[ligaliaCods]

is 'evil' the effect from the cause of god manifesting, hence, separating. is this the original sin?

there was negative before the fall of eve. there had to of been negative during the time of all the creation before man. if there wasnt evil before the fall of man, then how could there of been the 'splitting of the vessels' or the 'realm' of chaos before man was on the earth. the angels fell before man fell. the temptation has always been it seems. temptations are not sins so to say, but experiences. its the experience of choice of making careless decisions or productive decisions.

in my opinion, there is no hell, and if there is, your living it. evil was born when god manifested. god is duality, untill the time when all life force reunites with his/her light.

ive done alot of reading on sophia. very interesting stuff. ive always felt that the female contains a dark history as well as divine. some say sophia was the one who was attracted to the beauty of the cosmos and turned away from the divine to observe closer the realm of our cosmos. being she turned away wanting to create something in her likeness as well as she was made in gods likeness she became stuck in this realm. some say she is the organic earth itself, and she is waiting the day of returning to the one as well. so mabey our ascension isnt just for our own graduation, but others as well.

so, again, does evil 'negativity' originate from the very beginning of creation-or do some think it purely started with the fall of angles or man?

[foonlesse]

i only like to make one comment,
angels don't fall.

regards detlef

[t78VPkdO]

i'm sorry but i'm not really understanding what you're asking within the context of david's work and the loo.

to me the terms evil, original sin, fall of man or of angels and the idea of hell have very little meaning from a loo prespective.

are you trying to interpret biblical ideas in terms of where their source is and how they might relate to the loo?

[ligaliaCods]

detlef,

mabey 'fall' isnt the best choice for a word here. mabey its all that falls (in our human words that its) is really all that seperates from the divine source to decend away from our origin. do you beleive in angles detlef? i do and feel there is not only a great seperation going on in the humans but a great seperation in the higher realms of lets say 'heaven' or 'heavens'. these might not be the perfect words to use when talking about these things, but really, we are just humans trying to use human language for discribing something that happened when mabey there was no language at all(verbally meaning)-and if the angels are experiencing something (an effect) from a 'seperation' then could it be our worlds graduation or progress could also effect the other realms? i think we are stuck in this world right now. we are stuck to this bodily form and earths sol is stuck as well. could there be other 'cosmic or heavenly' beings that are stuck here too waiting? and could our boundries and limits in this materiel world all be the effect from the cause of manifestation-seperation-of the one true divine energy? and are angles and us (and mabey some other beings as well) on the path of experiences to heal this seperation?
i would love opinions and thoughts on this....

peace to all,
lynette

[Anakattawl]

i am reminded of what several had said, either in their own words or paraphrased from the law of one...

instead of thinking positive vs. negative, i tend to think of polarity and that all paths eventually lead back to the source. thats why we don't need to get "wrapped up" with trying to "beat" negative groups; simply don't "feed them through fear" and shower them with love.

detlef, if i may, why do you say "angels don't fall"? the "concept" of "angelic human race" resonates with me, and not to sound too lofty, i like to think many of us are "angels of love". in fact, when surrounded by my "group of friends" (we ritually get together on thursday nights/sundays), i like to visualize "my wings spreading".

sounds corny as i write this, but it has brought me comfort... :d

art

[Anakattawl]

oops! forgot to say one last thing...

i think angels can fall, if they choose to.

again, i'd like to expand this discussion so i can further incorporate other perceptions and refine my own.

thanks!

art

[Kryfamid]

the way i have read when god created men and women he created them with a potential to become divine, some angels grew jealous of this and refused to acknowledge man as a superior being, thus becoming their enemy and god enemies as well.
just another opinion.



this statue in parque del buen retiro, madrid, spain, is probably the only public statue in the world dedicated to the devil. it depicts lucifer, the fallen angel who was cast out of heaven to become satan.
guess what the altitude above the sea level is; 666 meters.

