[BurdenRobert]

http://www.trufax.org/matrix5/welcome.html

I just happened to stumble upon this website. I was blow away. The source of this information was an aprentice to a shaman for 13 years and attended and worked with Robert Monroe. He not only validates Robert Monroes and Bruce Moens information, but has a vast amount of information on everything you could possibly want to know about. I'm convinced this guy is the real deal. And the information he gives makes so much sense. He learned this the way we all learn.. from experiences. The same way Bruce and Robert learned the things they have learned and shared, this man has done the same. But it seems he has learned much, much more. Everyone should check this out. Im buying the books asap.

[FinanseMikky]

-> Everyone,

If you want to know I advise everyone to read the books of
Arthur E. Powell.
Particularly 'Causal Body' (192.

[Ngwkgczx]

And i would strongly recommend you guys to read this book by William Buhlman, "Adventures Beyond The Body" It's really cool, i like the language he uses - it makes the book interesting to read and how he describes his OBEs. there is point to them, it's not just about sneaking out of your body for s**ts and giggles, there is a lot more to it. I personally was inspired by the book

[BurdenRobert]

this book is far more than a how to get out of your body book. Any one can read how to on hundreds of websites. This book explains why we came to earth, what everythigns all about, what we can do when we die, so many different topics. Dont read this book if you want to have an OBE. Read this book if you want some truth about life. Of course, its your choice to believe it or not. From my experience and understanding of things, it makes a lot of sense.

[Misebeita]

Outofbodydude, Scientology will answer the same questions, most likely in a totally different way. So will any number of religious and spiritual philosophies. My personal rule is the simpler you get, the better. The more rules and clauses, the further you're getting from the core of things.

[BurdenRobert]

This is as much of a religion thing as Robert Monroes book about OBEs is. Hence it is not at all about religion. This dude claims to have learned his facts through experience. Religion is all theories, stories, and fairytales. Noone ever had an OBE, learned things by contact with his higher self and other intelligent beings, and created a religion with the info. Its not about religion, its about truth. Now whether it is truths he is saying or not, Im not sure. But that is not the purpose.

[Yswxomvy]

This is as much of a religion thing as Robert Monroes book about OBEs is. Hence it is not at all about religion.

gorillabait didn't say that the Matrix V stuff was a religion. He only said that religions (and Scientology, and spiritual philosophies (and I would add, any number of non-spiritual philosophies)) generally make the same overarching claim to provide "some truth about life" as you put it, or even the truth about life.

This dude claims to have learned his facts through experience. Religion is all theories, stories, and fairytales.

(a) Every religion claims that the truth it provides comes from real experience.

(b) No practitioner of any religion regards his or her own religion as merely "theories, stories, and fairytales". The content of a given religion looks like "theories, stories, and fairytales" only to those outside of that religion. Further, essentially all religions look like "theories, stories, and fairytales" from the outside.

(c) Be cautious about calling someone else's system of belief "theories, stories, and fairytales" unless you are fully and completely comfortable with the fact that he or she might regard your system of belief as just "theories, stories, and fairytales". His or her religion is just as real to him or her as your astral experiences are to you.

To go along with point (c) ...

... Of course, its your choice to believe it or not. From my experience and understanding of things, it makes a lot of sense.

Any devout / faithful person of any religion or spiritual teaching can say the exact same thing about his or her own experience. Therefore, if you find it sufficient to say this of you own experience for your own beliefs to be true, you must accept that anyone who sincerely says the same thing about his or her own experience is entitled to the exact same claim of truth.

Noone ever had an OBE, learned things by contact with his higher self and other intelligent beings, and created a religion with the info.

Many religions make reference to things very much like OBEs, higher selves, and other intelligent beings. To cite just two examples ...

(a) It seems to me that the "visions" of Judeo-Christian-Islamic mysticism are comparable to the experiences Robert Bruce describes taking place on the higher astral planes, where the energies are so far removed from our everyday physical experience, they appear to us earthly types as a montage of symbology.

