[Kk21pwa9]

i think we all know that hell, which is god judging our actions and punishing us to eternal life being scorched and burned in a pit of fire, is not real.

but could hell exist through karma? take an alcoholic for example. say that this guy, lifetime after lifetime, heavily used alcohol in order to cope with the enormous amounts of stress that it is to cope with a sick and unbalanced society. that what this guy set out to do was to be as helpful as possible by being "service to others" and be a positive, helpful force to get society back to being healthy and balanced. but, his dysfunctional upbringing and then the dysfunctional society drove him to self-medicate, very often, with alcohol. this alcohol abuse deeply hurt someone who is very close to this guy to the point that through a storm of pain and anger the relationship was brought to a sudden halt and things were never able to be rectified. the guy never felt like he could right, what was deemed by someone else to be wrongful actions, the wrongs that he now feels that he has committed. would this guy be doomed to repeat this particular scenario time and time and lifetime and lifetime again because or the laws of karma?

karma, to my knowledge, energetically binds you to other entities and situations. you are bound to repeat the same energetic circumstances again and again until you are able to bring back the emotional pendulum back to center. then,it is a law of the universe, that you are binded to this energetic entity in order to balance the disturbance that was created so that when everything is finally placid and calm again you are then free to move on.

could this person, who has hurt another person by coping or self-medicating with alcohol or whatever substance that is deemed unacceptable by our sick society, be doomed to constantly reincarnate over and over again in the same situation until he/she deals with the pain in an "appropriate" manner?

aren't you responsible for your own emotions and other people are responsible for the way they react and feel to certain situations? this person can not be responsible for other people's emotional upheavals all the time. take jesus for example, is jesus going to be held responsible, lifetime after lifetime, to come back here and balance all the crazy emotional disturbances he created? and jesus certainly did, more than any other man ever to live, create a huge emotional disturbance by leading his crusade of love. it was a path largely of positivity, but i am sure some people actually were negatively affected by his life. so is he doomed to constantly come back and spend a life here until he is able to bring the pendulum back to center?

i would love to hear everyone's opinion of this matter for it is wearing heavily on my mind.

my humble gratitude,
foo

[FoetAgerhot46]

is it my imagination or am i seeing increasingly redundant/painfully generic new threads? i'm ok about vents. people need to vent. but i'm tired of questions like what are angels? is there a hell? ....what is religion or karma? but i realize it's usually something the person stumbles upon that brings in a new perspective - hence needing to question the old.
i could be saying that when i come here...i kinda suspect dw's going to drop another bomb. some amazing finding : ))

anyway, life is what you... and the system make it. be an nlp'er; think what you want. i've spent most of my life wallowing in what i don't want. this morning i made a renewed effort in focusing on what i want. or what i think i want etc.
i will be grateful first and foremost.....then....to hell with present circumstances.
i'm going to take this to irresponsible/dissociative levels this time. if only to prove creating your own reality does'nt work!

amen.

[Mymnnarry]

whether we have done service in the name of our creator for others or whether we have been violent, drug abusing hedonists we all live and die in a state of grace. for because of free will we have the choice of being able to bask in the glory of the sunlight or to scurry around at night looking to cause mischief. after the silver cord that binds the spirit to the body for an incarnation breaks then we would what we call have to undergo a type of purgatory although probably not a punitive one that the church would like you to believe. this allows us to experience parts of life that need assessing without the emotional attachment because the emotional body doesn't come with us after death i.e from a neutral standpoint, so we can see what we could have done better, a type of healing if you like. this will allow us in future lifetimes to either broaden our horizons or narrow them, i.e getting the basics right first. apparently the rosicrucian brotherhood are taught to analyze the events of the day before they go to sleep thus shortening their stay in purgatory.

q'uo, the entity that carla is channeling says that we are bound by karma to keep coming back to the school of 3rd density simply because we haven't forgiven ourselves for the deeds or actions we may have caused harm against ourselves or others. that's why in the bible it says if you sin against the holy spirit then neither christ nor god can forgive you because you are the holy spirit and if you sin against someone you sin against yourself therefore you must forgive yourself and vow to live in service to others in the name of our creator.


