[cepAceryTem]

dear rocky, deeze,everyone,

in my opinion, the biggest issue under consideration concerns ideas about "the second coming" and what exactly this means. smith shared this just before the part i had quoted you rocky in post(found where-i'd saved it but not identified where, see chapter so titled in his burning bush). nina

http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com
"if, as we know, along with all christendom paul viewed the resurrection of christ as central to our faith (1 cor 15,12-19), no less so was the certainty of his return, the parousia, or “second coming” (1 cor 16,22; 1 th 2,19; 3,13; 4,15 and 5,23; 2 th 2,1,8; heb 9,28 and 10,37). but the conviction that his resurrection was “in the body” and the expectation that his return would be likewise have, with the loss of the first century’s inspired vision and the increasing focus upon the modern “scientific” mind, caused the truth to be lost by division (a “house divided,” mt 12,25-26) into opposing camps of internecine misunderstanding. on the one hand are the fundamentalists who maddeningly insist on the reconstitution, atom by atom, of the mineral-physical body not only of christ but also of his followers “on the last day.” on the other hand are the rest who, hopelessly diffused, nevertheless hold tenaciously, likewise as a matter of “faith,” to some type of resurrection and second coming, but cannot swallow the incredible inconsistencies assumed by the “atomic” scenario. in between, erstwhile believers slip away from firm conviction while their younger sensitive counterparts ignore christianity as increasingly irrelevant, understandably disenchanted by both camps.

one senses that just as humanity had to sink to the “right time” before the advent of christ, christianity had to come to this threshold of immolation before comprehension of the reconciling truth of the mystery of golgotha could ripen faith into a faith based upon the greater certainty of knowledge.

anthroposophy shows us that christ incarnated “once for all” and that those who expect its repeat do not understand the cosmic significance of the incarnation in the first instance. yet, while the “atomic” scenario is indeed an ahrimanic (delusively materialistic; see 2 th 2,11) falsehood, it is nevertheless true that the resurrection of christ was in the “body,” so also will be his second coming. paul made a clear distinction, of course, between “the body” and “the flesh,” and it is this distinction that is ignored by the expectation of “atomic” reconstitution. the resurrection of christ was of all of his three bodies, the physical, etheric and astral, while the higher components of his being (see i-9) experienced death without themselves ever having died (jn 11,26). "

and further ahead on p5:
"let us look now at what steiner said about the matter. while in all of the works cited above, steiner speaks of the coming perceptions of christ in the etheric world as the second coming, the most complete assembly of lectures thereon is in the reappearance of christ in the etheric (rce). in the first lecture he speaks of paul’s damascus road experience as a vision (as of one “untimely born,” 1 cor 15,8) of the etheric christ, a first fruit, in a manner of speaking, of what is now more and more to be experienced by humans who develop the necessary organ of perception. the nature of paul’s knowledge was based upon his own experience rather than what he learned from others (gal 1,11-12). he was thus, along with others who had seen the risen christ, an etheric “eyewitness,” the only type relied upon by luke (lk 1,2). and just as paul did not rely upon any written or spoken word, neither will those who now come to experience christ in the etheric world, by raising themselves up to an etheric vision of him (jer 31,33; 2 cor 3; heb 10,15-16). souls who fail in this incarnation to prepare themselves will have to wait until they are again incarnated and will thus lose the increased consciousness during their long term in the spiritual world. the face of the earth will have changed in the interim."

[avaincmolla]

@rocky:

i can understand your confusion, but what you wrote indicates that you don't quite grasp the concept of unity yet. you are aware of the idea, but you are trying to approach it from a binary mindset.

for example:

"oh riiiiight, so i create my own agenda...and serve myself a graduation...so i don't need god's hand to take me out of the grave but i'll crawl out myself..."

if you are god, and god is you, then your hand is god's hand. so you will crawl out of "the grave," as you say, but you will indeed require god's hand to do it since god's hand is at the end of your arm. thus any paradox that exists does so only because you aren't looking at the issue from a detached enough viewpoint.

your sarcasm is a self-defense measure, as is your need to classify the ideas here as "pantheist." you're still locked in your old system, and that system hasn't equipped you with what you need to understand this one.

you can't touch both edges of the pool at the same time. you have to let go of the side you're on and trust that the waters will support your weight before you reach the other side. the faith that god exists independent of religion is yet faith, is it not?

