[JennaJJxoxoxo]

This link is to a video on "think tank" Ben Wattenberg

Very, very interesting discussion... Check it out..........thinktanktv.com

[Sandra_18X]

Excellent watch Bill, and another intellectual bookmark added to my browser for future reference...

I felt that Michael Ruse presented a more compelling argument here. I have pursued this human dilemma since my childhood, and was fortunate not to have had structured religion poured in my mind during those impressionable years (thus freeing me from this dogmatic belief system). This debate will likely never end until either Jesus comes down again, or these missing gaps of evolution are closed via the application of scientific theories (as they have and continue to do since Darwin's writings).

IMO, the theory of intelligent design was conceived solely in an attempt to modernize religion, out of fear that this Darwin character was being taken to seriously. After all, ID was invented in the late 1980's by a lawyer and born again christian named Phillip Johnson. Below I have linked a site which offers explanations to support ID. While I find these readings and videos interesting, though the information is very simple - in that it refers to living cells as motors and machines (thus alluding to a designer).

http://www.alienmania.org/intelligent-design.html

For Bill and Smurf (others), I have also provided links below to FORA.tv and Snag Films. FORA.tv runs a website that gathers the web's largest collection of unmediated video drawn from live events, lectures, and debates at universities, think tanks and conferences - covering science, technology, culture, politics, environment, economy and religion. Free

http://fora.tv/

Snag Films... What can I say, an outstanding site offering free short and full length documentaries and soooo much more. ENJOY!

http://www.snagfilms.com/

Of course I had to end this post with another of my mentor's brilliant take on religion (Santa Claus Eligible)...

[Wymdqcvb]

LOL.............

I am not really sure what their motives are... Perhaps Boogie or S-H are more familiar w/ it...

I have only recently learned about it..

I just finished a book called Privileged planet & I found it very interesting..........

While watching the great series on socialism that Common Sense posted I was digging around in the archives @ think tank & came across this one...

While I think most of us think the chances of this or that happening are quite remote, I for one never really considered just how remote.... How lots of things not only had to happen but had to @ the right place & @ the right time & then a bunch more shit had to happen in a like manner etc.....

The book essentially focused more on Carl Sagan's Copernican interpretations.. That we are just another planet like lots of others.........

While they do not deny the possibility of ET's they do lay out that rather than being common, what we have is quite rare to say the least......

[Zwnkkvle]

The human mind is amazing at creating a plethora of viable theories to explain our existence. My only issue is when these theories inherently cause dogma to be applied. How some of these inventions of how we got here, inherently lock out scientific methodology from being utilized - to further credit/discredit these beliefs.

IMO, if one uses rational thinking, Scientology has much more merit, than any biblical story that has ever been told.

Any feedback on FORAtv or Snag Films from the peanut gallery?

[Vikonbarius]

After years of having alternately been a Christian and delving into the Occult, along with a variety of different philosophies and metaphysics ........

I think "others" were fucking around with us, back at the dawn of human civilization. And over the millenia much has been misinterpreted and misunderstood; along with human nature having it's way.

In other words, I'm not sure about anything other than, there's more going on than meets the eye.

[BariGrootrego]

After years of having alternately been a Christian and delving into the Occult, along with a variety of different philosophies and metaphysics ........

I think "others" were fucking around with us, back at the dawn of human civilization. And over the millenia much has been misinterpreted and misunderstood; along with human nature having it's way.

In other words, I'm not sure about anything other than, there's more going on than meets the eye.

there isn't, except we've had time to evolve complex abstract thought.

Life force, however it was created, by an outside God, or primordial ooze has it's on agenda - to expand wherever possible by finding ways to exploit it's enviorinment.

Others fucking around?
could be the germination, or it could simply be a logical devopment by the amount of differrnt element created by stars that make the potential for life to grab a toe hold whever conditions permit.

we've seen organic molecules present on other planets.
Ya know -Space Aliens and such

[flanna.kersting]

there isn't, except we've had time to evolve complex abstract thought.

Life force, however it was created, by an outside God, or primordial ooze has it's on agenda - to expand wherever possible by finding ways to exploit it's enviorinment.

Others fucking around?
could be the germination, or it could simply be a logical devopment by the amount of differrnt element created by stars that make the potential for life to grab a toe hold whever conditions permit.

we've seen organic molecules present on other planets.
Ya know -Space Aliens and such

Thanks for sharing your opinion but unless you understand that we don't understand diddley at this point and time about certain areas that we have only speculated on for thousands of years then im sure you don't understand what a myth is and how it applies in our history.

