[AlissBart]

hypothetically speaking, it all sounds good and morally balanced to me, unless i'm missing something.

the printed anti-drug messages and marketing plans can't hurt anyone and might actually help a few along the way. and the goal of setting up healthful outlets for young people is certainly commendable and would probably be rewarding in many ways, both for you and for the youth you are helping.

we are all trying to make our way through this corrupt system in one way or another. using it to create an income for yourself and to provide benefits for others seems like a win/win situation, so i say go for it! and best of luck, by the way.

[Teligacio]

bravo, sounds like a good plan. my only *fyi* seriously look at what you sign on for before accepting grant monies. keep us posted on your progress, and happy helping!

[PRengin]

thanks guys, and i want to reiterate that this was strictly an exercise; i don't have anything going right now that operates along those lines, or plans to start something. it's just something that i have been rolling over in my mind recently: instead of fighting against the things that may strike us as sts, wouldn't ingratiation and subversion from within be more effective? for example, one of my pet peeves is people who picket abortion clinics. there was a family planning office between my house and my work a few years back, and there were these old people (retired, nothing better to do apparently) who used to stand outside, handing out plastic fetuses, yelling at girls who went in, and terrorizing the citizenry with graphic images of abortions from a tv in a stroller.

the first time i saw them, i realized that they suffered from the same delusion that most people that are "passionate" about their moral cause share: that those who disagree with them are unintelligent, crazy, or evil. so if i voiced my disagreement with them on our first meeting, i would be placed in this category and have little effect.

so i just smiled at them when i walked by instead. it was crazy. i didn't say anything, but they just assumed that i believed the same as them, and that i was supporting their cause (when in fact i was simply supporting them as human beings).

so after a week or so, they introduced themselves and we got on "good morning" terms. we would smile and say good morning to each other every day. we even made small talk, although i managed to excuse myself ("oops, late for work!") when the subject got to abortion.

when it finally came out, a couple of months down the road, that i very strongly disagreed with what they were doing, they were kind of stunned. but by that time they had already assigned me all the personality traits that we all assign to those who we believe agree with us: that i was intelligent, healthy, attractive, had a good job, was more like them in other areas etc.

so it was, psychologically, much harder to dismiss my opposition, and they were forced to think, for a moment, if maybe they were going about this the right way.

and i noticed, from that day on, that even though they didn't smile as broadly when we said good morning, they became more polite to others going in and out of the clinic (at least when i was there, anyway). i realized that direct conflict was horribly inefficient, akin to something like lighting your room with the glow from an electrical heater coil. and yet, people persevere in the belief that it will someday get them what they want.

but it's an odd feeling. i feel like i'm skimming the borderland betweem sts and sto. as an example, whenever i have a fight with my girlfiend, i immediately focus all of my attention squarely on her, tell her that i'm listening, and give her time to get out whatever grievances she may have. sometimes i even get out a paper and pencil and take notes.

the twist is, even as i'm doing this, i realize how unreasonable most of her demands can be, but i keep my mouth shut and my ears open and the whole thing is usually over in fifteen minutes. of course, she came in expecting a fight, so it usually ends with me giving her a hug and walking away and her standing there with her mouth open wondering what the hell just happened.

so on a conscious level, i realize that i am doing the sto thing by accepting her anger and not offering resistance to it; just letting it wash over me in a wave like relationship jiu-jitsu. but on another level i also know that i am controlling her; and doing it incredibly efficiently. i know that she has no choice after the argument is over than to cast herself as the "bad" one since she was the only one yelling and i showed myself to be the "good" one by taking her abuse. and so i know that she will get depressed the next day and come to me asking for forgiveness. and i know that she will wonder, in her mind, at how different i am than every other boy she's known, casting me as some kind of über-boyfriend and binding her more tightly to me. and so i feel that i am becoming more sts in this way. or at least enjoying sts-type results.

basically, what i'm saying is that use of sto principles can, and often does, yield the results that the sts-type seeks. and it leaves me confused: is pure service to others (with a heavy dose of patience, another important sts trait) the most efficient path towards exalting the self and controlling those around you?

or is it simply evidence that even polarity is an illusion, making degree, and not direction, of advancement the important factor?

[Vkowefek]

your experiences with the abortion protesters and with your girlfriend make me think of ra's description of the value of studying the archetypical mind. ra said that one of the purposes of studying the archetypes was to be able to call on them at will, but that great infringement was possible in doing so.

you have tapped into real power. now, how will you use it?

[prmnwoks]

basically, what i'm saying is that use of sto principles can, and often does, yield the results that the sts-type seeks. and it leaves me confused: is pure service to others (with a heavy dose of patience, another important sts trait) the most efficient path towards exalting the self and controlling those around you?

i suspect that there's not nearly as much difference in the two paths as we would like to believe. it's all service, we merely have different convictions, and the most efficient path is always that place where you you can be the most helpful, or the most effective in your chosen form of service.

i wouldn't worry to much about the sts path or effects, because i believe i remember ra saying the path is usually chosen late in 2d or very early in 3d, so i think we're all well past that point. there are a million paths back to the one infinite creator and as we journey along we might notice many of them merging together over time, until we are finally left with only two main paths, which i suspect become more similar over time, until one day, many eons in the future they will come together to form one.

[Teligacio]

i understand your dilemma over sts, sto. imo, when we really 'take care' of ourselves in the real loving sense, not as selfish love, we cannot help but serve others too as we are part of the whole. in your example with your girlfriend and the clinic i see you being more aware of the psychology behind typical human behavior. these insights are like tools that you use to make your way through life. i believe the answer to your question lies in your motive when you use them. much like the bullets of a gun cannot be 'bad' they can only be used in a bad way. check your motives, choose according to your own desires.