[ligaliaCods]

hi butterfriends,

i do feel that our history (including ancient writings and symbols) should be compared to any work that is researching anything to do with science and faith. so in a way, yes i am trying to incorporate some things to the dw research and discussions. this isnt a bad thing, i follow up on things that reside with me. sometimes i might have to use many different sources before one idea can feel comfortable. i enjoy learning and seeking in many different areas.

dont all perspectives of faith come from a base foundation of separation? so i do feel that we all must take things that feel right to our personal selves and then relate it to the love and light for our experience. i think learning about ourselves and our past selves does relate to spiritual growth and grounding of the soul.

we are all here because we feel a connection with dw research. as well, we are all here to learn from eachother and share things with eachother.

i guess i was trying to make a point out of my question. my point being that the original sin was not with humans, nor angels ect...it was with separation of the loo, god, divine (which ever you prefer ) that negative (evil) was born. i posed this in a question to get others opinions on this.

art-the idea of the 'angelic race' resonates with me too

[Ruiceara]

is 'evil' the effect from the cause of god manifesting, hence, separating. is this the original sin?

there was negative before the fall of eve.

-quote cut to save space.
do you believe that god put adam & eve here and they were they the first two humans?
or am i not reading this right?

[Anakattawl]

i had to search through my posts, but this was something i wrote in the middle of last year...

i have also "formed" a better picture of my "purpose" and "role" are these past few days. simply put, a "creed" would be,

"i am light. i am an angel of love" (inner work)

"spread the light. spread the love" (outer work)

these are pretty broad terms, but these words spoke to me especially in the 1st person. i do believe we are spiritual beings having a physical experience... i think the issue here is the limitation of written language. i would tend to think some "hold on" to words like "angel" in different ways than others. -sigh- i look forward to the days where we can communicate more effectively.

art

[Olphander]

i think there is too much emphasis on the 'fall of man', from what did we fall? what is sin? is separation from god even possible?

as i have said before, other than the direct realization that 'i am', ie that you are a direct and whole aspect of god, all that is, everything, etc, it is a distortion of the truth. if god split himself in two, turned and slapped himself in the face, rejoined himself, what sin was committed? it would be nothing more than the experience!

there is no right or wrong, no good nor evil, only polarities to the expressions of god. god created, or split himself (and i'm using 'god' here only as a one word description for all that is, as god is so much more than the world suggest) up in order to create the possibilities of existence. i remember reading the loo study guide. they specifically state that this part of the universe was designed with the vale of forgetfulness in place because in other areas of the universe where it wasn't in place, spiritual growth was stagnating. they also mentioned that some areas of the universe where completely neutral in their polarization, ie service to self and service to others had equal potential, there are also the federation and the rest working to protect us from any undue influence. i've theorized that the only way to create polarity is through karma. in our universe, the polarity is leaning towards service to others.

the 'fall of man' speaks to our sense of loss at forgetting of our connection to the whole. that innate sense of loss lead us to feel as though we had missed the mark some how. over the centuries this evolved into ideas of good and bad, sin and good works. all though out the books on seth, ra and the rest, they always maintain one thing you are perfect! not bad, not wrong, not in any way fallen or wicked or any of those distortions of the truth. the truth is you are perfect as you are, even in your perceived imperfection. yes, we have things to work on, but it wouldn't be much of a life, or a spiritual path if the distortion did not allow us to perceive this need to be on a path towards some destination. forgetting our connection allows us to make the mistakes, realize the mistake, work on the mistake and thus grow spiritually. and on top of that, every one agrees we decided to come here. we are not here for punishment, or because we lack anything, we come here so that we can grow, expand our experiences and gain from those experiences.

one must be careful with biblical interpretations of the truth. the information is distorted in many many ways, and yet it has a plethora of information to be had on personal growth. i think david has mentioned several times that the god in the old testament was a being who wished to help originally, but in being worshiped as a seperate god, he began to be distorted towards a negative path. in that, we find the distortions of 'i am a jealous god' and the sacrifices and ideas of sin and failure. the falling of the angels could be a historical account of any higher density beings who for whatever reason turned from service to others to service to self, though i haven't heard anything about that particular about that part of the biblical account. so don't put validation in everything you read, rather take what resonates with you and leave the rest. specifically don't feed into the fear by taking stock in stories of negative entities and evil plots but rather have compassion for those of the service to self path and faith that our path is set and we will soon be in a more harmonious density.