you are the path and you are the destination

all the best, dan

[Ilaubuas]

yes, life can be hell at times. there, i said it and for me it was true in my own experience of experiencing a difficult heart melting experience such as alcoholism. i do believe our lessons (karma) are dealt with through our lifes, experiences, our relationships, our deep reflection of "know thy self".

i will tell you, that the words "unconditional love" are so very very true. it is the only salvation in these times of god's test of one another, i.e., our relationship with god and our relationships with one another.

webster: salvation - a saving or being saved; a person or thing that saves or rescures; the saving of the soul from sin and death, as, in christinity, by the the atonement of jesus.

i have had a personal experience, 8 years with my brother. i did everything from passing blame, try to support (hoping he would see the light), to trying to control another, to the big one, hard love, turning your back, which nearly ? us all. in my moments of digging deep for answers of self, i was shown the light on own own situation, truly:

it was all about loving someone else, unconditionally.... meaning, no conditions. but there was more that was shown, i saw my brother's own pain, his own suffering, the why's of trying so hard to get back his own love. he was trying so hard to be that loving person again, who he was when he entered life. he did not see it like that, but i saw it as clear as day. all of his actions, the drinking, the family fights, the disappointments, being jobless, homeless, was all related to trying to be again that loving person that he truly is but does not know how to get back to..

in his own guilt, shame, he lost his own self worth, his pride (ego), his trust of himself, and could not even see beyond an hour. he could not love himself. he lost his ability to trust, have faith and believe. nothing was natural, his own spark of light was out, he could not even think about loving another. his life became "conditional" and dependant on everything and he lost the only thing he has control of, is himself.

this was the hardest lesson for all involved. i am happy to say, much has changed. my brother is back on his feet., i truly truly, love him, unconditionally and see him for who he truly is, that divine spark of love and of god.

i see this spark of love in each person, each life here on earth. we are all first and formost, love, pure and simple love.

i tell him this every day, but not just words, i really mean it... i feel it deeply. and you know, i know he now feels the true, pure love i am giving him and he in return gives it back to me......and it is real, real, pure love from him. his trust is back, our trust is back, our faith is back and i believe in love, in god and all that is in front of us. i now have interest in his interest and don't judge, just be .

please read my other post on "be unconditional". i am feeling or experiencing the other side of love, the "can you be supportive, unconditionally". can you be a brother/sister unconditionally. this post is the flip side of giving and how we create fear through our actions, unknownly. i believe, our own part in this big plan on earth.

for those involved in this post, i send you my love. to all others experiencing those "dark" lessons, i send you my love. find for yourself, what the true meaning of "unconditional love" is and you will find your questions, answered. "know thy self"

[Wgnhqhlg]

foosnik,

heaven and hell are what a person makes of it. one can dwell in his/her sorrows and by doing so create their own personal hell. we are all responisible for our own feelings and actions/reactions to any situation that happens to us and in the end, we are our own judge & jury.

one 66

[RilmAlime67]

i think purgatory refers to psychological states of hopelessness and aimlessness, which can reinforce itself over time if not nipped in the bud. i could be wrong, but karma seems to be more related to issues not being dealt with but that need to be resulting from these "purgatorial states". there's no judgment, only that you'll move through whatever issue when you're ready...but sometimes, you'll never be ready if you don't stand up. it's up to you.
but sometimes it would take a highly charged sto figure to alter the fear-based dynamic we've internalized and projected on the world, because that bud is usually far too deep for most to see. because the nature of such an endeavor is immense, and the karmic paths of those effected even greater, such a figure would not be able to simply "run away". it would be contrary to karmic laws and the very essence of that entity.
now whether or not jesus will return in the flesh is a compelling question. most sources point towards a "no", that he can do far more work through interfacing with numerous people simultaneously via the higher-dimensions.
(there's another great 6d channeled source that touches on this...pm me if you're interested)
the spiritual implications of that, if you subscribe to it, is immense, because now the onus of responsibility is placed within your hands. not to "become jesus" or consider yourself some awesomely powerful, egoistic figure with white gloves, golden toilets and servants carrying bells and whistles. but on the contrary, to recognize how everyone has that potential within them to move beyond those concerns, to simply be yourself, be love, resonate with that and carry it forth in your actions...

