[Xibizopt]

just a few questions about parenting here. i'm sure there are a lot of people who have gone through the teenage years with their kids and i could just use some advice. or people who are teenagers and could give me their perspective.

i having problems trying to figure out the whole discipline thing. i'm not sure how much is discipline and how much is really an issue with control.

he is 17. he's a great kid with a good heart. he pretty much figures that at this age he's his own boss and knows everything. (hence the fully enlightened). generally he's great, sticks to his curfew, doesn't go overboard experimenting with drugs or alcohol. goes to school most of the time. is a nice , respectful person most of the time. i am generally quite proud of him. we have "grounded" him a couple of times when he's screwed up and he's has agreed that he screwed up and taken the "punishment" without whining.

he doesn't agree with a lot of my beliefs and that's fine. he thinks i'm a little odd but still loves me regardless of what i believe.(and i still love him regardless of what he believes) hence i haven't discussed 2012 with him. i have tried to discuss some neat stuff to try and get him interested in the mysterious unseen world but he's not into it. i do have lots of different books lying around and shortcuts to cool websites (like this one) on the computer so there is stuff around should he ever get curious. so as far as he knows, life is going to keep going on for several years after highschool (as it may for him, who knows)

anyways what this is all leading to is that lately a couple of times he's just been skipping classes (yes i did the same thing as a student) and then this morning he pretty much came out and told me he wasn't going to school and then after a bit of arguing he said that he would go after he slept for another half an hour. after the half and hour was up he got up and went to school and couldn't figure out why i was still a bit mad.

should i have just said "okay honey, let me know when you are ready" whatever you want is fine? it's your choice.

so how should i have handled it? in my new calm centered persona i am not supposed to get upset anymore. i am not supposed to get bothered by any of this stuff, right? from david's 2012 enigma talk:

if somebody else upsets you, the only reason why they would is because they are hitting an issue that you have. so if somebody does something and it no longer is your issue then you won’t be upset by them. so one the one hand i was upset because i thought he should have a little more discipline and dedication and be a little more committed to school because those are good traits to learn. to be committed and dedicated to whatever you are doing.

on the other hand in another year he could easily be off on his own, making his own decisions so why not start now?

i do believe discipline is important but i can't make him do anything. i guess what i am wondering is how do i discipline without getting emotionally involved and is discipline just another method of trying to control someone.

my mum said to me the last time i visited her that when we were teenagers (i have a brother a year older and a sister a year younger and we were definitely up to no good a few times) that when we did something "wrong" they could never decide what to do, so they ended up doing nothing. we all turned out okay i think.

i know part of it is that i think that as a "good parent" it reflects badly on me when he doesn't go to school.

is 18 the magic number where we are all of a sudden no longer responsible for what our children do? are we ever truly , completely responsible? or on the other hand are we ever, truly completely not responsible.

anyways, looks like i've still got a bunch of stuff to learn if anyone could help me out it would be great!

thanks,

megan

[Sarah Armstrong]

hi megan!

you could still tell him what you think and put healthy boundaries, without getting upset in the first place....

liliane

[IssuessBratte]

hi, megan

ah yes, teenagers...

i have four boys, 11, 15, 17 and 20. since cathy and i separated nine years ago, i have had them primarily on alternate weekends, aside from james, my oldest, who lived with me for five years until he was 17.

james was always a special needs child, and was separated from the regular school stream in grade one, as he was considered a danger to the other kids.

add, adhd, odd, (oppositional defiance disorder, or something like that) are some of the labels he has been pasted with over the years.

he came to live with me, at around 12, as he was a physical danger to his younger brothers and his mother, was heavily into drugs and alcohol, and associated with older, gang affiliated people. i have a tiny, one bedroom condo, and he had to bunk in the walk-in closet off the laundry room. this arrangement i felt preferable to packing him off to a group home, as i knew that with me, he would have the benefit of his father's love.

now this was a boy who did what he pleased in our house, and despite years of family counselling sessions, refused to follow any guidelines at school or at home. he wouldn't go to school at all to speak of, could not be grounded, cut up my furniture with knives, burned things with matches, i could go on and on.

once when he first came to live with me, i sat on him for three hours to try to force him to abide a grounding, and it was like a scene from the exorcist. he went out when i tired.

throughout these years of extreme heartbreak for me expecting him to die at any time, (literally, it was worse than i can express) i knew that his path was his own, nevertheless. but i gradually became aware that he had a deep admiration for me, and inside he was grateful for my sticking by him; and i knew that i had a counter-balancing influence on him that might save his life. i became aware that i had to let him do his thing, and hope that an acceptance of all he was might help to lessen his..whatever it was.

so i removed all valuable breakables, sharp knives, etc, put a bolt on my bedroom door and put my computer and a small fridge in there to keep some food and drink free from pillage and contamination with **** and vomit, and lived in my bedroom. he took the rest of the house and proceeded to meet the world on his own terms. i had only one rule i could enforce:

get in my face too much in my own home, and you're out for 24 hours. no discussion, no argument.

and at seventeen, when he became big enough to follow through on his threats of grievous bodily harm, he was told to leave for good, and he did.

love and acceptance and support was always the rule, throughout all of this, and still is.

he went on the streets, eventually got himself into a group home with help from his mother and me, left, went to jail for assault and theft, got out, went back to school, will graduate grade 12 in 3 months, and has a little apartment of his own.

he comes to visit for weekends, and knows i will not engage him but ask him to leave if necessary; he knows if he threatens violence, it will be a long time before he is invited back. this is great anger control therapy for him. he loves coming to my house, where he gets to see his brothers, whom he loves, and who love him back.