(b) The core practice of Zen Buddhism of emptying the mind is exceedingly similar to the AP / OBE skill of taming the mind on the way to trance, and the ultimate realization of Zen Buddhism, called satori, is comparable to the "cosmic awareness" or "sense of everything and nothingness" or "feeling as large as the universe" which many people report as a part of reaching a deep state of trance.

Its not about religion, its about truth.

Religion is about truth. So is science. So is art for that matter.

People positively yearn for the truth, and as a whole we continually search for ways to seek the truth. No religion could survive very long at all if it did not promise people a pathway toward truth. Certainly "religion" in the day-to-day has a large dose of the pragmatic, and people by nature get comfy with something and don't like to be disturbed out of what they "know", and that quest for the truth can become calcified into something mundane, or base, or even counter-productive. But the same can happen with this psychic / psionic / ethereal / astral stuff we talk about on this forum, or with any human endeavor.

[BurdenRobert]

Thanks for picking my post apart. Do you really think you could change my views by doing that? Just for future reference, when someone has a belief and you attempt to shut down their views or try to correct them, it actually strengthens their stand on what they believe. ultimately you just waisted however long it took you to write that "critique." The point I am conveying is there are billions of different religions inthe world. You can believe that any one of them is correct. But they are essentially going to hold you back from discovering the real truth for yourself. Sure this dude tries to tell you things that he believes are true. If he is true to his word, then these are things he has discovered for himself. I have discovered many things for myself as well thanks to my OBEs. Believing in any religion is saying stop searching for answers, stop exploring the possibilties, because these are all the possibilities there ever will be, written in this here book, written by man. Not god, by man. The evidence that religions are false piles up higher and higher every day. if you communicated with the people I do you would know this too. But maybe you agree with me.. if so, good job, your a smart cookie

[Yswxomvy]

Deeeep breath ... Love, Light and Peace all around ...

outofbodydude - Trust me when I say that you and I are both here for the same reason. My previous reply was not meant in an adversarial tone, but rather a tone of open discussion. Like you, I am am discovering wondrous things through Robert Bruce's OBE training, even though I am still in the early stages. I expect that when I am able to successfully project out-of-body, that I will discover things far more wondrous still.

My main point was simply that for a great many people, their religious experience is every bit as profound, meaningful, life-changing and deeply held as your own views. It is absurd for you to lump all religions and by extension all religious people together and say that their beliefs are false. Worse, you derided religion in one gigantic sweeping stroke, calling it silly.

As a religious person who is also deeply intrigued by AP and OBE, I was and am motivated to stand up and say, no, religion is not so universally at odds with astral experience as you say it is.

Thanks for picking my post apart.

I simply responded to particular points, one at a time, for the sake of clarity. You made many points in your post, and I attempted to treat each one by itself, to make it clear which of your points I was responding to with each of mine.

You seem to be all about discovery, exploration, and learning. As such, I'm sure you are open to discourse, and in particular, you surely must be open to disagreement. Without disagreement and the discussion which follows, how does one ever learn from the differing experiences of others?

And, if we agree that disagreement can be a part of the very discovery which you pursue, consider this: How might I have disagreed with your point of view and made my same points but written something substantially different than what I wrote? I could certainly have written more harshly, but how could I have been less harsh?

For your part, while it is apparently possible to read what I wrote and imagine that I was being critical, I am certain that it is possible to read what I wrote and imagine that I wrote it in good nature, since that is how I wrote it. Strive to read what people write as constructively written.

Do you really think you could change my views by doing that?

No where did I say that you should change your views. My main purpose was to provide for you and for other forum members and other visitors a balancing point of view about the statements you made about religion. In fact, if you read my reply carefully, I validate the fact that you have a certain deeply held point of view.

... you attempt to shut down their views or try to correct them ...

Again, no where did I attempt to "shut down" your point of view. No where did I say that adopting the Matrix V view of the world would be wrong.

But, tell me: ... When you called religion "all theories, stories, and fairytales", aren't you trying to "shut down" the point of view of all religious people?

But they are essentially going to hold you back from discovering the real truth for yourself. ... Believing in any religion is saying stop searching for answers, stop exploring the possibilities, because these are all the possibilities there ever will be, written in this here book.