[casinobonusese]

my religion is faith. a faith is a religion.

your pantheistic beliefs are of sincere faith and to go against what you stand for would have you feel guilt (which some pantheists deny even exists). the very principle of "sin" is that you do something that goes against your beliefs or conscience (which is based on the reason of your knowledge).

my intention is only to speak the truth as i see it clearly written in the library of books called the bible (i like to look at the original greek and hebrew, see the full context, and compare text with other texts to find parallels). i may even refer to books not in the cannon, but found in jewish literature. i might also like to read ellen g white too. historical writings are useful. old legends from other cultures sometimes parallel bible stories, but i wouldn't take them literally.

something random
the book of enoch and the books of adam and eve for example call the children of seth "watchmen", "guards" or "watchers", but people like to take that out of context so they can blame the devil for the flood and not let humans take responsibility for their actions. also remember that people lived for centuries with a better atmosphere (thus giant forms of life, including giant humans). what really happened before the flood was that people chose to have a violent spirit within them (not genetics, but spirit can effect genetics). crossing the races of seth and cain would be probably create great giants though (just like when you cross breeds of dogs which are of the same species). perhaps they made a one world government in the end or perhaps they pretended to have peace, i don't know, but the point is they rebelled against real love, the principle of life. i personally don't think god can destroys, but that he gives us all the power we want and when we use it for selfish purposes, it backfires. you could say the flood was caused by their ego-minds and cooperation with entities that fell a long time ago, way before humans were created.

i believe human souls originate from the 1st density of dust and were brought to life by the highest density of spirit. the spirit formed the first human soul from earth, vitalizing it and sustaining it. the spirit carries our character (thoughts and feelings) and memory. this can be accessed by other people, entities, or be carried down to our children through the spirit, but that doesn't imply reincarnation or past life regression (it's simply channeling the memories of others). entities can implant memories of other lives of the spirit, but it's to teach us lessons about life, not to teach we are some eternal spirits. lol when we die, the dust goes to dust and our spirit may linger (carried by other entities), but it they aren't souls.

there are "pagan" ideas that infiltrated the early christian church like sunday worship, christmas, veneration of saints, eternal soul torment, etc i mention that a post about the mark of the beast. i think this is what blinds people from seeing the truth.

[casinobonusese]

well i don't actually think people will be resurrected into this mortal physical body though. i believe it will be the immortal body of christ. it will be the same body that adam and eve had before losing immortality. you could say a body in an immortal dimension.

[cepAceryTem]

dear rocky and everyone,
some of the statements given by ra cause me concern. i'm sorry that david has not chosen to use anthroposophical elucidication, aside from praising steiner's "knowledge of higher worlds". for me, anthroposophy offers much explanation and is a comfort zone where everything fits and is beautifully explained. (this list is mainly to offer study and support of this body of material as well as david's wk).
two years have passed since i first came across "the reincarnation of " and "ra books" and also joined steiner lists. i'd been a student of cayce scholar harmon bro, and was very excited at the potential return of cayce. i'm more of a traditional christian and find those interpretations greatly expanded and supported by anthroposophy. ra adds elements that are disturbing to me. i'm thankful to have been able to share links to smith's wks and matherne reviews. my earlier post 10 in gd "north
american ley lines", shared one of my recommendations. nina