he has met himself on his own terms, and has turned a corner.

it took me six months to gradually move back out of my bedroom, and into the rest of my place.

i think i had something to say to you here, megan; i re-read your post just now, and i guess what i have to offer is that love and acceptance can conquer all - offer your son love and acceptance of his choices - be there to talk person-to-person, and know that he is the best judge of his own path of becoming.

he will love your valuable council, and benefit from it; more than is apparent, now. we cannot change our children, only offer good example, council, and communion one to one.

so glory in his opportunity to live; through his own difficult path, he will make you proud, as i am proud of my kids!:d

mark

[avaiptutt]

hi megan

you sound a lot like me and your son sounds a lot like my older daughter who is now 21. so i have a bit of experience and have often had the same questions as you, especially since i’ve pretty much raised her on my own since she was 7.

generally he's great, sticks to his curfew, doesn't go overboard experimenting with drugs or alcohol. goes to school most of the time. is a nice , respectful person most of the time.

he sounds great. you have obviously done a great job so far, so you probably don’t need to be questioning your parenting skills.

i believe that once kids get to a certain age they need to start making some of their own decisions in order to be become independent. how else are they going to learn, if not by their mistakes?

i do believe discipline is important but i can't make him do anything. i guess what i am wondering is how do i discipline without getting emotionally involved and is discipline just another method of trying to control someone. i believe that teenagers need rules and boundaries after all, they are still children and they are living in our homes. however, if you try to control them, they just rebel against you. it’s a fine line, isn’t it?

anyways what this is all leading to is that lately a couple of times he's just been skipping classes (yes i did the same thing as a student) and then this morning he pretty much came out and told me he wasn't going to school and then after a bit of arguing he said that he would go after he slept for another half an hour. after the half and hour was up he got up and went to school and couldn't figure out why i was still a bit mad. how are his grades? you said he doesn’t too skip often. yes, we all did it. we were asserting our independence, no doubt. look at it this way, he’s not doing it behind your back. that’s more than most parents can say. perhaps, it may have been wise to respect his decision if this is a rare occurrence and he wasn’t hiding it from you.

if it becomes a habit, show him the want ads and let him see what kind of a job he can get without even a high school education.

i know part of it is that i think that as a "good parent" it reflects badly on me when he doesn't go to school. this fits right in with the wonderful quote from david you posted. this is your issue. i could write a whole post on just that quote.

are we really ever responsible for what our children do, megan? they are on their on path. all we can really do is encourage them, love them, lead by example and offer our guidance. whether they listen or not, that’s another thing. as you said, they also think they know it all.

he thinks i'm a little odd but still loves me regardless of what i believe. that’s funny. my daughter think’s i’m odd too since i’ve awakened. she skipped classes as well in high school and thought she knew it all. i never disciplined her much other than the odd grounding. she will be graduating from her 4th year of university next month. she’s a good kid. i believe a soft approach with good values mixed in actually works well.

it sounds to me like you have good strong values and this has already been impacted on him for the last 17 years. trust him, trust yourself.

imho
kris

[Xibizopt]

okay so i thought i told kelly the other day that i was much more calm cool and collected than a year ago, but by the time i finished both your responses i was crying away!

thanks so much for your heartfelt responses. you guys have really helped me out.

i can only imagine mark what would have happened to james had you not been there for him.

throughout these years of extreme heartbreak for me expecting him to die at any time i can imagine the pain that would have caused you. i think my heart would have literally broken had i had to go through the same thing. you are very strong.

love and acceptance and support was always the rule, throughout all of this, and still is. that is so important.

he has met himself on his own terms, and has turned a corner you must be very proud. great picture of your kids. four boys, i'll bet it was a very quiet household (not).

it will be so nice to have this darn veil lifted so we can finally see the bigger picture.

i do try to offer my unconditional love and acceptance but i guess i just wonder what makes me the authority on what luke's "best interests" are. when he was little for sure, but now that he's getting older is it really worth the battle? believe me i have tried the calm and cool approach

you could still tell him what you think and put healthy boundaries, without getting upset in the first place.... and he just stays calm and cool himself and says "yes i'll get right on that " and then doesn't do what i have asked him to do. or just stands firm and says no. and he has paid the price for lots of his choices.

i believe that teenagers need rules and boundaries after all, they are still children and they are living in our homes. however, if you try to control them, they just rebel against you. it’s a fine line, isn’t it?
it is a fine line. he is not hurting himself or anyone else. his marks aren't great but he is passing everything. i'm pretty sure he's not going to go to university, but he may go to college. there is also a good chance that he may just move out west and become a ski bum like his parents did. i am fine with all of those choices.

i believe a soft approach with good values mixed in actually works well. that is so true. but what if he doesn't agree with my values? that is his choice. i guess the best i can do is the best i can do. and not beat myself up when he doesn't agree with me.

thanks again.

love megan

[TNOULbr2]

im not really a parent, but i am 21 years old, and i can remember the one thing i loved hearing from my parents when i was younger.. i loved it when they told me they loved me, and that gave me motivation and understanding, to keep going with whatever i was doing.

but im sure your a greap parent, keep it up!