[lorrieholdridge]

litllady, i know what you mean.

the same questions have been on my mind too!

leaving religion out of this for a moment (i don't view religion as reliable as i feel it has definitely been corrupted for the purpose of control).......

i feel that in a sense, we are all "fallen angels"......from my perspective of things.

until i re-gain my full, infinite memory, i can never claim to have all the answers, i can just say what i have felt and experienced while here.

i'm not sure about god being duality.

however, the following line resonates with me, even though i don't necessarily agree with all the authors views now, as some may have heard this before. these words, however, resonate with me:
"infinite love is the only truth, everything, everything else is illusion".

does this mean that everything else is unreal?
no. imo, this means that everything else, simply originates from separation.....it is our creation.

there are no words to express what "infinite love" really is.
only the heart, the soul can understand, can know.


i often worry about finding the answers, about understanding why we are really here and what it is we are trying to attain.
i'm not going to worry anymore- just to concentrate on love is enough, i know this much.
i don't think we can ever really know anything much more while here in the 3-d, try though we may- that's natural.

"wisdom is knowing how little we know".


love.

[Gabbavnf]

dear friends,

first john paul says this...

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm

heaven, hell and purgatory
pope john paul ii

in three controversial wednesday audiences, pope john paul ii pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. this language of place is, according to the pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. in this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the church in her theology and saying what st. thomas aquinas said long before him.

"incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [st. thomas aquinas, summa theologiae, supplement, q69, a1, reply 1]

and then benedict says this nonsense...

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/0701686.htm

any wonder why so many are confused...?

divine love = unconditional love...

it is and will always be...

love is love...

love is not judgemental...

and that, my friends is what god is...

believe what you will though...

be well, be love.

david

god's love is great, but hell 'exists and is eternal,' pope says

by john thavis
catholic news service

rome (cns) -- god's mercy and love are great, but those who reject him should know that hell "exists and is eternal," pope benedict xvi said.

the pope made the comments during a visit march 25 to a rome parish that serves a predominantly immigrant population, including the city's Unknownino community.

in a sermon, the pope focused on what has become a running theme of his pontificate: the importance of divine love.

"only god's love can change from within the existence of the person and, consequently, the existence of every society, because only his infinite love liberates from sin, the root of every evil," the pope said.

that same love is reflected in the sacrifice of christ, who came with the concrete goal of saving souls, he said.

"christ came to tell us that he desires all of us in heaven and that hell, which isn't spoken about much in our time, exists and is eternal for those who close their hearts to his love," the pope said.

[lorrieholdridge]

divine love = unconditional love...

it is and will always be...

love is love...

love is not judgemental...

[t78VPkdO]

hi litllady
sorry if my original question sounded a bit harsh - i did not intend it so, but i was genuinely struggling to understand your first question

i guess i see the duality of the 3d experience to be sto / sts, and the good / evil concept genuinely i just don't 'get'.

my feeling is that a lot of the historical terms, such as original sin, are loaded with fear-based ideas, and, to me, ideas or concepts that are based in fear are not something i want to go near.

what is 'sin' after all - from a sto / sts idea the concept of something being sinful also has no meaning, imho, every experience has value, and both the sto and sts paths are valid, it's simply that everyone (?) who resonates with the loo and david's work is most likely on a sto path.

anyway, much rambling, but yes i agree with you, i think much anxiety stems from a feeling of separation, and we feel that separation as an 'loss' in some respects because we are so spiritually acustomed to a more direct connection with the divine.

and also, yes i agree it is very interesting to research and compare historical / religious / spiritual concepts and ideas - just the language you used in your first question bamboozled me because to me those words / concepts make little sense to me.