from "david's question", see "light, introduction"
http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com
"those who were blessed to witness, on the mountain, the ascension of christ heard "two men" in "white robes" say that jesus would "come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven" (acts 1,10-11). these are the same "two men" who appeared "in dazzling apparel" to the women at the tomb (lk 24,4; jn 20,12). in the burning bush we saw that these "two men" were the etheric and astral bodies of jesus (pp. 414, 447 and 449). through these bodies, remaining in the etheric and astral domains of the earth, these followers were enabled to "see" and "hear" a spiritual event of great moment.1 a window into spiritual reality was briefly opened to them, as witnesses, for the day when this could be more fully understood. that day, only now beginning to dawn, can evolve into full understanding only when "cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the land is utterly desolate" (is 6,9-12).2 the earth is already dying as the prodigal son begins the long return journey home. the gospel accounts of the resurrection appearances, the forty days, and the ascension can be reconciled and understood only in the light of koenig's divine perception set out in the burning bush (p. 506). we saw there in the "second coming" and "lord of karma" essays how the christ, who had "gone to the father" (jn 14,28; 16,10,28 and 20,17) in those early days, was returning to reveal himself again through those "bodies," that is, "in the same way as you saw him go into heaven" (acts 1,11). the "fish" that were partaken after the resurrection were of the same character as those in the divine "feedings," symbols (signs; see jn 6,14) of the age of the fish (i.e., two fish, jn 6,9, the sign of pisces), our present cultural era that began with the renaissance, when the human spiritual soul would begin to "see" the christ returned in the etheric world.3"

[mpzoFeJs]

you might find this of interests...

http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_se...31_thru_40.htm

lection 37

the re-generation of the soul.

1. iesus sat in the porch of the temple, and some came to learn his doctrine, and one said unto him, master, what teachest thou concerning life?
2. and he said unto them, blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they shall be made perfect through suffering: they shall be as the angels of god in heaven and shall die no more, neither shall they be born any more, for death and birth have no more dominion over them.
3. they who have suffered and overcome shall be made pillars in the temple of my god, and they shall go out no more. verily i say unto you, except ye be born again of water and of fire, ye cannot see the kingdom of god.
4. and a certain rabbi (nicodemus) came unto him by night for fear of the jews, and said unto him. how can a man be born again when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again ?
5. iesus answered, verily i say unto you except a man be born again of flesh and of spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of god. the wind bloweth where it listeth, and ye hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth.
6. the light shineth from the east even unto the west; out of the darkness, the sun ariseth and goeth down into darkness again; so is it with man, from the ages unto the ages.
7. when it cometh from the darkness, it is that he hath lived before, and when it goeth down again into darkness, it is that he may rest for a little, and thereafter again exist.
8. so through many changes must ye be made perfect, as it is written in the book of job, i am a wanderer, changing place after place and house after house, until i come unto the city and mansion which is eternal.
9. and nicodemus said unto him, how can these things be? and iesus answered and said unto him, art thou a teacher in israel, and understandeth not these things? verily we speak that which we do know, and bear witness to that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness.
10. if i have told you of earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if i tell you of heavenly things? no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the son-daughter of man which is in heaven.

peace to all,
lynette

[casinobonusese]

acts 2:29-34
29 men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch david, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that god had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the christ to sit on his throne,
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the christ, that his soul was not left in the grave, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 this jesus, god has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 therefore being exalted to the right hand of god, and having received from the father the promise of the holy spirit, he poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 for david did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: the lord said to my lord, sit at my right hand.....

1 corinthians 15:14-15
if christ be not raised, your faith is vain...then they also which are fallen asleep in christ are perished.

1 corinthians 15:51-53
51 behold, i shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


so...when jesus resurrected...it was into the 4th density or something like that? lol what about those that "sleep"? they're in lower densities? i asked in a previous post (which was left unanswered) if it were possible to "fall asleep" seemingly unconscious in the 1st density (the dust). is that possible? perhaps it happens because of personal beliefs? o.o

hmm....lolz funny thoughts

[Pelefaifs]

1 corinthians 15:51-53
51 behold, i shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

i have felt for some time that the above verses are speaking of the ascension.

the statement in vs. 52 "and we shall be changed" clearly indicates this.

peace,
(:-deeze

[AromeWahmaron]

the classic verse is of course...