[Xibizopt]

i loved it when they told me they loved me, thanks metaphysics!! that is one thing i am pretty good at doing.

megan

[WapSaibiar]

funny thing...on my birthday this year my newly turned 18 yr old daughter decided she was leaving. she took off with the love of her life in january and now in march they are not together anymore, yet she will still not come home. she has taken up residency oddly enough with the aforementioned boyfriend's aunt and prefers living there since she now smokes (a shock to me as i quit almost 2 years ago at her request...really it was time) and so do they, i am thinking she just wants the security of adults without them actually being her parents (needless to say that has been very hurtful). she started lying and making me out to be a monster (in the meantime i am trying sooooo hard to be the new calm, mannerly, we are all one, spiritual person...lol). she even had these people that took her in believing that i threw her out on the street! i was and still am in a state of shock. i could not and still do not understand this.

she broke my heart.

it was indeed the biggest lesson of my life thus far. it has changed me forever and what i think on the outside looks to her and others as coldness is actually me being strong (i cried for so long) and letting her experience for herself. since the fresh lesson that i cannot do it for her. i am traumatized by the things she has done. did i mention she quit school? a senior mind you!!! months away. omg the worst!

i finally gave up the control. it was hard. it is hard. knowing how hard it is going to be for her hurts me. not knowing where she is everyday and every time i hear a siren...my heart leaps still...is painful and how much i worry....walking past her doorway sometimes still makes me cry.

it is a long hard process to let go (and let god as they say). we were so close...all my friends always remarked on how awesome my kids were and how they thought i was just the greatest mom, how much they admired our relationship and they hoped to be like me when they have kids. i want to tell them now...no!!! don't ever have kids...they will break your heart...but that is not the truth either, is it? once you have them, everything is different. it was like she was such a good kid...and had been saving it all up for one dramatic exit. i am sure it will all work out. i keep telling myself this. inside i am angry and want to say ugly things to the woman that took her in and part of me wants to go make her come home...i cannot even talk about it because i get angry still, like my daughter was stolen...but i know there has to be a reason for all this. i cried like a baby...how did i fail? what did i do wrong? is it because i was such a liberal parent? should i have spanked her? did i complain too much about her room and chores? does she really think i am that weird? i think i had to learn that i did not own her. as much as i thought i did. my plans were evidently not hers...at least right now. people tell me she will be sorry. i don't want her to be sorry. i just want her to be...regret is not something i ever wanted for her.

let's just say she turned into someone i did not know at all! suddenly. she coldly stormed out as the rest of the family cried and did not call for days. my comfort was seeing she was signed into my space...lol. my greatest comfort has been that (besides her being indigo..lol) i made it. i left young and know it can be done. that is my only solace. i know she is not coming back to me the way it was before...all i can do is tell her i love her and she is welcome anytime. i can't dwell anymore on my failings...because i did not fail. she is a wonderful person and she will see that. we all remember what it was like, right? i just knew it all at 18. the lesson was ultimately for me. i have grown and learned i can handle far more than i thought i could.

i do not know why i spilled all this...hope it helps someone. for those of you who know of this already thanks for being my friends and it has gotten better. i am already planning on getting away and trying to begin my life again. i am now a bit more free in a sense. i get to hang out with me more.

[Xibizopt]

oh my goodness teresa. i can feel your pain from here and i just want to give you a big hug.

a couple of years ago things in my household were not nearly as harmonious as they are now. a lot of it was because the living situation we were in was not the living situation i had envisioned for myself and my family. i was blaming everyone else as well as myself and there was a lot of arguing going on.

during this time my normally lovely son had started saying some really nasty things to me. it completely hurt my feelings and i would generally end up crying in my room. then he would do it again and then say something to the effect of "all you're going to do is go into your room and cry anyways". i would sit in my room crying. i would tell my husband that i didn't know if i could forgive my son. i felt literally shattered that i thought that he cared so little for me that he could hurt me so deeply.

she broke my heart.
it was a very tough time for us all. part of me thought that he had found a way to have power because he felt powerless before for some reason. possibly because his whole family was out of whack for a while. he found a way that he was in charge.

i can't even remember when it changed. i think it changed when i finally accepted my living situation. started to see the gifts and the positive aspects of what we were going through. i prayed and asked my higher self for guidance.it seems that since i have changed everyone else has changed as well. i am much more accepting of what is happening and so is everyone else.

as far as your daughter goes i don't think simple words of mine are going to help much. perhaps because she was so close to you she had to do something irreparable to create a rift between the two of you so that she couldn't "come crawling back home". she would have felt she failed if she went back home. so in order to justify staying at the boyfriends aunts place she had to really cut ties with you and unfortunately that involved hurting you. (i am just guessing here of course). i am sure she stills loves you deeply.

this is the hardest thing isn't it.

i finally gave up the control. it was hard. it is hard. knowing how hard it is going to be for her hurts me. not knowing where she is everyday and every time i hear a siren...my heart leaps still...is painful and how much i worry....walking past her doorway sometimes still makes me cry. i can't dwell anymore on my failings...because i did not fail. she is a wonderful person and she will see that when i read things like that i know you are going to be okay. it is really nice to hear other peoples experiences with their children because we are all so good at judging ourselves, and thinking ourselves to be less than others. (i know i think that) .

as ewhaz stated ever so eloquently in the thread on food maters:

we are all perfect.. just the way we are, how we are, what we are.. to begin with. period. will we change and grow and move in astounding ways? absolutely, thats the true fun of being. not 'trying' to be this or that (which carries the message of it being distant from you, and needing something to be worthy) but being, just being.

i love it when i can really capture that feeling of being perfect already, of loving myself and all my flaws irregardless and seeing them as a vast tapestry of greatness, creativity and endless opportunity. i am worthy, i am love and loved. we are all part of all that is, interconnected and a very beautiful tapestry. i can't truly explain what it is i see when i feel this way, other than to say everything is alright and going to be fine. to say that any one among us for any reason is unworthy or 'bad' for lack of a better term reflects on our feelings for ourselves. no one is required to be where you expect them, only required to be. the beauty of their own path should inspire you to see the beauty of our own and revel in the experience. we are one and perfect in every way i think i need to read something like that everyday. it is so true.