17.20 questioner: how did this aggressive action against a playmate affect jesus in his spiritual growth? where did he go after his physical death?

ra: i am ra. the entity you call jesus was galvanized by this experience and began a lifetime of seeking and searching. this entity studied first day and night in its own religious constructs which you call judaism and was learned enough to be a rabbi, as you call teach/learners of this particular rhythm or distortion of understanding, at a very young age.

at the age of approximately thirteen and one-half of your years, this entity left the dwelling place of its earthly family, as you would call it, and walked into many other places seeking further information. this went on sporadically until the entity was approximately twenty-five, at which time it returned to its family dwelling, and learned and practiced the art of its earthly father.

when the entity had become able to integrate or synthesize all experiences, the entity began to speak to other-selves and teach/learn what it had felt during the preceding years to be of a worthwhile nature. the entity was absolved karmically of the destruction of an other-self when it was in the last portion of lifetime and spoke upon what you would call a cross saying, “father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” in forgiveness lies the stoppage of the wheel of action, or what you call karma. perhaps this hypothetical alcoholic man would be galvanized into seeking and soul-searching resulting from the destruction he has waged on himself and the impacts it's had on others (?), with that purgatorial state being breached through forgiveness and self-discipline.
[reference to drugs deleted by moderator]

[Ilaubuas]

seek and you will find your answers to your involvement.

karma, to my knowledge, energetically binds you to other entities and situations. you are bound to repeat the same energetic circumstances again and again until you are able to bring back the emotional pendulum back to center.

aren't you responsible for your own emotions and other people are responsible for the way they react and feel to certain situations? foo

each and every experience comes to us for a reason. to look at our own relationship, lesson, responsiblity in that experience. if you are open or when you are forced to become open to answers, they will come.

in my own experience, i left out, my brother is my twin. i search long and hard for my own involvement, what it was that i was to learn, my role, my own lesson of the experience, why i might have been born as his twin etc, etc. this prob. lead me to the e.c. material, because it deal with recarniation and karma, plus the wonderful spiritual enrichment and enlightment.

by becoming open, not looking at poor me anymore, i found truth in myself, my brother and all mankind that i would have never found in a book, reading or anyother way. i can clearly look at this experience and see what a gift it was.

if your dare to look, deep, it is worth many life times .

again, much love and rainbow light being sent ! rhonda

i will be there for you my friends.... call on me!

[Stoottnoiciek]

dear friends,

here's nonsense from the "church." not for children, but if you're an adult watch out...

how silly...

be well, be love.

david

http://www.metro.co.uk/home/article....id=1&ct=5&ct=5

pope: limbo does not exist
thursday, october 5, 2006 pope benedict xvi will tomorrow announce he is scrapping the centuries old roman catholic concept of limbo.

according to church teachings, limbo is home to the souls of children who die without being baptised.

it is a state between heaven and hell. but the pope will instead say that unbaptised children go to heaven.

the move follows a meeting at the vatican this week of 30 senior church figures who are part of the powerful international theological commission.

pope benedict has long opposed the idea of limbo despite it being part of catholic thought since the middle ages.

he revealed his views in 1984 when he was cardinal joseph ratzinger. 'it is linked to the cause of original sin,' he said then. 'but many babies die because they are victims.'

the new doctrine brings catholicism in line with islam, which also believes that all children go to heaven.

the move may help the pope repair relations with the muslim world.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news...ope-51549.html

there is a hell, says pope
by richard owen
tuesday march 27 2007

hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, the pope has said. the pontiff, who as cardinal joseph ratzinger was head of catholic doctrine, noted that "forgiveness of sins" for those who repent was a cornerstone of christian belief.

hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, the pope has said.

addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of rome, benedict xvi said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to "admit blame and promise to sin no more", they ran the risk of "eternal damnation - the inferno."

hell "really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more," he said.

the pope, who as cardinal joseph ratzinger was head of catholic doctrine, noted that "forgiveness of sins" for those who repent was a cornerstone of christian belief.

