[Xxmlqevq]

I really want to know. Obviously I believe they exist, I've had them. But how can you prove it? What if we're all just experiencing lucid dreams that are linked with telepathy or remote eye viewing or something? Can we scientifically prove the concept of out of body travel? I'm sick of skeptics being extremely rude and insulting to my intelligence. I'm a member on another forum for lucid dreams, where there is a board for OBE related things. I answer questions, correct misconceptions, and always deal with skeptics, even though they aren't supposedly allowed in the board.

I have no problem with skeptics. But implying that I am mentally inferior (and I would dare to say that I am probably mentally superior to most of them, not to come off as an arrogant prick, they're just all simple-minded fools) is seriously crossing the line. I hate when people make arguments personal. Arguments should be nothing more than intelligent, mature discussions on a matter with differing positions. The insults are not necessary. It really upsets me.

So is there any way to prove that we can OBE? Conclusive proof. I told them about validations. I told them you can meet someone on the planes and talk to them in physical person later on to confirm it. But it's hard to do consistently.

In a scientific controlled test, how could we prove they are real?!?!

-Rain

[rbVmVlQ2]

In a scientific controlled test, how could we prove they are real?!?!

It is all about scientific significance of experimental data: bigger sample = stronger proof.

http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html

[CibQueersejer]

I don't have much faith in science, personally. I mean, I haven't got anything against science, but it's pretty limited. Science is only good for things in the material plane, and that's absolutely the limit. Anything spiritual is beyond the ability or scope of science to measure or validate.

That being said, there have been plenty of tests where brainwave patterns are studied in people while they do different things. Sleep, dream, lucid dream, meditate, etc. etc. There is a fairly distinctive brainwave pattern that people exhibit when they report having experienced an OBE. I'm not sure how it differs from a lucid dream, because I don't really care all that much what science has to say on the matter of spiritual experiences, but you could probably research it yourself, if you want.

[Goseciwx]

sci·ence n. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena

AP is going to be a case of Plato's Cave untill there are more outside than in I think.

Thusfar science has been all about the physical, atoms etc, so every experience based conclusion an astral projector makes will always be pegged back to some physical/psychological reasoning by the scientist.

Its just about having the experience of AP, and as more and more people have the experience the more it will be treated as a scientific matter.

Rain, one of my best friends is a hardline skeptic, and the irritating kind. I think you just have to be a bit Zen with these people, dont fight the battle head on. They have a lesson to learn, in time they will.

[KuevDulin]

Well something happens with the OBE that is very strange.

For example, one time I twisted my OBE astral body at a 90 degree angle from my physical body. My consciousness being in my astral body was oreiented with the astral body. However, I opened my eyes on my physical. This resulted in a wierd sensation, because my body felt one way, but I was looking at my bedroom with a total different orientation. I felt like the whole bedroom was upside down, and I was on the ceiling!

Suppose one day we prove OBE's are real, does this mean there is life after death? I know thats another whole can of worms, but OBE's do not prove there is life after death at all for me.

[KuevDulin]

Even though I am good at Real-time OBE's im still confused whats really going on myself.

I think RB's treatise on Astral Projection in his collected online works, gives a coherent explanation that fits it with my own personal observations.


Thats all I can "scientifically" say.

[KuevDulin]

I would argue that there is a difference between lucid dreaming and OBE's, due to being CONSCIOUS THE ENTIRE TIME.

I neever lose consciousness when I want to do some Real-time OBE'ing. I consciously go through the vibrations, and I consciously use exit techniques to get out.

I dont see how its close to lucid dreaming in that respect, unless lucid dreaming is really a type of OBE (where you miss the exit sensations and with a loss of consciousness)!!

Who the heck really knows lol

[Xxmlqevq]

There are types of lucid dreams where you are conscious the entire time as well. In fact, out of 4 types of lucid dreams, the ONLY type where you are not conscious the entire time is DILD - Dream Induced Lucid Dream. During a wake-initiated-lucid-dream you never lose consciousness. Both OBE and Lucid dreaming have the same concept- mind awake, body asleep, so there goes that argument..i tried that one already.

Oh well. I guess for now, there's no way to prove it. I'm just sick of closed minded snide skeptic idiots.

[Sillaycheg]

People are rude to you because they are probably little kids or teens behind a computer. If they were face to face with you discussing it, they would act normal.

I too have experienced astral projection. I have also argued with skeptics online, but people never question me about my astral projections in real life.

You also have to keep in mind people ARE mostly idiots. Indeed, most people are not worth talking to. They don't think and just follow the crowd.

It is these skeptics who are the mentally inferior ones, not you. You have more experience and knowledge than them in this field.