take care,

lots of love,

megan

[Elissetecausa]

is discipline just another way of controlling people? i would say yes.

there is a difference between punishment and communication. with young children who do not have the full use of their logical faculties, sometimes you do something physical to communicate to them. you put them in their room, or ground them, or whatever. you are instituting some kind of control and the idea is to communicate that you don't want them to do it.

so what if they hear your communication and keep disobeying? do you now escalate? do you start with yelling at them, escalate to shaming them, escalate to removing support, escalate to throwing them out, escalate to beating them, escalate to murder?

all of these behaviors are on the negative path towards control. you have moved into the realm of punishment and control rather than love and communication.

to begin with, a 17 year old is obviously old enough to make his own choices. children are realistically able to run their own lives after puberty. sure, they may be what society calls "immature" and they may do stupid things, but that is a major part of life. they do not benefit by having some authority figure shadow them, and then every time they make a mistake the authority figure dumps on a bunch of extra challenges and suffering.

the role of a parent is not to control or dominate. it is not to force. it is to nurture, but not smother - this means that the child chooses when to be nurtured. you cannot force someone to be nurtured. you can't say to your son, "if you don't let me nurture you, i will beat you to death!"

it doesn't work. it makes no sense. yet this is what many many parents try to do, this is what society in general teaches parents to do. it teaches to punish and to maim and to harm and to threaten and to use leverage and take control.

this is all negative, old-world, patriarchal thinking.

new world, positive thinking is about being available for the child when they come to you.

your son has decided that sometimes it's better to sleep in a bit than to go to school immediately. he is a living, breathing, thinking, human being, and i'm told he is pretty smart. why do you expect him to agree with your judgments on everything? it is inevitable that there will be times you disagree about things. your role as a parent is not to create a carbon copy of yourself, you are not raising a clone, you are not molding a sculpture. you are providing love and genetic material and physical safety, and your child is using these raw materials to create his own sculpture to *his* specifications. not yours.

he is certainly grateful that you provide him with many raw materials, but just because you are funding the project doesn't mean you have creative control. you don't. it's his baby, even if he is your baby.

you will disagree on things. if you choose to then enforce your will upon him using various tactics of manipulation and control, you are following the negative path.

if you choose to accept his choices (even if you disagree with them) and to nurture him in whatever path he freely chooses, you are following the positive path.

when you spray a cat with a squirt gun, you aren't doing it to manipulate him. you are doing it for communication. you don't need to use a squirt gun on a 17 year old, he speaks english. and he understands english. and he has god-given free will, and he may use it to ignore you.

are you going to try to take away the free will that god gave him and subject him to your free will instead?

love, communication, acceptance... please don't expect your children to behave in the way you want them to. they never have at any point in history, and never will. why? because they are not you, they are a different person with different tastes.

let me tell you about my own life. oftentimes throughout my childhood something bad will have happened to me. maybe i failed a class, maybe i was behaving irresponsibly with respect to work, whatever.

these things weren't the fault of my parents. they were entirely my issues, and part of me growing was learning to deal with these issues.

so let's say i fail a class because i'm acting irresponsibly. my fault, and i feel terrible shame because of it. i think it was really stupid of me to behave the way i did, and of course i knew before i failed that i would. i knew it would happen, i was being stupid. i was making mistakes, being hedonistic, putting off homework, whatever. and then i fail, and now added to the initial problem that was causing me to fail in the first place, i have a bunch of shame and feelings of inadequacy. it's very embarrassing. my mom's approach to dealing with this was to punish me in every way she could think of. shaming me, insulting me, accusing me of having negative intentions. she would tell my extended family and i would feel all kinds of anxiety and shame in facing my family at family greetings because of this. i would have my extended family now on me too - they also shaming me and scolding me for stuff i didn't even know they knew about.

basically i was in a rough spot in my life, and my mom's approach was to make it even harder on me. i fell into a pile of **** and my mom said, "i know what will help! i'll dump more **** on your head!"

a kid is drowning and instead of throwing him a liferaft you start threatening him. "don't you dare drown or you'll be sorry!"

so you know those raw materials i talked about? love, money, genetic material that parents give to their kids? when i failed a class my mom's approach was to threaten me with the removal of these. now that i failed, she tells me if i fail anymore classes she will remove her monetary support. (this was at university) and she had already removed her "love" support because i learned early on that love and grades go together. no love without high marks.

it's ridiculous isn't it? but in the mind of my mom, she is doing these things out of love, and she honestly believes to this day that these tactics were helping me.

so after being threatened with the removal of monetary support i am supposed to continue my life, but now i'm terrified of all kinds of things. my anxiety grows, my shame grows, i'm terrified while taking classes because all i can think of is what will happen to me if i fail again, if i act irresponsibly. meanwhile, the original problem i was having that caused my initial failure is going unaddressed because i am having all these new problems dumped on me.

my mom seriously believed (and still does) that if she did not (and does not, because it never ends no matter how old i am) harm me or threaten me, that i would just go throw my life away. she seems to think that the purpose of my life is to avoid her punishment and without her punishment i would have no reason to live.

so anyway you may say this is an extreme example, and i suppose it is, i would probably kill to have a mother like you. but why are you going to take any plays out of the playbook of a mother like mine?

if your son stays up too late (makes a mistake) and then makes the judgment that it's better for him to sleep an extra 30 than to spend the whole day tired, are you helping by arguing with him and trying to manipulate him?

maybe the right thing to do is make him coffee and wish him a nice day?

