[Sironimoll]

Hello.

I wondered how many people have a similar problem.

I usually have a hard time with visual recall. It's not very visual at all. Pictures seem to be hidden behind a black screen, and only the tiniest hint of them seems to be "visible". Like a darkened reflection of the picture I am trying to remember, everything transposed on blackness.

Same about hypnagogics. I get some, but they seem to have the same reduced quality when they happen.

I don't seem to have any problems with dreams, which are vivid.

Funny thing is - I tried an exercise called "HumanPlus: Recall" today and tried to recall a visual information. It seemed to be blocked out - felt like a block behind my face, more like the upper portion. Yes, I know about the third eye, and it could be its "support structures", but I'm not sure, because I have on the other hand good successes with swiveling my third eye and focussing it to remove blocks. I just don't "see" much.

Back when I started energy work and had problems doing NEW for tracing and sponging, a visualisation popped into my mind: an anatomic map, that I traced with a "laser pointer". I also could do "Living Body Map" from Monroe's Gateway. But both of these were rather black, too, IIRC. In my early Monroe experiments I guess I had an OBE, but it was all pitch-black, so it might have been an inner projection... I also remember at least an OBE that seemed to have been without sight, but again: Dreams seem to be perfectly vivid and visual.

Any ideas? Has anybody experienced the same?

Oliver

[zlopikanikanza]

I find Hypnagogic Imarery very difficult to remember as well. It's not like remembering regular dreams at all. If it's something I want to record, I keep repeating to myself mentally everything that I've seen previously, then wake myself up once it becomes too much to remember.

Then back to bed to try again. It gets annoying after having to get up three times or so. But I I don't write them down right away, there is nothing left of them by morning.

[Sironimoll]

Hello, Cusp.

Why remember? I find it difficult to experience/perceive them while they happen, remembering is not so much a problem I guess.

Do you slip to sleep from the hypnagogics or do you try to prolong the state or even wake up?

Oliver

[Dyerryjex]

This may or may not answer your questions- I have no problem seeing my hypnagogics, and it depends on how my 'mojo' is, I may be able to read what is presented in an astral book, other times no. I have noticed that to make the state last longer I try to induce trance before I'm completly 'out', by listening to the ear hiss, and if I'm alone in the house I'll sit with a pad and pen and when I hear something distinct I'll write it down, which wakes me up and then I try to go 'in' again.
What does this have to do with visuals? I find that in my case, trying to stay in the state where I hear auditory hallucinations puts my brain in the right 'frequency' for seeing hypnagogics in their more 'relaxed' and 'accessible' version.
When I do traditional type of meditation, it's very easy to go into the hypno state and quickly go into sleep- so if I 'tune into' my earhiss I'll reach the state quicker, giving me the opportunity to go into it with more lucidity and staying in it longer.
So in short, I use my strongest ability (the ability to discern discreet sound from noise) to take me to the visual stuff, and to notice it, which IMO is the hardest part.
I have discerned two levels of visual hallucinations- the really small, snapshot-ty type that goes by so fast you can even miss you had it, and then the slower type that fills your vision and you can explore a little longer and can dive in if you're so inclined. It appears to me you're losing consciousness from one point to the other.
Of course, what I'm talking about takes some time and peace to do.

[Sironimoll]

This does not seem to be related as I *never* get clear visuals except in full dreamstate. I have been in auditory hallucination mode before - if you mean astral noise that is. I did not have better vision then necessarily, none that I can remember at least.

What I want to change is not necessarily a better trance, I want a better visual recall or mind's eye vision, know what I mean? Not visualisation either, just the ability to see a picture in my mind when I close my eyes.

Oliver

[Dyerryjex]

Well, in that case I suggest a simple exercise I learned way back when I was in martial arts, we did the following.
Sit in meditation for a few minutes, and visualize a blob in front of your eyes. Once you have the blob and can see it, assign it a color. Then stare at the blob until it changes color to the one you told it to be. Then continue changing colors.
This is extremely hard for some people and easier for others, and some people have trouble with some colors. I find it easy partly because I've been doing it for years, so I think this may help.
Try it and see how it works for you.

[Sironimoll]

That sounds like a good exercise, thank you.

Are hypnagogics always pictures, or do they vary? Colored blobs for example? Are colored blobs a variety of hypnogogics that can be enhanced or does this mean you are not "deep enough" in trance?

Oliver

[Dyerryjex]

I'm not sure. When I do the blob exercise I'm looking to 'see' the color, not imagine it, yet at the time I'm completely conscious. So I don't think it's considered a hypnagogic hallucination, more like a selectively controlled phosphene- but I'm really not sure.

[Sironimoll]

No, CF, I meant that I get random floating blobs at a certain level of trance and before going to sleep. Is that already hypnagogics, what do you think?

Thanks,
Oliver

I'm not sure. I have seen phasers describe them as hypnagogics, because they can be manipulated, but I don't know.

[Dapnoinaacale]

Hello. I wondered how many people have a similar problem.

You may want to check out HERE where I describe exactly this situation & got some input.

[Sironimoll]

Yeah, JMan, but nothing seemed very helpful, did it?

I know I can see *something*, but it the opposite of pale - overlayed by dark, like behind a black glass screen. Sometimes at least. Nothing seems to relate to that.

I can almost see it is there, but it is elusive and "not quite there"... Do you get me? Like somebody tuned down the brightness nearly completely...

Oliver

[Dyerryjex]

Just humor me and do the blob exercise even if you don't think it's going to give you results, will ya?

[Sironimoll]

Just humor me and do the blob exercise even if you don't think it's going to give you results, will ya?

Did I ever say I won't?

Oliver

[Dyerryjex]

Ok, just making sure.