Your experience of religion is perhaps different than mine. I belong to a church where we have a very active adult education ministry where we explore all kinds of ideas. We talk about both ancient and recent interpretations of the Bible, we talk about how this or that intersects with our daily experience of the Holy, we talk about other authors and the wisdom they bring to the discussion, we talk about early branches of Christianity which practiced and/or believed such-and-such, etc., etc., etc. I've always found this in the churches of which I have been a member.

In my experience, religion is all about searching, searching, searching for truth.

And, allow me to add that I belong to the Episcopal Church (which is the Anglican Church in North America), so I am talking about a very mainstream church, not an obscure off-shoot or exceptional case.

... written in this here book, written by man. Not god, by man.

No religious person I know thinks that the Bible (or the Torah, or the Koran) was written by God. Everyone I know understands it was written by people, people probably trying to capture their own, personal, amazing, wondrous, life-changing, world-shattering experience of some Higher Reality within the frustrating constraints of feeble human language.

As far as Christianity goes, yes there are those who hold that the Bible was penned by God Himself, but they are (it turns out) a fractional minority of Christians, despite the fact that they seem to be the loudest. Mainline Christianity holds that the Bible is the "inspired word of God", and Christian scholars have been debating its interpretation for nearly 2,000 years. Jewish scholars have been debating the precise interpretation of the Torah for more than 5,000 years.

Once again, this shows that for vast segments of religion and religious people, it in fact involves an on-going discovery of truth.

The evidence that religions are false piles up higher and higher every day.

Again, why do you say this? Everything I know so far about OBE and AP is entirely compatible with what I know about the core of Christianity (and the bits I know about other religions). (By "core" I am setting aside the details of the way Christianity is practiced; those details vary from group to group in a way that is as rich as the variety of human cultures itself.)

But maybe you agree with me.. if so, good job, your a smart cookie

It's very tempting to ignore this part of your reply, for the sake of agreeability. But do you realize how arrogant you sound here? And do you realize that your very complaint about religion amounts to the same thing: "If you agree with us, good for you, because you have found The Truth."

[BurdenRobert]

Once again, this shows that for vast segments of religion and religious people, it in fact involves an on-going discovery of truth. Thats correct. However, you may be shocked when you find out the truth is that religons are created by man to get people to conform to a certain lifestyle and halt their search for any truths that may lay outside of their religions boundaries. I have discovered these truths for myself, as have many others who progress in their OBEs, and believe me they are all outside of religious boundaries. Im not denying god, because god is real, god is true, god is in all of us. But god does not judge, god does not send "bad" people to "hell". Anger, dissapointment, whatever the reason peple may think god will send those "unworthy" to hell for, are totally human emotions that, in the presense of love, do not exist, and god is full of love.

Everything I know so far about OBE and AP is entirely compatible with what I know about the core of Christianity (and the bits I know about other religions). The fact that you say this shows how little you actually know about OBE and AP. You honestly don't know anything at all until you experience it for yourself. Your obviously in need of reading Robert Monroes trilogy. Monroe is the pioneer of Out of Body Experiences. You are also in need of reading books by Bruce Moen, another pioneer of sorts. I have read too much about this subject, trust me when I say that these are the most credible sources out there, with the most accurate information. When you read these, then maybe it will shed some light on this topic. Maybe you can even start going out of body and discover the things Im talking to you about for yourself. I belong to a forum Afterlife Knowledge. A major part of this group partakes in out of body activities called Retrievals. What it is is essentially taking people out of their false "heavens" and "hells." Because of the strong hold religions have on people, and the way things work in the afterlife, people who believe strongly that they are going to go to heaven, or they are going to go to hell, in fact do enter these places. They are real places, but only because people don't know any better and think these are the only options for them, they do not know the possibilities of the afterlife. What afterlife knowledge forum members do is travel to these places, and help these people, trapt in their hollow heavens and hells, realize there is more out there, realize the reason they came to earth in the first place. I could explain all of this to you and answer your questions that you may have regarding what I just said, but reading the books Ive reccommended, perhaps taking a few trips to the afterlife knowledge website and forum, and doing exploring for yourself will open your eyes. I was religious until I realized the truth. The only way to do this is to explore within your self. You have obviously not done this yet, being that you have yet to go out of body. Once you open that door and start finding answers that are not based on a book, not based on a church disscussion of a story someone wrote hundreds of years ago, not based on what you hope is the truth, but based on the answers that find through exporation of the afterlife and communication with your higher self... then you will understand what I understand. And I am not alone on this. and neither will you be either, once your time comes.