[arreskslarlig]

the antics of the papacy never cease to amaze me. they boxed themselves in badly when they invented papal infallibility. how can they backtrack on doctrine without falsifying prior popes?

i've always thought purgatory was the only good idea that catholics had. after all, christian damnation doctrine is the most dismal doctrine any religion has ever thought of. it needs mitigation, and without reincarnation, how is it to be accomplished. and i think there is a great seed of truth in it - people are equally unready for heaven as they are undeserving of eternal hell. they need a purification process.

of course, purgatory need not be that process. its just an idea to express certain spiritual necessities.

foosnik, you have funny ideas about how karma works. why assume a person would be an alcoholic life after life? progress may be a bit slow, but not necessarily as hopeless as all that.

the idea that hell might exist through karma has some merit, i think. for example, if i've been pretty bad, i could get reborn as a girl in afghanistan or saudi arabia.

you are not responsible for other people's emotional reactions, but you are responsible for what you put out. it's very simple.

[Accor$314]

dear foo and all,
in "general discussions/christ jesus thread" - been raving about smith's anthroposophical bible commentaries. of course there is something re-purgatory.nina

http://www.divinecosmos.com/forums/s...hlight=steiner
[moderator note: link to quotes is in #9 post of this thread]

smith gave:
"for approximately three days after death the etheric and astral bodies
and ego remain in the general presence of the physical body. by virtue
of the “veil” being removed, these three components are able to observe
a memory tableau of the life just lived in relation to the karmic purposes
for which the soul incarnated. as this period ends, the etheric body dissolves
back into the earth’s cosmic ether, and the soul and astral body enter
the astral world for a period of approximately one-third of the
duration of the life just ended. this is the time known in esoterica as kamaloca,the period of purification. it has a relationship to what in catholic
doctrine is called purgatory. it is the period the prophets refer to as
“the refiner’s fire.”32 " (p.83)

would suggest that you go back to p. 81 and start there for a fuller grasp:
"steiner has pointed out that in the evolution of the human soul
memory was perfect before the soul began its descent....but with the descent, memory (as well as perception in the spiritual world) gradually faded, compensated for on the other hand by an increasing intellect as the etheric and astral bodies drew within the physical body, especially in the brain. but in time, these higheretheric and astral bodies drew so completely within the physical body that no spiritual consciousness could exist, so that the mineralized physical body became “the veil of the temple”—the very thing that kept the human being from spiritual perception.31 no longer was clairvoyance a heritage of the human soul. it was this “veil” that was “rent” by the crucifixion of christ, though it can only be so for each soul as it reconnects in the process of returning on the upward portion of the parabola
toward a purely spiritual state."

[pavilionnotebook]

that's why in the bible it says if you sin against the holy spirit then neither christ nor god can forgive you because you are the holy spirit and if you sin against someone you sin against yourself therefore you must forgive yourself and vow to live in service to others in the name of our creator.

hi dan

i don't recall it saying in the bible that "you are the holy spirit". in fact, the question of the unpardonable sin, based on what the bible does say, has bothered me for a long time.

i had never thought about it in this way before. it makes perfect sense that this is the reason why god can't forgive you because you are the holy spirit and must forgive yourself.

thank you for that.

to foosnik - personally, i believe that we can only be responsible for our own actions and emotions, not how people react to us.

[Ilaubuas]

yes, agree, we have the responsiblity and abiltiy to control only ourselfs, truly. and what a gift that is !

personally, i believe that we can only be responsible for our own actions and emotions, not how people react to us.

how will you choose to share your gift ? when you approach the throne of grace, what will be your story ?