[Sironimoll]

Yes, ma'am!

Oliver

[Dyerryjex]

That's much better.

[zlopikanikanza]

Yeah, JMan, but nothing seemed very helpful, did it?

I know I can see *something*, but it the opposite of pale - overlayed by dark, like behind a black glass screen. Sometimes at least. Nothing seems to relate to that.

I can almost see it is there, but it is elusive and "not quite there"... Do you get me? Like somebody tuned down the brightness nearly completely...

Oliver

I don't think that's quite hypnogogics. Sounds to me like the stuff I see when I'm trying to force HI, the kind of insubstantial shapes I try to mould into an image.

The hypnagogic state may not be visual for all people. It's not uncommon to just hear voices, or even to just feel a "presence".

For me they happen quite randomly, and are never the image I was focusing on. I had one two nights ago where I was working on concepts for a game I was designing. Lasted for two hours! Was great laying down "code" and without worrying about typing mistakes.

I figure HI ends and dreaming begins when you have a dream body instead of just being an observer. Which is not so hard to do because you can think normally during HI. I've been able to shake loose a dream body, and go right into lucidity.

I need to meditate more. I've found it's easier to reach the hypnagogic state when I do before bed, but I'm just so lazy!

[Immarsecice]

Hypnogogics tend to be localized, very "atomic" -- i.e. a phosphene (a blob of light) will tend to get interpreted into a picture and sounds will get transformed through your associative memory (a blob resembling an object will be replaced by that object, or a nearest-neighbor match based on what you were doing in the few hours prior to going to sleep; random background noises will be triggered by small ambient noises, especially in heavier trance where your heartbeat can become a loud chant)

After a certain treshold, it's not mere hallucinations anymore, you get panoramic landscapes and the like... I'm not sure if the "dream body" is created at that point... Maybe it's yet another stable phase we can enter, in between hypnogogics and actual dreams? like a "visions" phase?

[EDIT] The reason I make this distinction is because I can't seem to control hypnogogics at all, they're the closest thing to random... Or at least, trying to make something appear will very often make something related but different come up... In the "visions phase" though, I can create pretty much anything with thought, that's how I used to "choose my dreams" for a while... [/EDIT]

Oliver, have you ever tried a technique where you constantly switch between awake and asleep for a couple hours at a time? Set a repeating alarm clock every 5 minutes or try to fall asleep with your forearm pointing to the ceiling so it falls and wakes you up when you doze off... It creates a reflex that makes you stay aware in the trance state much more easily... And you get to see hypnogogics many many times over a short period, so it makes you learn the skill exponentially faster than doing it once a night before sleep...

Remember that you're not seeing hypnogogics on the same "screen" as your regular eye vision, you're actually shutting out physical sight and seeing data coming directly from your mind itself... So at first make sure you're in a pitch dark room, and direct all your attention away from physical sight, just in the same way that you would try and "go numb" to get away from physical sensations when you're trying to fully relax your body. One of the key abilities you'll need is the ability to avoid trying to look at hypnogogics with your real eyes; otherwise they'll disappear... As soon as your physical sight reactivates, it's back to square one...

[Sironimoll]

Oliver, have you ever tried a technique where you constantly switch between awake and asleep for a couple hours at a time? Set a repeating alarm clock every 5 minutes or try to fall asleep with your forearm pointing to the ceiling so it falls and wakes you up when you doze off... It creates a reflex that makes you stay aware in the trance state much more easily... And you get to see hypnogogics many many times over a short period, so it makes you learn the skill exponentially faster than doing it once a night before sleep...

I think I want to try that out. I used it when consciously trancing, but never at night.


Today, I got the following:

I had just read Robert's instruction for tranceing again (from the Treatise). I went to a quiet place to sit a little, did breath focus, and tried a bit to induce the climb ladder down visualisation.

Suddenly, without me realising, a picture popped up in my mind. It was as if I was looking with my physical eyes at the floor in front of me, saw the tiles. That's why I did not wonder at first at all. It was the same floor. However, I saw a pair of scissors lying there, with red handles, like I have one at home.

"Popped up" is actually wrong. The picture was just there, as if it was no different from my eyesight. Like you open up your eyes in a dream and do not question the missing moment that must have happened before. What happened now that after a short moment my mind questioned what it saw - "Why is there a scissors on the floor? Makes no sense. Wait a minute, I'm sitting here having my eyes closed, how do I see?". I realised the picture went, and now it seemed to have had an unreal character while not being in focus, but for a moment it had seemed perfectly convincing while I was "tuned in". Like a dream image perhaps?

Today I only had 3.5 hrs of regular sleep and another 45 minutes approx. I had on the commute. Maybe that helped. I'm not sure what it was. I think it jerked my mind back right out of that state just because I did not expect it to happen.

Oliver

[Sironimoll]

This you could call an update. As always thinks happened and I made sense of them way later...

So, at first I was posting in another forum, and got into a controversy, and made my final post about that topic and considered it wiser to leave it at that and not return. I meditated later on, and I saw the page of that forum in my mind, and besides that topic was a new topic with a title that opened the point I made up for discussion. This was a week ago.

Today I meditated and suddenly got a picture about a letter that might possibly arrive soon that is important.

I didn't know what both these sudden pictures mean, but given my weakness in terms of visual recall and seeing something in my mind's eye it took me by surprise.

So I actually thought - are these (mini-)premonitions? So I checked those forums but that thread never materialised, and I checked my mailbox, and that letter did not arrive either.

Now I think these were just visual interpretations of what is "on my mind" at any given time. This might seem way less remarkable than having a premonition ( ), but actually for me it is a sign that something within me allows those pictures to happen again, that something gave way and opened up. It is not much yet, but it is a definite change.

Oliver