"for i am that which was, is, and will ever be..."

be well, be love.

david

[casinobonusese]

cool...i never thought i'd grasp this concept until now that i think more of it....lol

[cepAceryTem]

dear rocky,

i found this from smith's www.bibleandanthroposophy.com
please don't ask me where! much given in his burning bush ch on trumpets. much also can be found if you search on the site. he has over 1000 pages total and for me, they are profoundly important works.
according to steiner, there were actually two jesus children born unto the house of david - one from his son solomon, the other from his son nathan.(smith has entire book on it - see the incredible births of jesus). i'm sorry, i put aside trying to understand particulars of ra material since found so much foundational merit in these studies. nina
the names jupiter, venus, and vulcan, given below, reflect future evolutionary state of our earth evolution.

"a critical distinction must here be made, however, between the resurrection of christ and that of humanity. the perfection of christ was absolute and thus during earth evolution his resurrection was of both the physical and etheric bodies (ignoring as here irrelevant the less dense astral body). the resurrection of humanity, of which luke speaks for instance in lk 20,35-36, is what it will experience when the mineral-physical body is permanently laid aside (with the end of reincarnation), and when at the “last trumpet” (1 cor 15; see “trumpet[s]”) the etheric body is also laid aside, both as a result of earth evolution leading to the jupiter condition of consciousness (see i-1 through i-3), the “new jerusalem” of rev 21. earth evolution is the “age” spoken of by christ (e.g., mt 28,20; mt 24,3; lk 20,34). humanity will convert its astral body to the manas (spirit self) state on jupiter, its etheric body to the buddhi (life spirit) state on venus, and its physical body to the atma (spirit man) state on vulcan. only at the last point can the physical body be said to be resurrected, for it only then attains the redeemed state of its original form or pattern, what steiner refers to as its “phantom” (see “form/phantom”). this is the state of the “one like a son of man” portrayed in rev 1,12-16, which during earth evolution only the christ could represent. nevertheless, his resurrection was humanity’s assurance that even that eventual state is guaranteed to those who take the christ “i am” into their being. the witnesses to christ’s resurrection experienced both his purified, mineral-free, nonatomic, physical body (i.e., phantom) as well as his etheric body. they experienced this through christ-enabled organs of perception other than their senses as we today know them. (passages that seem to indicate otherwise, such as lk 24,43, jn 21,13 and jn 20,27, dealing with the eating of fish and placing a finger in his wounds, will be seen to have a literally different meaning than that superficially assumed. see, for instance, point #2 in “peter, james and john.”) in the same manner (acts 1,11), those whose organs are thus prepared can now experience his return, the second coming, in the etheric world. rudolf steiner has shown us the “path” (mt 7,13-14) to the development of those organs of perception (e.g.,knowledge of the higher worlds and its attainment [khw], as well as in numerous other works). "

[casinobonusese]

what's your thoughts on the second coming which is said to occur in like manner as he left earth?...with millions of angels

[Pelefaifs]

what's your thoughts on the second coming which is said to occur in like manner as he left earth?...with millions of angels

this was posted on another thread, but also applies here.

the following are excerpts from "seth speaks".

pages 370-371

"the historical jesus knew who he was, but he also knew that he was
one of three personalities composing one entity. to a large extent he
shared in the memory of the other two.

the third personality, mentioned many times by me, has not in your
terms yet appeared, although his existence has been prophesied as the
"second coming". now, these prophecies were given in terms of the
current culture at that time, and therefore, while the stage has been
set, the distortions are deplorable, for this christ will not come at
the end of your world as the prophecies have been maintaining.