[Kk21pwa9]

everyone:

thank you everyone for your time and wonderful responses. you all have reminded me that forgiveness and unconditional love are most important. these two things are what frees you from this sort of karmic imbalance. i have read the law of one books but sometimes i forget the message.

rhonda:

i was deeply moved by your eloquent words about your twin brother. it really touched home. i appreciate you sharing your personal experience. i have to confess that this alcoholic man that i was speaking of is not hypothetical but it is my dear friend. he is nearly suicidal at the moment and whatever i say to him does not seem to sink in. this has really shaken me up. i am too already at my capacity for depression at the moment and if i lose him i will be devastated.

my friend has a deep and tender relationship with his wife and she is separating from him now. the ironic thing is that, similar to what you were saying about your twin, that he is the most sensitive, caring, unconditionally loving kind of person that i have ever met but his wife doesn't seem to see it. she sees him being selfish and cowardly and trampling on her emotions. both of them grew up in severely dysfunctional families in which the parents were alcoholic and abusive. she can't see why her husband would repeat this pattern and is now completely withholding any compassion, understanding and most importantly she has withdrawn her love.

one small side not i would like to add is that one old saying has always stuck with me which is that, and don't quote me on this because i can't remember exactly how it goes, you can measure a man's greatness by how much suffering he can endure. if this is true we should all be master ninjas of greatness.

in his own guilt, shame, he lost his own self worth, his pride (ego), his trust of himself, and could not even see beyond an hour. he could not love himself. he lost his ability to trust, have faith and believe. nothing was natural, his own spark of light was out, he could not even think about loving another. his life became "conditional" and dependant on everything and he lost the only thing he has control of, is himself.

this was the hardest lesson for all involved. i am happy to say, much has changed. my brother is back on his feet., i truly truly, love him, unconditionally and see him for who he truly is, that divine spark of love and of god. this part of what you said really struck home the most and i really appreciate your time and your energy for writing it. it really struck home.

[Ilaubuas]

i really feel for you and your dear friend. our family' own situation was at this level and it is such a hard hard road to be on and it hurts so deeply when all you want to do, is rescue everyone and pull them back out of the hole their hearts are in. it sounds like many hearts are feeling deep pain and fear is growing.

first, i have learned, as much sense as you are saying and making, the other person just can not hear it. it maybe his inability to see real love being said through your words or actions, but to him, it may feel false. he does not trust himself nor can he trust anyone close at this time. he is prob. feeling very judged, guilty and that no one understands what he feels or cares to understand, the false image, yet, it is not. he is judging himself so much, he can not even think of trust or loving himself.

from st. germain
your heart was in development and had wing-like fixtures, appendages upon either side, very much like a flying heart. from this development the fingers upon your arms and your hands, as it were. indeed, your arms and hands grew from your heart. this is what is meant by embracing, allowing the extention to bring forth re-countence with your soul through your heart. hugging is when you embrace... allowing the union of your embryonic understanding yet again.

perhaps, your friend can only feel at this time from you and other love ones that are close, give or send him a big hug from your heart ! this may sound silly to some, but it is a real act, not only for him, but for yourself.

affirm: help my friend find peace in his heart ---- to be and to be healed.

i am assuming you guys have tried to get him help. many states offer free treatment centers. check with your local aa groups. but again, it is up to this person to decide, take the 1st step and then follow through. it is scary and that 1st step is so hard, but when he is ready, he will find peace with this choice. your support, your prayers (thoughts) will go a long way, along with the hugs (if he will allow it)


the wife sounds like she is afraid and does not want to watch him die or kill himself. she in her own way is protecting her own heart and is at a lost as to how to help. i feel, deep down, she loves this man so much, but is hurts her by what has happen and now wathcing him slowly kill himself. she needs the support and understanding too, as you do.

you can only control yourself, but you have the choice to support and give of self as you can. this is so hard, i truly know how hard and painful beyond words.

i love you for being the person you are and being brave when you don't know the answers too. have faith, even when you don't seem to see it, believe that all is were it is suppose to be and keep your hope for self and your friends and family.

i will keep you in my prayers.. prayers are very very powerful, as you know, and sometimes this is were faith, hope and belief is all you can control in your life .....

peace in your heart, love in your life, hope for a times ahead. much love and rays of pink and rainbow light ! rhonda

[Kk21pwa9]

@ rhonda:

first, i have learned, as much sense as you are saying and making, the other person just can not hear it. it maybe his inability to see real love being said through your words or actions, but to him, it may feel false. he does not trust himself nor can he trust anyone close at this time. he is prob. feeling very judged, guilty and that no one understands what he feels or cares to understand, the false image, yet, it is not. he is judging himself so much, he can not even think of trust or loving himself. this is so true. he appreciates my trying to show him that he is loved but he still doesn't really believe it. it just seems so crazy to me because i look up to this guy so much. he is such the strong, brave, warrior type and he is crumbling to pieces.