[arreskslarlig]

there is no right or wrong, no good nor evil, only polarities to the expressions of god.

what is 'sin' after all - from a sto / sts idea the concept of something being sinful also has no meaning, imho, every experience has value, and both the sto and sts paths are valid, it's simply that everyone (?) who resonates with the loo and david's work is most likely on a sto path.

seems to me these are overstatements of the case. there is a reason that the positive and negative polarities join up at 6th density. the negative path doesn't really work. the problem with the service to self path is that it relies on deception and coercion of other beings.

i have great respect for the path of evil, if only because i see its value to us wimps who get a taste of it and as soon as possible run scurrying into 4d positive.

i find the book of genesis fascinating because i think that often if you read between the lines you'll see the opposite to the obvious teaching is being told subtly. the path of the knowledge of good and evil is the forge that makes us real beings. until we have a real, tried in the fire character of our very own, what are we? we could not call ourselves 'good'.

i'm sure we'll find that we would not trade a thing. and i can only suppose that those hardy, strong souls who go down the path of evil to its bitter end will come back all the more amazing for it. what a reconciliation that will be!

nonetheless that does not make evil okay, and to persist in it necessarily means a certain amount of self-deception and internal splitting, because it requires a lack of awarenss of the full reality of another's being. and our beingness is our fundamental attribute, after all. so its a real blindness.

surely you've noticed that evil tends to be destructive of life. life is the main attribute of god so far as i can tell. i don't necessarily mean life as in a biological body, but a more subtle energy that is the life/love force of the universe. it's why we have life and existence. so there is a big delusion here, to fight against one's own life source.

[t78VPkdO]

hi onething
yes, i am always guilty of over-simplifying things - that's just how i process, i try and boil things down to the fundementals.

you call the sts path the path of evil - i just find the word 'evil' culturally loaded, i personally wouldn't use it to describe the sts path. but then again i probably wouldn't use that term to describe anything because to me, personally, that word implies some sort of value judgement on another person's actions or motives.

i see the sts path as being the path of self-service and control / enslavement of others for the entity's personal benefit. therefore, to someone on that path they may veiw the ending of another person's incarnation as being inconsequential if it benefits them. is that act evil? or is it simply self-serving to an extreme - their intention isn't to cause harm, damage or other motivations you might think of as evil etc, their intention is to benefit themselves in some form of material, physical or spiritual self gratification.

but yes you're right ulitmately the sts path is unsustainable

[ligaliaCods]

hello everyone!

kellynuts asked in a earlier post if i thought god made adam and eve the first humans. i really dont know what i think about that exactly. i dont think we were the direct creation from god 'the divine'. i think we were like a sub creation that was the effect of a cause from higher realms of 'beings' that were the more direct creation from the divine. the higher 'beings' being a results of the original chaos and us being a result from their chaos. its so hard to explain what i think in the language we use. i see everything trickling down from a one source and each trickle after a certain point contained chaos from the original separation.

back to the word 'evil'...my point being is that what i consider to be the base of 'evil' is not what most see it as today. most see it as a way to describe how bad things came to this world through satan or the fall of angles. but i see it as a source of the effect from the cause of separation.
the reason ive been pondering about the 'origin' of evil (or bad things) is because of the confusion in many old text that humans kept feeling a need to explain why bad things were here with us in this world. i think the serpent and the tree of knowledge are metaphors saying that good and bad existed before the creation of humans. it bothers me that so many relate the origin of evil to eve eating an apple from a tree she was forbidden from.

i dont think we are supposed to ignore the fact that good and bad or not a result of the actions of one human. i think we should try to see the purpose in the old writings of the forever confusion that us humans have by trying to understand why is there bad experiences as well as good experiences. yes, we know both positive and negative exist. but why?? the reason in my thoughts is simply gods way of letting us know we are here because of something that happened in the chaos that resulted our existence. gosh, am i making any sense here

ones understanding may not be anothers understanding, but i still feel its important to share our experiences.