[Xibizopt]

yossarian,

first of i would like to thank you for responding. you had a great deal to say a lot of which makes a lot of sense.

so what if they hear your communication and keep disobeying? do you now escalate? do you start with yelling at them, escalate to shaming them, escalate to removing support, escalate to throwing them out, escalate to beating them, escalate to murder? i will be the first to admit that there have been times earlier while parenting where i did lose control. i would generally scream at the top of my lungs. i did not know how to handle it. i would not go so far as to injure my son physically but i am sure that i damaged him emotionally. i have since apologized to him and while i do tend to raise my voice on occasion it has been years since i have gotten even close to that stage. i believe that it was getting to that stage and almost escalating into physicality that helped to stop that behaviour.

i have only recently forgiven myself for this behaviour.

to begin with, a 17 year old is obviously old enough to make his own choices. children are realistically able to run their own lives after puberty. once again i do not agree with you totally here either. when you live with other people whether your parents, siblings, friends what your choices are can affect them as well. for example i know a teenager who decided to have a small party at his dad's house while his dad was out of town. 150 of his closest friends showed up for it. luckily my husband broke it up an hour and a half into the party and the house did not get destroyed. this same teenager profusely thanked my husband for showing up when he did.

now truth be told , he didn't invite 150 people, but in this day and age of instant messaging etc. all it takes is one round of party at so and so's place before it is out of control.

on another occasion my son was left at home by himself for the weekend. my husband and i were having a rare weekend away visiting friends. we got two seperate phone calls regarding my son that weekend, one from the cops , and one from his uncle regarding issues that were happening. yes what happened was totally a learning experience for him and no one was seriously injured but when we were invited again a couple of weeks later we didn't go. our weekend together was not quite as relaxing as it could be due to worrying and not knowing everything.

the role of a parent is not to control or dominate. it is not to force. it is to nurture, but not smother - this means that the child chooses when to be nurtured. you cannot force someone to be nurtured. you can't say to your son, "if you don't let me nurture you, i will beat you to death!" i truly believe that i am not dominating or controlling him excessively. but i don't see anything wrong with a little gentle guidance. i can also tell when he wants to be left alone or wants nothing to do with me. and believe me i stay away then.

new world, positive thinking is about being available for the child when they come to you i also believe that any relationship is a two way street. each side gives a little, each side gets a little.

. your role as a parent is not to create a carbon copy of yourself, you are not raising a clone, you are not molding a sculpture. you are providing love and genetic material and physical safety, and your child is using these raw materials to create his own sculpture to *his* specifications. not yours. i totally one hundred percent agree with you on this one.

if you choose to accept his choices (even if you disagree with them) and to nurture him in whatever path he freely chooses, you are following the positive path i mostly agree with you on that except for when his choices affect other people. while he is still at home these choices can affect me as well.i honestly am behind him on whatever career or non career choice he makes. if he is looking for suggestions i will offer them but i totally agree that it is up to him.

your son has decided that sometimes it's better to sleep in a bit than to go to school immediately you know i suppose you are probably right on that. it didn't really hurt a lot him missing part of the day. however we let him take several extra days off in order to go on an extended spring break ski vacation. it's a bit of give and take.

and yes it is a characteristic in myself that i always try to be on time and if i make a commitment i like to follow through. yes i do realize he doesn't have the same ideals. yes i do realize that he doesn't have the drive and determination i had when it came to school.(and that's okay) but i also think that (as a parent) it is not necessarily wrong to try and instill those ideals in him.


[ my mom's approach to dealing with this was to punish me in every way she could think of. shaming me, insulting me, accusing me of having negative intentions my heart truly goes out to you. i can't imagine how you must feel. and from the bottom of my heart i will reexamine every action of mine to make sure it doesn't contain any of the above.

my son had several issues with bullies growing up and so i have always been rather careful to not try and hurt his feelings or tease him

the thing is though is that i am human. i know for a fact that there have been times where i have probably hurt anothers feelings or overstepped my boundaries. i still do have occasions where i lose my temper.

we are all on this planet learning together. i am so happy that you have found the divine cosmos site. i trust that because you are here you are on the path, learning and growing and hopefully learning to love again. i know you will find your way.

i only hope that some day you can find it in your heart to forgive your mother.

i by no means mean to judge or lay blame or do any of that.

i will leave you with a quote from one of david's readings, hopefully you will find some peace it in.

and thus, even as you struggle with your lessons and occasionally falter at the gate, there is only purity and balance inherent in this universe. we thank you, and we remind you that you are loved more than you could ever possibly imagine. we do realize that you are becoming more and more capable of seeing that for yourself, and this pleases us. go forward, then, in the light and in the love of the one infinite creator, realizing your true potential in every moment of your existence, in every thing that you see, everything that you touch and everything that you are becoming moment by moment. i truly do thank you for your thoughts.

love,

megan

[sigrekatonov]

all my perspective of course.

firstly, run his human design chart (the 'new' astrology that i talked about in the other section) that would tell you something about how he relates to the world and some of his underlying mechanics that would probably affect these choices. for instance, if he is a manifestor. those that have to make their own decisions and are designed not to be controlled, he would have a different mechanism to another type, such as a projector.

secondly. coming at it from another pespective. people are tougher than that, don't worry so much about the shouting. keep your self respect but don't worry about it.