[channelled material removed]

i am assuming you guys have tried to get him help. many states offer free treatment centers. check with your local aa groups. but again, it is up to this person to decide, take the 1st step and then follow through. it is scary and that 1st step is so hard, but when he is ready, he will find peace with this choice. your support, your prayers (thoughts) will go a long way, along with the hugs (if he will allow it) he refuses. he says that he doesn't want to be a burden and he doesn't trust traditional medicine/doctors anyway.

the wife sounds like she is afraid and does not want to watch him die or kill himself. she in her own way is protecting her own heart and is at a lost as to how to help. i feel, deep down, she loves this man so much, but is hurts her by what has happen and now wathcing him slowly kill himself. she needs the support and understanding too, as you do. i think you are right on the money about this. and he loves her deeply as well. her great fear is alcohol abuse and his great fear is the fear of withdraw of love and abandonment. the two fears are feeding off each other like a snowball effect. when he runs into a problem he drinks. then she withdraws her love from him because he has broken her rules which makes him drink more and finally the relationship has soured. he does understand all too well, i think, the pain that she is in. he never meant to hurt her and it has driven him to the point of oblivion. i cannot describe to you the painful look in his eyes. this is not the look of someone who does not understand.

i love you for being the person you are and being brave when you don't know the answers too. have faith, even when you don't seem to see it, believe that all is were it is suppose to be and keep your hope for self and your friends and family. i deeply appreciate this and it sounds really sincere. i just really feel to my core what my buddy is going through. i have been on suicide watch before myself. i keep telling him that he will make it and he has to hold on. he has to hold on. this too shall pass and you will come out of this victorious. i need my buddy here in my life.

i remember the way that people talked with me when i was in my crisis. they listened and gently kept nudging me back in a positive direction when i started to spiral downwards in my grief. i think he is going to be ok because he has begun to talk with me and his mother. i don't think he will pull the plug and he will come out of this thing the champion that i know he is.

[Ilaubuas]

foosnik, you sound positive and stronger. wonderful -- keep the trust of yourself.

i will tell you a little about the treatment center here, what i learned from my brother, it was not alot of doctors and medicine, but more "searching for reason" and discussing issues

first 3-5 days, detox.., they give you pills to ease the withdrawal and feeling of sickness plus i think an exam

next 30 days is lots of good food, a routine, but lots of classes.... to understand what this disease is and what it does to your mind, body and soul. a way to allow him to see what's going on.... he gets one on one coaching from previous people that have gone through this . much talks, to allow him to talk about his issues related to this. (private stuff)

it is also very spiritual. much is introduced and discussed ....... my brother was reading the bible more and more when he got out. he felt alive and free.... he could forgive himself too and was much stronger to face life....

its not all fun and games, it is work... i think 10-12 structured hrs a day or more..... but time to reflect on what going on that causing him to withdraw from life.

for my brother, it took a few years to get him to consider, he is also very strong and caring, but once he hit rock bottom, he, himself, needed help and he knew it. your friend will know, you will know.... when or if this will work for him...... even the aa meetings are good..... because they don't usually allow non-aa people in... so that the members can talk freely and openingly. they have also been were your friend is and can help him understand what he is going through on a different level.

anyway., just a little more to know....

its snowing here in texas, spirit has blanketed the area and it is beautiful.

keep shining your bright light, it sounds like it is working. much love, r

[Kk21pwa9]

i am beginning to feel a little bit better. your posts have been very helpful to me.

thanks for your time and wisdom,
foo