The only reason I even bother to help people who think religion is the almighty truth is because everyone deserves to know what the real deal is, but I have a feeling that in time everyone will eventually learn this.

My main point was simply that for a great many people, their religious experience is every bit as profound, meaningful, life-changing and deeply held as your own views. This is probably true. However, I have talked with many god fearing people, and I was once one too. I am now god loving, not god fearing. Anyway, my point is that almost everyone I have talked with on the subject has said that they are not 100% sure of their belief. They may have been 99.9% sure, but it is impossible to for them, and for the old me, to be totally sure in their hearts because they are basing their beliefs off of beliefs that were handed down to them, that were pre-written. The difference between me and others like me, and religious folks, are that my beliefs are not beliefs, they are knowns. Only by experiencing the truth, seeing the truth, being part of the truth, can your beliefs be turned into knowns. I can garantee that every chrisitan, catholic, or whatever religion they are has at one time said... what if I'm wrong about all of this. What if there isn't even a god, or jesus. I know I have said this to myself, and 90% of people I have talked to admitted to this too. I can honestly say that once you discover what I have discovered, and what many people are discovering day after day, there will never be a doubt in your mind again. Our numbers are growing, more and more people are becoming interested in OBEs, the afterlife, higher self communication, every day. Eventually these people just starting out will progress in their learnings, explore deeper and deeper, and advance. I am sure you will too, you were attracted to this subject for a reason, just as I was 6 years ago. I have no doubt in my mind that you will too come to terms with what I am saying. Probably not right now, but when it happens, you will remember me...

[Yswxomvy]

We are, I think, closer in point-of-view than it might first seem. ...

But god does not judge, god does not send "bad" people to "hell". Anger, disappointment, whatever the reason peple may think god will send those "unworthy" to hell for, are totally human emotions that, in the presense of love, do not exist, and god is full of love.

I did not say that God judges people or sends people to hell. I agree that God is full of Love.

I subscribe to a theology that says there cannot be a hell, because hell would be absence of God or total separation from God, and God is everywhere. Separation from God must be self-imposed -- that is, by someone who has turned away from God, or more precisely, has turned inward and ignores the presence of God. Given this view, (a) people can already be "living in hell" before they even die, and (b) nothing except a person's own choice could entrap a person in hell, whether their physical life has ended or not.

Please recognize therefore that even within a given religion, there are many, many points of view on any given religious precept or idea. More on this below ...

Originally Posted by landru27 Everything I know so far about OBE and AP is entirely compatible with what I know about the core of Christianity (and the bits I know about other religions).

The fact that you say this shows how little you actually know about OBE and AP. ... Or, that you say this shows how little you know about my understanding of Christianity. More to my point from my earlier posts, it shows how much you have assumed about me just because I say that I am religious.

Because of the strong hold religions have on people, and the way things work in the afterlife, people who believe strongly that they are going to go to heaven, or they are going to go to hell, in fact do enter these places. They are real places, but only because people don't know any better and think these are the only options for them, they do not know the possibilities of the afterlife.

Ah! Now we seem to be getting down to the particulars of what you find disagreeable about religion. But again, it is not possible to group all religions together under any one idea, not even the idea of "heaven" and "hell", and as I noted above, even within, say, Christianity there is a wide variety of differing understandings about these ideas.

For example, at the end of The Last Battle, the final book in the Narnia Chronicles, written by C. S. Lewis, a very prominent figure in Christian scholarship in the 2nd half of the 20th century, the dwarfs are trapped "in hell" in precisely the way you describe. They are literally surrounded by Paradise, but because of their own expectations, see only darkness, filth, and their own discontentment.

