we
preincarnatively set all this out for ourselves, just as we choose our courses
of study at the beginning of a semester of school. if we can come to trust in
the excellence of the basic plan, we become more able to allow ourselves this
forgiveness of suffering, this healing: strangely i tried to start a thread on a similar topic the same day this one popped up it was rejected by the mods because the link i supplied was attached to less than desirable website, i had not looked through the whole website only the material of interest to me so
it was a good call in regards to the mods not allowing it.

its all about timing every thing happens for a reason

[praboobolbode]

lol interesting "coincidence"

[avaincmolla]

i always thought that forgiveness was simply the by-product of a more elevated view of the situation at hand.

like, if somebody attacks me, then the only reason i withhold forgiveness from that person is because i feel that they have taken something from me. i cannot forgive because i still hurt. but (individual, personal) pain is only possible in a separated state. when the veil is lifted, or thinned, the pain washes away. if the pain no longer exists, then the crime no longer exists either, and the grudge, having nothing behind it anymore, disappears naturally.

so my goal isn't so much to forgive others as it is to attain the state where non-forgiveness is recognized for the folly that it is, and words like "forgiveness" make no sense, as non-forgiveness becomes, from that elevated viewpoint, an impossibility. and negating an impossibility is mere wordplay.

i look forward to the day when words like "forgiveness" are no more than a distant memory.

[BruceQW]

!!!!

i just had a big lesson after starting a new complaining thread...i don't know what to make out of it exactly but it has something to do with forgiveness i think but also balancing of opposites and not focusing on the negative, allowing oneself to step out of it without accusing the circumstances for having thrown you out, since you actually choose it yourself...this connects to a new thread i just started and don't know if it's accepted yet, but a small miracle presented itself seconds after, if not the big directcontact a positive one with pple i have problems with...making me feel thankful for the resistance from a person i told about it, (even if she didn't do it out of awareness) propelling me not to focus on the negative but without denying it etc etc....i'm scared they will hate me if i prefer to be alone or seek out new contacts....fear, fear, fear...

the lilies on the ground and the birds in the sky don't fear, don't prey and anyway.......

.......tough school....hard lessons.....beatiful rewards

how many times should we forgive according to jesus? innumerable of times......posting 10.22

[BruceQW]

hihihihih-hi

well well...the birds "prey" alrighton mosquitos, flies and other birds....

...i mean pray of course...was that a "freudian slip"...will think about it while working in my allotment.

sunny greetings from transiten in gothenburg

[glasscollector]

another interesting link

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/..._brain/id/1961

the only thing standing in the way of us all being enlightenment is our brains or the way we have we have held onto our childhood programming and experiences.

meditation is the emptying of ones mind so the heart can communicate or allow the light/love of the one creator to flow through us into the world around us .

[AndyColemants]

i wish i had your ability to express, johnasmodeus, i was trying to say exactly what you said. the concept of forgiveness is just that, a concept, something that doesn't really exist except in perception. be in the right state of mind and forgiveness as such is not necessary.

and actual scientific proof of a heart/mind connection, what will they come up with next! that is just so fascinating....

[praboobolbode]

i've been reading and listening to some lectures concerning spirituality and much of it meantions the golden rules we all hear of like "turn the other cheek", "love your enemies", and forgive. it's said that unforgiveness is the root of our problems with self. the idea is that other people hurt us because they also have suppressed unforgiveness. others project fear on us as expect us to project it too. the solution is said to love and forgive.

the teachings of the "christ" of christianity taught forgiveness and that to reject forgiveness to others is to also reject god's forgiveness you. in other words, the unpardonable sin isn't merely a wrong we do against life, but the suppressed unforgiveness behind it. "god" always forgives, but we have the power to accept it or reject it (rejecting only hurts us). when we see pain and suffering in the world, its not some diety lashing out on us, but the unforgiveness (lack in belief in forgiveness) of others projected on others.

of course, forgiveness can't be some religion imposed on others because then it would be a some kind of paradox. true forgiveness won't demand that others forgive. when somone rejects your forgiveness (in disbelief) it's only a sad fairwell (they are the ones who quit, it's not like saying "you're fired!)". i probably will ask myself "do i really believe in forgiveness?". perhaps this is the reason certain dieties like the christian god exists, to sort of metaphorically power-up some forgiveness into them from "god", which they don't naturally have. to do this they would have to believe that this diety unconditionally loves and forgives them (when they don't always deserve it and we're not perfect).

so real christians shouldn't really point fingers to eachother (or non-christians) because if they believe in "god's" forgiveness through christ's sacrifice (of forgiveness), then unforgiveness can't exist. real christians will point to their "christ" of forgiveness, not to "the devil's" accusations. of course today "christianity" is just a vain taking of the name of their lord (breaking the 3rd commandment), but if i we're a christian i wouldn't rub that fact in too much though. it's good to be aware of the wrongs done by others so that we know what we are going to forgive. we are to forgive those who selfishly abuse their power. pointing out sins are judgement made in our conscience, it's not some other sinners job to do. absolute forgiveness will lead to abandoning wrongdoings, doing right, and it keeps the conscience clean. true believing christians recognize they are sinners and can only become a saint through their christ. no one is an inherent "saint". "christ" is the "salvation" of those who believe in forgiveness.

forgive and be happy? lol

i guess the best response to "christians" who bash others is that they truely don't believe in "christ" because they hold grudges of unforgiveness. atheists may easily get caught up with this bashing of unforgiveness, but this could all end with goodness, love, and forgiveness. atheists don't see the existance of a personal god (gods seem to be just personified metaphors of the universe), but that doesn't mean they automatically abandon "goodness, love and forgiveness". theists may have it personified, atheists don't. its as simple as a different point of view. polytheists have various personified metaphors, pantheists believe they are to be one with the metaphors, and agnostics don't know whether or not these things are to be metaphors or personalized. perhaps pantheists and panentheists are really on to something by personalizing these metaphors, but theists often keep it as an outside force and forget that goodness should be in them, and not some outside theory or law of nature that doesn't effect them. note: this is a copy and paste from something i posted on a forum for atheists

hmm...all beliefs in a nut shell.