[trowUrillioth]

It's not necessary to go through all the motions of determining whether or not OBEs are dreams by investigating OBE itself. You can simply become aware of the overall truth as explained in The Disappearance of the Universe, and everything else will come into perspective as your understanding of the truth increases. Here are some of the things about OBEs and lucid dreams and such that I've become aware of, or become strong enough to accept, since becoming aware of truth.

Notice that some OBE authors had a more definite theory about astral projection than other authors. You can read the book The Practice of Magic by Draja Mickaharic. On pages 87 thru 89 in this book he mentions that while OBE one can lift physical objects generally up to about a third of their physical weight, write messages to leave for people in locked rooms, and eventually do just about anything they would otherwise be able to do if they were physically there. And he definitely insists that concrete results can be obtained with astral projection, and that if concrete results cannot be obtained one is just indulging in self-delusion or fantasizing. He advises that these projected fantasies can very well involve a number other people.

Yet contemporary literature and authors, like Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce, and his subsequent 90-day training manual Mastering Astral Projection, mention things like reality fluctuations and slipping into the astral planes. How can you ever determine if it is a dream or not if you can simply explain away the dreamlike nature as a part of the experience itself? Whereas before like with Draja you are either OBE or not, and if you are OBE you are seeing definite things and can do objective things like move physical objects (see The Practice of Magic, pages 87 thru 89), now if you 'get out' and everything is different that what you would expect, you are at the least experiencing a lucid dream, or you are either experiencing reality fluctuations, or you have faded into the astral dimension (see MAP page page 226). Where is there room to determine if it is anything but a dream?? [You can use the 'search inside' feature at Amazon.com to review these pages.] The REAL alternative is much better (See The Disappearance of the Universe).

I've have personal discussion with a prominent author on OBE literature, and even after writing his book and teaching workshops and stuff as if it's all real, he told me he's still trying to find out if its real- still professing publicly that it's all real, even in the face of direct assessment that his experiences are dreams.

I had relations with a less prominent but very proficient 'out-of-body traveler', and when I was a rookie he had a rock solid veneer of knowing its true and real and having definite experiences. But as the years wore on and my own experience and literary knowledge increased I began to see where his enlightened discourses to me were really just rattling off of impromptu hypotheses about stuff he hadn't even experienced or developed yet. And as we became actual friends he let down his guard some and informed me that he was still unsure of his experiences, trying to get me to master OBE so we can experiment together so he can determine why his experiences are different than several things as is written in books by others. Written accounts make the experience seem a lot more definite, or even a lot more fluid, than we often like to admit to ourselves is really the case with our own experiences.

How many OBE authors and practitioners are just putting forth theories, or actually trying to convince themselves with their own writings, being less than honest about their knowledge, surety, and/or abilities, or even just outright lying? And because many people are not aware of the REAL alternative, as clarified in The Disappearance of the Universe, and detailed in A Course in Miracles, we cling to the idea of out-of-body travel or whatever our chosen path or process is, trying to keep our sense of worth, and special-ness, and understanding intact.

There is a better way..

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Your thoughts please??


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And has anyone been able to actually move something physically as Draja suggests? I've been told by people they have, but those sources have become questionable. Have you? I've had people say they got out with the intent for instance to move a sheet of paper, but when they 'got out' there were two sheets of paper instead of the one they put there. The projector moved both sheets but when was supposedly back in the physical body the sheet of paper was still in its original position.

Please share your experiences with moving (or not moving) things while out of body!

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[trowUrillioth]

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Added to end of first post..

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[Irravepem]

i never moved things while out but i dont think that this means that i dwell in self-delusionment and fantasizing because there are objective aspects during OBEs and i gathered information that i couldnt possibly know. maybe there is a type of OBE where you can directly interact wiht the physical reality but this doesnt mean that experiences where you cant do it are just fantasies.

[crycleascentyv]

OBE is very rare.

[trowUrillioth]

i never moved things while out but i dont think that this means that i dwell in self-delusionment and fantasizing because there are objective aspects during OBEs and i gathered information that i couldnt possibly know. maybe there is a type of OBE where you can directly interact wiht the physical reality but this doesnt mean that experiences where you cant do it are just fantasies.

The main point is that even if you did or can move things while OB, or directly interact with physical reality, OBE is still fantasy, just as the physical world is just a fantasy. They're all different forms of the same illusion. That's an overall truth I referred to at the beginning of my post. There IS a reality to be made aware of, but it's just not at the level of perception in any form, any form of which is still part of the dream/illusion.

OBE is very rare.

Please explain OBE being very rare?

[crycleascentyv]

It is very rare...just that! There is nothing more to explain.

[trowUrillioth]

It is very rare...just that! There is nothing more to explain.

I mean, are you saying that OBE is rare as if to say, most of the people who post journals regularly at this forum are not really experiencing OBE, but there is a 'real' OBE that correlates with physical reality that is rarely experienced??

Or are you saying that the OBE journals we see posted here and other sites IS the rarity of OBEs that you speak of, as if to say the majority of humanity at large doesn't experience it?

[crycleascentyv]

No, I'm saying that only approx 10% of the population have had conscious obe. If I were to include the claim that we all project every night but don't know it then I could hardly call it an "experience."

I definately don't believe that everyone who claims to have experienced obe actually have, and I definately don't believe that everyone is lying...that would be ludicrous. But there are your fantasists and romantics to deal with

I think we can safely agree that obe is very real indeed..whatever causes it, and I think we can safely assume that, along with the phenomena itself, there comes a lot of totally insignificant, irrational and imaginative jibber that serves a catchment market/subculture.

Time disentangles the good from the crap. So we must wait and see. You can pretty much believe whatever you want about astral projection and rest easy knowing no one can legitimately say you're wrong.

Everyone is trying to make sense of the phenomena in their own way. Mystics will assert that it's a spiritual journey and will hang their own concepts and beliefs on it. Scientists will insist that it's all in the head and will set about attempting to prove it (which may take tens of years). Then you have people like me who are piggy in the middle, watching the ball fly form one side to the other and going Oh! That's interesting.

It's all ideas.

[trowUrillioth]

Cool post man. Thanks.