The only way to do this is to explore within your self. You have obviously not done this yet, being that you have yet to go out of body. Once you open that door and start finding answers that are not based on a book, not based on a church discussion of a story someone wrote hundreds of years ago, not based on what you hope is the truth ...

Here you are wrong. True, I have not gone out-of-body, but I have explored within myself, and I have had experiences which tell me with certainty that I have a soul, and that there is a rich spiritual dimension to this world.

Again, your presumptions about religion seem to have shut out the possibility that someone could have a deep spiritual life without having gone out-of-body. I submit to you that the spiritual aspect of ourselves and of the world is not so limited.

(Surely, being able to project out-of-body opens up whole new vistas for experiencing the spiritual world and discovering more about our spiritual selves. I don't disagree with you on that. Indeed, that is why I am exploring this stuff in the first place.)

The only reason I even bother to help people who think religion is the almighty truth ...

Once again, those are not my words. I did not say that religion is almighty truth. Other religious folks might say that their religion is the almighty truth, but the religious people I know recognize the power behind the idea that there are different ways by which to come to know the truth, and that truth-seeking people of differing faiths have more in common than not.

The difference between me and others like me, and religious folks, are that my beliefs are not beliefs, they are knowns. Only by experiencing the truth, seeing the truth, being part of the truth, can your beliefs be turned into knowns.

I regard my beliefs as "knowns", too. Again, while I have never gone out-of-body, I have had experiences which brought me close to things spiritual. Further, my reading of some of the early "fathers of the church" is that they very likely had such experiences, too.

I have no doubt in my mind that you will too come to terms with what I am saying. Probably not right now, but when it happens, you will remember me...

As far as the Matrix V stuff goes, I'm most likely not going to read it, because I am focused right now on doing OBE and AP, not reading about it. As far as the OBE and AP stuff goes ... Dude, you and I are already on the same page.

[swoluelvede]

The images of 'jellyfish' shapes are probably accurate depictions of how oversouls are organized:

http://www.trufax.org/graphics/m5g2.jpg

This is very similar to what Bruce Moen calls 'disks' and put it on the cover of some of his books:

http://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Knowled ... 1571744509



http://www.amazon.com/Voyage-Curiositys ... F8&s=books

[rvadipoldkov]

I totally agree with you, people shouldnt be beaten over the head with this knowledge, and they will find their way eventually. It was no big fuss, Just a friendly debate

[Yswxomvy]

Yes, let's keep it friendly, but allow me to observe ...

... so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

Let's put it this way:

If someone posted the statement, "All this astral and psychic stuff is all theories, stories, and fairytales", wouldn't that cause a fuss? Wouldn't there be several members of this forum motivated to raise their hand and say, "Well, not for me, and not for many people I know."

Since the point where outofbodydude posted his "all theories, stories, and fairytales" statement, the discussion has taken on some more detail, and at this point I can say "Amen!" to both his and your observations about how wrong it is in those cases where religion promotes fear, self-worthlessness, closed-mindedness, and things along those lines. If that had been the heart of the matter earlier, then there wouldn't have been such a fuss.

I'm sure most of us would agree that anything which promotes fear, self-worthlessness, closed-mindedness, and so forth is wrong to do so.

But, one can find people claiming psychic abilities or astral knowledge who prey upon people's fears, sense of self-doubt, and parochial tendencies. Wouldn't it be wrong for someone to come along and say that, because they know people -- even many people -- who have been duped or hurt by people claiming to be psychics and mystics, all this psychic and astral stuff is nonsense? Wouldn't several members of this forum step forward and say, "Some people claiming to be psychics and mystics might be frauds, but that doesn't mean astral projection and spiritual phenomena are fake." ?

As a member of this on-line community, I spoke up to lend my voice and say that religion can have a place in one's discovery of the astral, and the astral can have a place in one's religious understanding.

[Diortarkivoff]

Thanks for posting the site outofbodydude. The information was intriguing and I enjoyed reading it.