[poRmawayncmop]

i suspect that there's not nearly as much difference in the two paths as we would like to believe. it's all service, we merely have different convictions, and the most efficient path is always that place where you you can be the most helpful, or the most effective in your chosen form of service.

i wouldn't worry to much about the sts path or effects, because i believe i remember ra saying the path is usually chosen late in 2d or very early in 3d, so i think we're all well past that point. there are a million paths back to the one infinite creator and as we journey along we might notice many of them merging together over time, until we are finally left with only two main paths, which i suspect become more similar over time, until one day, many eons in the future they will come together to form one.

the main series of events that lead to my awakening circled around a very inspired concept that i felt the urge to write out. the story itself doesn't need to be explained, but the central idea was that there is no such thing as good or bad/evil, but rather only reason and doubt.

no matter what somebody thinks or believes, there's always reason behind it; my reason for believing something may be someone else's reason for doubting it. but in order to find reason, we have to doubt.

ultimately, we have to view our doubts as divisions, and therefore, illusions that can also be considered catalysts for change. eventually, our doubts would give way to reason (which is the same as saying that any number of seperate paths would eventually merge), and we would be left with a single division (or, two sides/paths/reasons). once this final division is bridged by means of reason, neither reason nor doubt exists, as all has been contemplated and understood. thus, the difference between you and i does not exist.


of course, these concepts are entirely familar to most of you, but i thought i'd share that bit of personal history

[brilkyPlayday]

hi to all! this is my third attempt to post on this thread. my first reply was cheeky and i deleted it after it was posted [which i was surprised at] and by the time i sent my second reply i was logged out and lost my work. it was either a sign that what i was saying was inappropriate or some other force didn't want this stuff floating around.

hi johnasmodeum! my initial reaction to your post was i must admit , negative. as the thread moved along, i became more and more judgemental.
i was really drawn into it however, and felt i should say something. while thinking about it i remembered a dream that i had over 20 years ago. during that period of my life, i was reading as many esoteric material as i could get my hands on and was also into tarot. i was using the thoth deck, so i very much had all the imagery of these particular cards deeply etched in my mind. in my dream, i was brought before the high priestess with justice standing in the distant background to the right. some cards were spread out in front of me and i was supposed to read them. perhaps not so much read them but present the knowledge that i had attained. i couln't think of anything and my reply was that i knew nothing. that was it. end of dream. when i woke up, i felt totally devastated. i had been given a chance to prove myself and i had failed miserably. i kept going over this time and time again, wondering why i had given such an answer when i knew so much.

yesterday, i remembered this dream again and went searching in the forum archives to get others insights on the priestess and came across a thread titled "free will." one of the posts is by tiffani boswell and in it she quotes the following from the ra and qu'o material.

"if you can trust destiny enough to release the attempts to control it, the natural waves moving out from the centre of that kindly destiny which is each seekers will gradually take that seeker upon the path and in the direction which is deeply desired."

"the greatest wisdom that you shall ever learn at this time is that you cannot know anything; in other words, that your incarnation is based completely upon faith. you are on a journey in uncharted waters and your intellect will not be able to be so wise as so steer your spiritual journey. many mistakenly attempt to live a spiritual life coming from the intellect and from wisdom. however, this energy does not make use of the open heart and it will not take you far. and those seas into which it pitches you will be as the seas you left behind to seek wisdom. it is our understanding, rather, that your destiny is a starkly simple stage set for making one choice again and again and that is the choice to love and to be loved."

isn't it just beautiful!

love
ds

[PRengin]

hey all,

i have a question. its not related to anything happening in my life right now, but it has been on my mind for some reason. it's more or less a moral exercise.

i was thinking about three factors: the massive amounts of money that are spent on antidrug programs and ads in america, the utter, and almost comical, failure of any of those programs to curb drug use (not because its impossible, but because its almost always gone about in the most short-sighted, ham-fisted way imaginable), and the sheer length of time that these pitiful programs have gone on for.

now. let's take someone like me, who is alert enough to recognize, at the same time, both the failure of these initiatives and the futility of efforts to change them (criticism of any of these programs pretty much gets you labeled a "pro-drug" hippie or pervert or something).

so let's say i start a company that creates and distributes anti-drug messages via internet and magazine, and additionally, prints anti-drug materials for distribution at schools.

i don't have to try very hard, since both parents and the government will throw money at at these things regardless of quality of work or results (metrics, even when effectiveness is measured, are vaguely defined and open to wide interpretation). so i can work fast, and in theory, get a better-than-average return on my investment. i have job stability, since the drug war will never be won, or lost, for that matter.

so, at the end of the day, i become rather well-off. then i take my newly available spare time and devote a portion of it to creating healthy clubs for kids that help them holistically, by giving them opportunities to associate with ach other and adults in ways that are psychologically rewarding.

as an example, it has always been a dream of mine to open boxing clubs in cities with poor school systems, giving young men and women opportunities to explore aggression (which is simply the natural expression of the manipura chakra coming into activity) in controlled environments, and re-teaching them the "ethics" of fighting and giving them pride in themselves both as individuals and identity as part of a larger group. physical conflict in a controlled environment also addresses the mythical potentials (campbell) that boys especially need outlets for, reducing the chance that they will find and activate the default outlets that we inherited from our ape ancestors (i.e. the formation of gangs).

this, and/or whatever other clubs i start and contribute to, reduce drug use simply by giving children what they really need: honest, non-pedagogical adult mentors, a sense of community with others their own age, and an awareness of their resposibility to teach protect those that are younger than them.

so basically i would be gaming a corrupt system (that is practically begging to be gamed anyway) in order to create opportunity for a positive result, and securing a comfortable standard of living for myself in the process.

so what do you think? good, bad, right, wrong, cynical, idealistic? do you think it balances out, morally?