he will not come to reward the righteous and send evildoers to eternal
doom. he will, however, begin a new religious drama. a certain
historical continuity will be maintained. as happened once before,
however, he will not be generally known for who he is. there will be
no glorious proclamation to which the whole world will bow. he will
return to straighten out christianity, which will be in a shambles at
the time of his arrival, and to set up a new system of thought when
the world is sorely in need of one.

page 372

there were three men whose lives became confused in history and
merged, and whose composite history became known as the life of
christ....each was highly gifted psychically, knew of his role, and
accepted it willingly. the three men were a part of one entity,
gaining physical existence in one time. they were not born on the same
date, however. there are reasons why the entity did not return as one
person. for one thing, the full consciousness of an entity would be
too strong for one physical vehicle. for another, the entity wanted a
more diversified environment that could otherwise be provided.

the entity was born once as john the "baptist, and then he was born in
two other forms. one of these contained the personality that most
stories of christ refer to....


page 373

the third historical personage, already born in your terms, and a
portion of the entire christ personality, took upon himself the role
of a zealot.

this person had superior energy and power and great organizing
abilities, but it was the errors that he made unwittingly that
perpetuated some dangerous distortions. the records of that historical
period are scattered and contradictory.

the man, historically now, was paul or saul. it was given to him to
set up a framework. but it was to be a framework of ideas, not of
regulations; of men, not of groups. here he fell down, and he will
return as the third personality, just mentioned, in your future.

page 374

when the third personality reemerges historically, however, he will
not be called the old paul, but will carry within him the
characteristics of all the three personalities.

page 376

i would like to make certain points clear. the "new" religion
following the second coming will not be christian in your terms,
although the third personality of christ will initiate it.

page 377

this personality will refer to the historical christ, will recognize
his relationship with that personality; but within him the three
personality groupings will form a new psychic entity, a different
psychological gestalt. as this metamorphosis takes place, it will
initiate a metamorphosis on a human level also, as man's inner
abilities are accepted and developed.

the results will be a different kind of existence. many of your
problems now result from spiritual ignorance. no man will look down
upon an individual from another race when he himself recognizes that
his own existence includes such membership also."

peace,
(:-deeze

[xrumerang]

how coould we grow exponentially quicker at the end of the cycle, without having to graduate to a much higher density of vibration and not have to be "shook-up" or "awakened" . that is the purpose of the negative. trust me "thay are doing their job!". you woould not have gowth without it. do not dwell upon the negative, simply be aware of their agenda so as not to fall into their belief system. bottom line : create your own world. and make it of love!

night night everyone!

[casinobonusese]

"oh riiiiight, so i create my own agenda...and serve myself a graduation...so i don't need god's hand to take me out of the grave but i'll crawl out myself...never mind the fact that god even gives me the life and energy that to even do it....hmmm never mind the laws of physics that says that energy vibrations must have a source....it's all in the law of inertia.....never mind god as being that influence...haahaha there are no laws of physics, i make the rules!" lol i'm being sarcastic....

life seems to be some meaningless paradox because the illusions we create become so real....but what defines real? how do you know you're not the one decieving yourself into believing something that isn't true and definite like a math equation?

i don't understand the pantheist belief system (which indeed it is). there are just some aspects that seem to contradict itself (creating a paradox).

if we are really gods and we make the rules and there is no solid belief system at all (except for the ones you invent) then eveyone is right and who cares? why sould i feel guilty in abusing the life i have and the life of others if life is mine?...and i am life? (if i'm god, then i am the source of my own energy vibrations an i need no god). why should i care about the life f christ whom i nailed to a tree with my sin of egoism if i am christ? hmm...does life have pricnicples or do i create them? what do i base my morals on? god's love is the priciple, but how is it relevant to me if i don't accept it?

why should i feel guilty if i harm a soul that god unonditionally gives his life for? if guilt doesn't exist i shouldn't even feel guilty to even believe guilt exists (but this is a paradox). why this paradox? it's true that we have to forgive, but before we can intelligently and truthfully "forgive", one must acknowledge that there was a wrong that actually existed. forgiveness is a a contract of offer and acceptance. you can offer forgiveness, but if i don't except it then you can't do anything about it. if i reject your forgiveness it may be because i failed to acknowledge my wrong and i don't really believe in love.