[Elissetecausa]

i appreciate your words. i suppose there is still plenty of anger below the surface my consciousness and i'm sure it comes out, and you've probably picked up on that. i hope you understand that none is directed towards you.

when i said that children are able of handling themselves, i don't mean to say that they don't need help. i mean to say that, cosmically speaking, they're fine. there is a big big difference between a two year old playing with scissors and a 17 year old having a party.

the difference is life and death.

the 2 year old's very life is threatened, whereas whatever damage that may be caused due to an out of control party is always going to be transient. on the cosmic scale, it's not a big deal.

there is a lot of give and take in any relationship, not just between parents and children. in my opinion the parental relationship should not be far different from any kind of normal close-friend relationship where one person has a significant power advantage over the other.

when you exert your authority, you are using a force of domination and control. this force is sometimes necessary - the 2 year old is playing with scissors, he just might stab himself. time to intervene with force.

the two year old doesn't make an argument, he doesn't reason out his actions. he is just playing. the two year old says, "shiny!!" and grabs the scissors.

this is not comparable to most of the behaviors of teenagers. instead, a teenager actively chooses and typically understands his choice and understands the conventional consequences. a teenager is about a million times more sophisticated than a 2 year-old. why do parents often treat a teenager like a 2 year old?

if you tell your kid, "go to school now." and he says, "no. i'm choosing to take my own counsel on this issue" that is so very different.

i can imagine how hard it is to be a parent and have a child, and have the child evolve from something with the relative intelligence of an amoeba, into something with the relative intelligence of a cat, into something that is more sophisticated yet, and then into a young adult being a fully-fledged physical adult with a fully developed brain who happens to have little life experience.

i can imagine how strange it is to have to constantly redefine your behaviour towards this creature. and i suppose that is the challenge.

but in my opinion a large amount of social dysfunction is caused by adults treating 15 year olds (who have the body and intelligence of an adult, but also have little life experience) as if they were a 2 year old who needs to have their behaviour manipulated through reward and punishment.

reward and punishment is for those who can't speak. if you advise your child to do something wise, and he disobeys, and it turns out bad, that is enough punishment in itself. and it may take several failures and several disobediences for him to realize the wisdom inherent.

most of the time life goes on without major harm. a child can receive advice from a countless number of adults who are always eager to give advice.

but every person has only one mother who can give that motherly unconditional support. and unconditional includes the right to disobey.

[Xibizopt]

yossarian,

i think there is a large difference between treating a 15 year old as a 2 year old and treating a 15 year old as a 15 year old. we give our son tons of freedom but just saying do what you want whenever you want is okay with us is just not going to happen. not while he is living with us.

not that we don't let him do mostly whatever he wants whenever he wants anyways we just don't tell him that. we try to give him some basic guidelines of how late to stay out. no he doesn't always behave.

i don't think we have obsessively "punished him or grounded" him ever. he could also should he choose, walk out of the house and do whatever he wants. we can't physically stop him.



but in my opinion a large amount of social dysfunction is caused by adults treating 15 year olds (who have the body and intelligence of an adult, but also have little life experience) as if they were a 2 year old who needs to have their behaviour manipulated through reward and punishment.

my parents let me do pretty much anything. and i hate to break it to you, but all that freedom and lack of boundaries led me to feel that they really didn't care. some guidelines are necessary. i think either extreme is just that extreme.

i know in the big picture that everything is okay and perfect, including what happened between you and your mother and a party that goes out of control. it is sometimes hard to see why these things happen.

why do children have parents then if not for guidance and support.

but every person has only one mother who can give that motherly unconditional support. and unconditional includes the right to disobey. i agree, i would never expect my son to obey my every word and command. we have a relationship based on mutual love and respect. it is not a queen to servant type thing. we talk about things. but if a choice he makes hurts someone other than himself, we are going to talk about it. just because we talk about something does not mean that i do not love him unconditionally. just because i do not agree with all of his choices do i not love him unconditionally.

reward and punishment is for those who can't speak. if you advise your child to do something wise, and he disobeys, and it turns out bad, that is enough punishment in itself. and it may take several failures and several disobediences for him to realize the wisdom inherant. like i said, we talk about things. quite often he decides himself what and if the "punishment" should be.

let me know how you feel when you are a parent and you are waiting for your teen to come home and it's 2 in the morning.

let me know when your teen has an out of control party and destroys someone's house. will you just say "don't worry son, its all just fine in the cosmic scheme of things, i'll take care of the $50,000 in repairs, because i know you have learned your lesson."

the difference is life and death. there is more to life than life and death, there is everything in between.

yes i do trust that pretty much any decision that he makes will likely not be a matter of life or death. he is a great kid and i am proud of him.



i guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on certain aspects.

megan

[avaiptutt]

on another occasion my son was left at home by himself for the weekend. my husband and i were having a rare weekend away visiting friends. we got two seperate phone calls regarding my son that weekend, one from the cops , and one from his uncle regarding issues that were happening. the same thing happened to me two years in a row when i left my then 18/19year old daughter at home for the weekend. obviously, she was old enough, but not mature enough. it was just noise complaints that brought the police both times, but she needed to learn to respect the rights of my neighbours to peace and quiet after a certain time at night.

for example i know a teenager who decided to have a small party at his dad's house while his dad was out of town. 150 of his closest friends showed up for it. luckily my husband broke it up an hour and a half into the party and the house did not get destroyed. this same teenager profusely thanked my husband for showing up when he did.

now truth be told , he didn't invite 150 people, but in this day and age of instant messaging etc. all it takes is one round of party at so and so's place before it is out of control. this is so true. the problem is that although our teenagers may be good kids and so are there immediate circle, you read in the paper all the time about parties that end up with stabbings and guns and all kinds of violence because some of the kids that show up are kids that are unknown to the group and may be very troubled, violent kids.