[CibQueersejer]

What other people think of my inner reality and spiritual truths is of no importance to me. People can be snide and skeptical all they want, it doesn't change me, and it doesn't change the nature of reality, such as it is. In fact, by being snide and skeptical, they just show their own character and lack of understanding. It's more a reflection on them than on me and my beliefs and experiences.

I have a rule in life that makes my life SO much less stressful. It is: I am not obligated to give weight to the arguments of idiots.

[jeargefef]

There are types of lucid dreams where you are conscious the entire time as well. In fact, out of 4 types of lucid dreams, the ONLY type where you are not conscious the entire time is DILD - Dream Induced Lucid Dream. During a wake-initiated-lucid-dream you never lose consciousness. Both OBE and Lucid dreaming have the same concept- mind awake, body asleep, so there goes that argument..i tried that one already.

Some would argue that a WILD and phasing are the same thing. The terminology depends on your belief system. Since so many dreams are either shared or prophetic, what's the big deal about the 'difference?' a projection is a projection.
Oh well. I guess for now, there's no way to prove it. It depends on who you ask. I have told people what I've seen while I was out, and it was a validation. It may not prove anything because it is a subjective experience, but it is what it is. Why try to convince anyone?

I'm just sick of closed minded snide skeptic idiots. Then stop hanging out with them. I guess what I mean is, why do you care what other people (especially people that are not your friends) think or believe?

[KuevDulin]

There are types of lucid dreams where you are conscious the entire time as well. In fact, out of 4 types of lucid dreams, the ONLY type where you are not conscious the entire time is DILD - Dream Induced Lucid Dream. During a wake-initiated-lucid-dream you never lose consciousness. Both OBE and Lucid dreaming have the same concept- mind awake, body asleep, so there goes that argument..i tried that one already.

Oh well. I guess for now, there's no way to prove it. I'm just sick of closed minded snide skeptic idiots.

I would like to know more about this, because this sounds just like projecting to the astral (skipping out on the RTZ). Like phasing.

[jeargefef]

It is the same (IMHO).

[Haibundadam]

I always feel that when people have to bring aggression into the arguments, and make snide little remarks, they really don't, on a deeper level, completely believe in what they are arguing. Most of them won't even pick up a book to read about it. This is an example of a conversation I had when I tried to get my friend to read Journey's Out of the Body.

"You should read this book..."

"No, i'm sorry, I am already reading enough fiction..."


Also my friend stole astral dynamics from me and hid it and called it BS and stuff like that without ever reading anything about it. I was kind of pissed actually but I didn't express it...

It's just that people like that really don't have a right to speak about it. Who has the right to sit there, and say matter of factly that other people are entirely incorrect in their beliefs without researching the topic at all themselves. That's always what I think to myself.

People who have to put aggression into their arguments, really don't believe what they are saying.

[Xxmlqevq]

Wow I appreciate all of the meaningful answers. And HI CF! long time no see! Anyway, as for WILD, one could argue that it would be phasing...but I believe it would be phasing into a lucid dream. I never really understood what phasing is, but I know that a WILD is a lucid dream, not an OBE. They are similar to try and induce, but they are entirely different experiences. (OBE's vs Lucid dreams). Actually that would make for a great debate.

I have had a few more OBEs since I was last active on here, but they were all Etheric or RTZ projections (I can't tell the difference, I just know they weren't astral). All of these skeptic conversations are starting to make me question my experiences...how do I know what I experienced was out of body? How do I know it wasn't just a different type of lucid dream? Maybe OBEs are just lucid dreams with telepathy, so you really are picking up on real-time things, but your mind needs a way to make sense of it, so it creates a dreamlike environment for you to explore in.

I just don't know anymore

[CibQueersejer]

Also my friend stole astral dynamics from me and hid it and called it BS and stuff like that without ever reading anything about it.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

People who have to put aggression into their arguments, really don't believe what they are saying.

I always think that they might actually be afraid that the person they're arguing with is right. And then where would they be?

In the human species, most (not all) aggression can be traced right back to fear. Just my take on it, though.

[Licacivelip]

When I had my first out of body experience, I had to question everything I thought was true before that experience. I don't know if there is anything anyone could have told me or shown me that would have had that effect on me. I doubt anyone could have proven it to me, maybe some day there will be a science that can prove it.
I'd had lucid dreams many times before I had an obe and none of them changed my life the way feeling myself seperate from my body did. I think eventually everyone has the experience which proves it for them, it may not be in this lifetime. That's okay though, everyone has their own path and is experiencing what they are ready for or what they need right now, in my opinion.