pantheism is nice in that it wants us to be like god, but it can easily go to the extreme of wanting to be a god, thus creating a god in your own image (instead of letting god create you in his image). it's true that god is love and he surrenders his life and power to us to let us do as we please (it's called the power of choice), but this can lead us away from god, the source of every pure vibration, thus leading to our self-destruction. serving self is the illusion that you won't really die, you are a god, you create your own rules. though death doesn't mean you cease to exist (part of you unconsciously falls into the first denisty of "dust" and another part is the spirit of life..which contains your memory), it would lead to the inevitable...returning to the service of god.

lol see, at the very end, every one will serve god, whether in the first dimension or in higher dimensions. "death" is indeed a sleep and god will wake us up, but he can't force you to. there will be many who will choose to not wake up. the bible says that only those who "hear his voice" will wake up.

you don't "make" or "create" love. love simply is what it is and it will create a world of love for you if you let it be in you.

[casinobonusese]

from what i inderstand, becoming born again, yes it's like a regeneration of the soul. the person is spiritually fueled with new and healthy energies. they are spiritually born again and i believe that the mental inent of asension is like being reborn already. it's like you're in the future now...o.o lol

[mpzoFeJs]

hello again,

i think its important to share experiences and ideas, not that anything is certainly right or wrong, but we may gain new insights from each other. so real quick i just want to say that i feel being 'born again' and awoken are two different things. i do believe it takes many experiences in different life's to reach a level where we can really 'awaken'. i dont look at being 'awaken' as the same as being 'born again'. just my thoughts on this convo. nothing more or less. to me, the bible does show that certain people that walked close with god did live former lives.

when we read about the prophets who ate no meant or strong drink and we read about john the baptist and james the righteous, neither of them ate meat or drank strong drank, god informed even their mothers to not let them partake of these things, we see here that these are souls that reached their vibrant level to be 'awoken' to the higher self. to me its very possible that these particular souls did these things because their intuitions that came from former lives told them what was pure for their bodies (instruments for god) and what was not.

just some thoughts...

peace to you,
lynette

[glasscollector]

the ra material basically says we are here to learn love no matter how pain full it is how ugly or smelly it is we need to be grateful for all our experiences just love others and be grateful, we are by design meant to suffer and be confused .

the bible on the other hand seemed to me to cause a split in consciousness as all are sinners even just by thinking a sinful thought one is as guilty as some one whom physically committed it.
so you can deny it all you want but that person or people you despise most is your equal a reflection of your self no matter what bias you have towards them or no matter how much you don't want to be like them no matter how far you run there is no escape as you are running from the idea of an eternal hell fire "pain and suffering" the idea which has been seeded in your mind by the words in the bible the world around you backs it up.

the world around us is full of pain and suffering although we try to sanitize or deny it as much as we can... none of us can escape old age suffering and death we may be able to defer it for a while but none are spared we are all destined for it.

so you have the choice of running from that fact hiding within your self despising yourself
and the world around you trying to find a way out as painlessly as possible or we can accept the fact that we are all screwed and forgive and love our selves and each other.

or you can believe some authority figure whom will protect you and keep you safe keep hell at bay so to speak even if you don't really believe him it beats taking responsibility for your self :d

[cepAceryTem]

dear lynette,
your post 15 excerpts from "holy twelve" that mentioned nicodemus.
wanted to share this:
am reminded of description shared by rudolf steiner about nicodemus. author emil bock detailed view expressed about his meeting w/jesus "by night" as more complex than ordinarily understood. bock explained that the use of the term "by night" meant that this was not a bodily encounter but rather a supersensible spiritual meeting, more indicative of nicodemus's initiate status and his recognition of jesus. nina