someone stated that i use the words 'i feel' when i should be bold and use the words 'i think'. again, ones way may not be anothers. to me, when i use the words 'i feel' im actually being more bold then to say what 'i think'. to me using the words 'i fell' is basing something on a deep intuition. to me it is bolder to base something on a intuition rather then what the mind has figured out. but for others, its the opposite. i am a person of intuition, so what i 'feel' is more powerful to me then what i 'think'. just my personal 'feelings' when i say 'i feel' it more or less means that ive come to a answer that not only i think is right, but my soul and higher self has shown agreement to my thoughts.

peace to all,
lynette

[foonlesse]

[quote=litllady;27814]detlef,

do you beleive in angles detlef? i do and feel there is not only a great seperation going on in the humans but a great seperation in the higher realms of lets say 'heaven' or 'heavens'.


dear lynette,
i would have to say yes.
i understand myself as an angelic wanderer. from this point of understanding i can say, what ever angelic entities or beings do is in service to the all, in particular to all beings on their journey from source and back.
with this they will do anything that will progress and bring forward movement to those they serve.
if this means to adjust their vibration to a lower level, or even plot intrigue within a game board to get energies moving that are stuck, so be it.
is that falling ? not in my understanding.
if someone is hurt laying in the cellar and need help, and i go down into the cellar, to assist, am i falling?
i belief, we often try to use old paradigm concepts and their wording and try to fit them within a new paradigm.
we slowly move out of a consciousness where we needed a superior being that created us and directed us, into a consciousness where we understand our self as equal to all that is. (if we follow the path of service to others)
heaven and hell are finite concepts in a infinite universe/s.
the ceiling will brake soon.
our choice will be, to see the infinity of all that is, or move into a new room with a little higher ceiling.

regards detlef

[arreskslarlig]

hello butterfriends,

you call the sts path the path of evil - i just find the word 'evil' culturally loaded, i personally wouldn't use it to describe the sts path. but then again i probably wouldn't use that term to describe anything because to me, personally, that word implies some sort of value judgement on another person's actions or motives.

of course it is a value judgment. i know there is a politically correct idea out there somewhere that making value judgment is bad form (and isn't that a value judgment?) but i think there is a misunderstanding. we could not function without value judgments. if there is to be a harvest, it is based on a kind of value judgment, even if it is an impersonal process. what does the word value mean? value means a property. or it means we like something more or less. for example, i prefer kindness to being stretched on the rack.


i see the sts path as being the path of self-service and control / enslavement of others for the entity's personal benefit.

yes, that is how i would define evil. evil is the use of deliberate deception and the use of force against others. in the end evil is not real, or it is real, but not really, really real. it lacks fundamental existence and that is why it feeds off the good.

i have seen, by the grace of god, that all beings are equally pure and perfect. the evil will fall away and only purity will remain. to call actions evil is not to condemn the entity. the entity is pure, the actions are evil.


therefore, to someone on that path they may view the ending of another person's incarnation as being inconsequential if it benefits them. is that act evil? or is it simply self-serving to an extreme - their intention isn't to cause harm, damage or other motivations you might think of as evil etc, their intention is to benefit themselves in some form of material, physical or spiritual self gratification.

you are sure that all evil beings, even very wise ones of 5th density - the wisdom density - are about as conscious of what they are doing as a house cat killing a bird? i beg to remind you of those who enjoy performing torture, of which there are many examples. what of those who feel gleeful as an innocent victim falls for their trap?

but i do agree to the extent that there is always an aspect of innocence to evil acts - that is why, for example, jesus said, "forgive them, father, for they know not what they do."

this is why i find 4th and 5th density evil puzzling- i don't know how they keep justifying it, and not learning from their own suffering.