[jeargefef]

Hey, J. I hope it's all good with you.
Rain wrote: Anyway, as for WILD, one could argue that it would be phasing...but I believe it would be phasing into a lucid dream. I never really understood what phasing is, but I know that a WILD is a lucid dream, not an OBE. They are similar to try and induce, but they are entirely different experiences. (OBE's vs Lucid dreams). Actually that would make for a great debate. I think that's WILDs are phasing to a lucid dream- you can phase into different levels (locales, focus of consciousness, bla bla) and some may be entire dream environments, some may be something objectified (that is, created by other dreamers, projectors, etc.) but essentially all projecting has the elements of both.
The astral is preexisting, just as energy is preexisting, but the experiencer gives it form, and the form comes from memory. So a level in the astral will respond to you as you understand things, some levels will respond, some will respond less (like the highest planes will not respond, and you will perceive it as abstraction) so IMO distinguishing an OBE (of the phasing type) from a WILD is a matter of opinion.
IN MY OPINION, of course.

[Xxmlqevq]

That makes sense...My only thing about the similarities is that the lucid dreamstate is built entirely off internal sensory brain functions. It is all in your head, and your subconscious uses schemata to build the world around you. Lucid dreams are build entirely from what you have seen or what you know, most of which is a subconscious process.

The concept of an OBE is that it is split control...most of which is internal sensory structure, but some of which is external, which means something is there, and your actual senses try to percieve what is happening. If a semi truck drives by, and you don't see it, you hear it, and may still be able to determine that a semi truck drove by. External events can still be percieved by the senses, and also by schemata. You only assume that it was a semi truck, because you have heard one before. Whether or not you made the conscious effort to remember what it sounds like, you remember, so that when you hear it again, there's an instant match.

Why am I rambling on about schemata? Because the dreamstate is based entirely on what your subconscious remembers. Said OBEs are supposedly composed of what you expect to see...the very concept of the role of schemata in the dreamstate. Therefore theoretically, no external sensory is needed to comprehend the theorized planes of existence, because they revolve around your thoughts...exactly like lucid dreams. Internal input of information and sensory. Now I have a very limited experience with OBEs, none of which have been to the astral plane, so until I have an OBE to the astral plane, I suppose my argument is partially flawed for now. Not that I want to argue against OBE, but I'm going to, so that you guys can prove me wrong, thus proving all the skeptics wrong. We can do it

I really am starting to have my own questions about OBEs too. HOpefully this discussion will get rid of that.

[jeargefef]

That makes sense...My only thing about the similarities is that the lucid dreamstate is built entirely off internal sensory brain functions. It is all in your head, and your subconscious uses schemata to build the world around you. Lucid dreams are build entirely from what you have seen or what you know, most of which is a subconscious process.

Yes, but realize that schemata includes archetypes, which depending on who you ask, are external, so there. Also remember, that what your subconscious receives (as in the info) can come from the 'collective consciousness', as well as the five senses- so although a dream, lucid or otherwise is entirely brain-created, the materia prima comes from more than just the senses. Hence my reluctance to accept a clear-cut distinction.
The concept of an OBE is that it is split control...most of which is internal sensory structure, but some of which is external, which means something is there, and your actual senses try to percieve what is happening. If a semi truck drives by, and you don't see it, you hear it, and may still be able to determine that a semi truck drove by. External events can still be percieved by the senses, and also by schemata. You only assume that it was a semi truck, because you have heard one before. Whether or not you made the conscious effort to remember what it sounds like, you remember, so that when you hear it again, there's an instant match. The thing is that the distinction inside and outside, depending on what metaphysical model of reality you are coming from, are not necessarily different things. (Pardon me for using the word 'thing'). Many metaphysical models of reality postulate that reality is completely created by the mind- so inside and outside are only frames of reference for consciousness to function in timespace, so to speak.
Why am I rambling on about schemata? Because the dreamstate is based entirely on what your subconscious remembers. Said OBEs are supposedly composed of what you expect to see...the very concept of the role of schemata in the dreamstate. Therefore theoretically, no external sensory is needed to comprehend the theorized planes of existence, because they revolve around your thoughts...exactly like lucid dreams. Internal input of information and sensory. Now I have a very limited experience with OBEs, none of which have been to the astral plane, so until I have an OBE to the astral plane, I suppose my argument is partially flawed for now. Not that I want to argue against OBE, but I'm going to, so that you guys can prove me wrong, thus proving all the skeptics wrong. We can do it Ha ha. Most psychological theorists used to believe indeed that the dreamstate only consists of expected (or previously recorded) stimuli, until they discovered that some dreams had information the subjects couldn't have known unless they received the information from a nonlocal (for want of a better term) source. Then they started using the word 'confabulation' which means that with what we know, our brains can invent stuff we haven't done yet. So there goes that theory. I personally like the 'collective consciousness' theory myself, since I have received info I couldn't have possibly guessed by myself.
I really am starting to have my own questions about OBEs too. HOpefully this discussion will get rid of that. I don't think it really will- unfortunately anything subjective is well, subject to reinterpretation, so, I think the better attitude is- regardless of it's objectivity, it's helpful in life and interesting to ponder. But that's just how I see it, of course.