it is our role as parents to protect our children to the best of our ability. and teenagers are still children. they have not had enough experience to know how to deal with 150 people coming to the door. your husband, megan, may have saved more than a destroyed house and the kid in question, thanked him because he did not have the experience to deal with what happened.

my parents let me do pretty much anything. and i hate to break it to you, but all that freedom and lack of boundaries led me to feel that they really didn't care. some guidelines are necessary. i think either extreme is just that extreme again, i couldn’t agree with you more. children, perhaps especially teenagers, do know that we care by setting boundaries. it is important. i believe too much freedom and letting a kid do whatever they want is a form of neglect. but as i said in my prior post, i also believe that they need a certain amount of freedom in which to learn and grow from their own mistakes.

let me know when your teen has an out of control party and destroys someone's house. will you just say "don't worry son, its all just fine in the cosmic scheme of things, i'll take care of the $50,000 in repairs, because i know you have learned your lesson." or even worse, what if someone is murdered. perhaps coming from a big city makes me more paranoid than most, but, again, it is our job to protect our children (and our homes).

megan, you sound like you offer your son a perfect balance of freedom with responsibility; love and guidance. you needn’t question yourself nor feel you have to defend yourself to anybody.

none of us will ever be perfect parents, all we can do is try our best.

much love
kris

[Elissetecausa]

let me know when your teen has an out of control party and destroys someone's house. will you just say "don't worry son, its all just fine in the cosmic scheme of things, i'll take care of the $50,000 in repairs, because i know you have learned your lesson."

"when that house was destroyed by the party, i felt sad because i don't want other people to have their homes ruined. would you please join me in offering to help these people fix up their house?"

or, if the party is at your house and just beginning:

"as this party forms in my house, i feel hurt because i don't want to feel like the condition and soundness of my home is being threatened. will you please end this party?"

i realize that my approach to communication is very far from the mainstream approach which is based entirely on negotiation through the leveraging of power differentials in dominance hierarchies.

however, since we're on a website that offers proof of aliens, and talks about the virtues of non-violence and unconditional love... what i'm trying to say is that i don't think these are just academic principles to read about, but that they are functional and pragmatic things that can be implemented in real life.

for thousands of years parents have controlled their children through punishment. it's become so natural that society has forgotten that there are alternatives.

the alternative is not to let the child run the house. the alternative is to awaken the compassion in others through self-sacrificial, non-violent communication.

http://www.cnvc.org/node/393

are people really so cynical that they think if you open yourself up to a child - open yourself genuinely, explain your feelings, and then request (not demand) the child to help you, that the child will then turn up his nose and spurn you?

and that then if the child does spurn you and you remain compassionate, refuse to judge or blame, and instead just continue to express genuine feelings and make genuine compassionate requests, that he'll continue to spurn you and go do something dangerous?

in my opinion society has grown incredibly callous if we think so poorly of our own children, not to mention each other.

that book i linked to is called "non-violent communication" and one of its major concerns is communicating non-violently within the family. if non-violence isn't to be used in the most fundamental relationship that exists - mother to child - then how can we say we really believe in it?

a violent phrase is anything that is conditional. this is the very definition of manipulation. "if you don't do x, i will do y." that is violence in the most fundamental sense.

there is another way - instead of a violent demand you make a non-violent request.

few people have any practice with non-violent requests so, no doubt, it is a challenge to orient your brain around the principle and to implement it in real life. every piece of social conditioning we have tells us that requests are dangerous and that they make us vulnerable - every animal instinct wants us to make demands backed up by some sort of power.

but i think it's worth it.

that book i linked offers powerful answers to crucial social questions. how does one behave compassionately and non-violently in a violent world? how does one respect the free will of others while still creating boundaries?

[Xibizopt]

well yossarian if you are one thing it is determined!! you just don't give up. and i do admire your conviction to your words and your passion, all the power to you

i do agree with a lot that you said is true. i do agree with non violence and unconditional love.

i just don't think you can make blanket statements like "all teenagers should be treated like adults". if that is true then the opposite is true that all adults should be treated like teenagers. just like adults not all teenagers are non violent or sto. you can't solve everything with a little chat. did you solve your mother's behaviour towards you with a little chat?

it works both ways, you can't tell me that teenagers are adults but then have different rules for both. the adult has to sit there with an open heart and unconditional love for his/her teen regardless of their behaviour but yet the teen doesn't sit there with an open heart and unconditional love for the parent regardless of their behaviour.

adults get punished and go to jail if they do something that our society regards as illegal, it's why we have laws. not that i necessarily think the system for adults is perfect either , locking people up and throwing away the key doesn't always solve the problem it just hides it . (but that's a whole other post!!)

but teenagers should just be given a hug and a pep talk if they do the same thing? they can't be treated as adults in the fact that they can do whatever the heck they want, but then be treated as children when it comes to the consequences of their actions. they are one or the other.

if they are still treated as teens, lacking in some life skills and wisdom then they can be given a second chance and given opportunities to see how their behaviour has affected others.

we are all different and we all respond to different stimuli and we all have different values (even teenagers). i know some kids you could leave in a house with a pile of money , a pile of drugs, the car keys and their baby sister and they would leave the drugs, money and keys alone because they knew it's not theirs. there are other kids i know who would help themselves to everything and leave the baby sister at home. so basically all kids do not get treated the same.

"when that house was destroyed by the party, i felt sad because i don't want other people to have their homes ruined. would you please join me in offering to help these people fix up their house?" sometimes its just easier not to leave the teenager alone in the house or to stop the party before it gets out of control.

as this party forms in my house, i feel hurt because i don't want to feel like the condition and soundness of my home is being threatened. will you please end this party?" originally your idea was just to let the kid have the party.

whereas whatever damage that may be caused due to an out of control party is always going to be transient. on the cosmic scale, it's not a big deal. my husband decided that it would be a big deal but in what part of my answer did you assume that he went in and threatened punishment and violence? my husband is 5' 3". if he went in with that attitude he would have been answered in punishment and violence, but he also did not have time to basically go in and say to 150 people your above statement. if teenagers are so smart, then they should have looked around the house themselves and been able to figure out that it was a bad idea and had compassion and love for the homeowner.

are people really so cynical that they think if you open yourself up to a child - open yourself genuinely, explain your feelings, and then request (not demand) the child to help you, that the child will then turn up his nose and spurn you?

and that then if the child does spurn you and you remain compassionate, refuse to judge or blame, and instead just continue to express genuine feelings and make genuine compassionate requests, that he'll continue to spurn you and go do something dangerous? i am not cynical and i do try the same approach, but it does not work with everyone. did you try that approach with your mother?

and i do not mean to open old wounds here or belittle what happened and is still happening with your mother but this approach does not work with everyone. and when you are a parent of a child they are your responsibility and you can't just walk away from them like you can someone you don't like.


i truly like you do long for a time when compassion, love and respect for others is the norm. i do think there is another way. however i also do not think that suppressing all of ones emotions is the way to go. even anger does have it's place sometimes.

one of the other most important things in life is forgiveness.

i think yossarian that like the rest of us you are longing for a 4d world that is one hundred times more harmonious than this world. i am with you on that and can't wait for it to happen. i do try my best to treat others as i would like to be treated myself. i was taught that from a young age. the golden rule, the most important rule ever.

the best we can do is the best we can do. if we keep trying to improve ourselves that is really all we can do. as i said earlier, when i changed my behaviour, magically every else's behaviour changed as well.

megan

[Elissetecausa]

the only reason i keep talking is because i think you misunderstand me. i half-agree with everything you've been saying, but there is sort of a specific twist i'm trying to express. it's hardly a big deal, but since this is a philosophical website i guess i feel like if there is any place for me to elaborate, this is the place.

firstly, i'm speaking generally, not with reference to you specifically.

secondly, i truly think there are many different loving responses and that in the end a response can never be planned, only prepared for by practicing compassion. ultimately every response needs to be made in the moment. text cannot express the infinite subtleties of every specific situation. two situations may be described with identical text and yet be miles apart in what is "actually" happening and what is actually appropriate. to any given scenario i don't put any stock in the idea that there is "a right answer" which can be pre-planned, only that by exploring the scenarios we can possibly expand our thinking.

as far as the misunderstandings, i don't consider non-violence to be a solution to any problem. i don't particularly think problems are there to be solved. in my way of thinking, non-violence is a choice made without reference to solutions. non-violence itself is the reward. it is an end in itself, not a means to an end.

so this means that when one chooses to be non-violent one is necessarily accepting the consequences. one does not say, "i will be non-violent until it stops working," or "i will be non-violent if you be non-violent."

if that is how it is approached, then it's nothing more than another tactic of manipulation and control.

i'm not suggesting that we institute laws to this nature or something like that. i'm not laying out a vision of utopia. i'm not saying, "teens should behave like x, adults like y." i'm rather suggesting that one option, for whomever, is to behave like x. and note that i don't say, "everyone should be non-violent." i don't feel qualified to make such a statement.

rather, my first point is quite simply, "non-violence is an option available."

for most people i imagine my usefulness ends here and they will say, "ok, i opt-out."

but for those who are interested in "opting-in" there is a lot to explore and a lot to learn. there is a certain technique to it - society conditions us to be violent in the most insignificant and subtle ways. our language itself is a language of violence, a language of control and manipulation. learning to speak without violence is truly like learning to speak again. all of a sudden patterns of behavior that are so deeply ingrained in popular culture have a new light shed on them. one of these is definitely the stereotypical parent-child relationship, the kind of thing that dr. phil is always talking about.

dr. phil's approach is a total polar opposite of my approach. to me, dr. phil's approach is basically "how to successfully navigate modern human dominance hierarchies."

to me dominance hierarchies are both unnecessary and inherently violent. human hierarchies are really just highly sophisticated chimpanzee dominance hierarchies. the violence is still there it is just masked behind all kinds of perfume.

i've always been a bloodhound for this type of perfume, and it has always smelled like poisonous gas to me.

but that's just me. i'm doing fine in this world by refusing to co-operate with dominance hierarchies and turning them on their head using purely non-violent techniques. it's not pragmatic though - i'd certainly be richer and more powerful and be more popular and have more people love me if i "played the game".

so my advice is really only suited for those who decide to opt-out of "the game" and opt-in to "non-violence as a principle, not a means to an end."

so knowing this, i suppose you can get a better idea of how i approach the "problem" with my mother. these days, i don't consider it a problem. it just is another circumstance be accepted and transcended - another challenge to remain non-violent and compassionate in the face of.

i never have little talks with people with the goal of changing their behavior, to me this kind of goal is inherently manipulative. rather, i have talks with people trying to express my genuine situation, and then make requests which they are free to ignore, and in which i do not twist their arm at all.

to me, this process is a reward in itself.

[Xibizopt]

yossarian you took the (thoughts) words right out of my mouth!

firstly, i'm speaking generally, not with reference to you specifically i think i did take it all personally because obviously i do have some issues with myself and my parenting skills as well as with control. (otherwise why would i have started the thread?)

thanks for bringing this to my attention and i do thank you for your honest thoughts. you have clarified for me what i did misunderstand in your previous posts. i have never really thought about violence like that.

you have given my a lot to think about.

love,

megan