[AdobeCreativeSuite]

there isn't, except we've had time to evolve complex abstract thought.

Life force, however it was created, by an outside God, or primordial ooze has it's on agenda - to expand wherever possible by finding ways to exploit it's enviorinment.

Others fucking around?
could be the germination, or it could simply be a logical devopment by the amount of differrnt element created by stars that make the potential for life to grab a toe hold whever conditions permit.

we've seen organic molecules present on other planets.
Ya know -Space Aliens and such

Every single culture on Earth has references to gods coming down from the sky in relation to the start of human civilization. And only at that point in time did man record the stories of creation, in that misty past of passed down stories. That's what I meant about "others" fucking around with us.

On the main topic, one must ask, what is life itself? Based on non-living molecules originally formed out of nothing (based on the Big Bang origin of the Universe). In other words, there's some force that creates living matter, that eventually culminates in intelligent beings, out of simple chemical and energy interactions. Something at a microcosmic scale "wants" to evolve into complex expressions of matter.

Therefore I propose that the Universe itself is alive, continually finding new ways to expresss itself, through all the diverse forms of life we find. And if that's true, then the underlying force would be God, by generic definition. And I present the hypothesis that our misinterpretations of (or ideas planted by) more evolved life forms interacting with us (possibly millions or billions of years more evolved than us) in the distant past were thought of a God, gods, angels, etc., by the original primitive cultures that led to civilization as we know it.

And here's something that sounds simple, yet gets complicated when understood that the original framework was inorganic matter: What is abstract thought itself?

How do you get from gas and rock to Stephen Hawking, without an underlying force, which apparently has "a desire" to evolve?

[squicscor]

I don't really know much about the debate as it is relatively new to me & I guess I never really cared all that much one way or the other..

It seems to me that "the design" or as you put it "the desire" is challenged by chance... It seems that given enough odds just about anything can happen??? Or perhaps not??

From what little I have learned it seems that most things are rather unique, but that does not infer intelligence or design..

But on the flip side of that we seem to be in a pretty good position & have a lot of things going for us........ So much so that we would be challenged to improve upon it........

SO while we may wish to fine tune or "improve" this or that, that will likely come @ a price of something else...... Bigger, smaller planet. Closer or further away from the sun, thicker crust etc + the planet has a pretty good way to adjust & renew......... We may not like earth quakes & volcanoes but we would likely be much worse off, or dead w/out them....

[spoddersedpn]

It seems to me that "the design" or as you put it "the desire" is challenged by chance... It seems that given enough odds just about anything can happen??? Or perhaps not??

From what little I have learned it seems that most things are rather unique, but that does not infer intelligence or design..

Think about it ..........

The number of failed mutations over the millenia that would have to greatly outnumber successful evolutiuonary changes, if the whole thing were chance .......... going from a rock to Albert Einstien.

Things seem to know what to evolve into, or they disappear. And even the ones that disappeared survived for a time - so why aren't we seeing multitudes of past and present-day failed mutations - if the whole thing is pure chance ... evolving from a rock and gas into a modern human being. What is the mechanism that makes things change and why?

[Pipindula]

Every single culture on Earth has references to gods coming down from the sky in relation to the start of human civilization. And only at that point in time did man record the stories of creation, in that misty past of passed down stories. That's what I meant about "others" fucking around with us.

"If God didn't exist. man would have to invent him"
With self awarness, and knowledge of mortality, comes the human question -
why am I here, only to die as soon as I get an understanding of what the world is? (wisdom).
We can't accept we single humans go thru life, aquire skills, and success, then die the same as a pauper, or simple mind.

we also refuse to se we are of the earth, and are created from primitive organic molecules. In just the condition s proper to grow more complex, to form new life forms.
Life seeks to expand, it IS a force m, the same as gravity, or mass - yes The Living Universe.

"Every now and then I down to the end of the day
And I have to stop and ask myself why I've done it.
It just seems so useless to have to work so hard
And nothin' ever really seems to come from it. ( Petty)


On the main topic, one must ask, what is life itself? Based on non-living molecules originally formed out of nothing (based on the Big Bang origin of the Universe). In other words, there's some force that creates living matter, that eventually culminates in intelligent beings, out of simple chemical and energy interactions. Something at a microcosmic scale "wants" to evolve into complex expressions of matter.

Therefore I propose that the Universe itself is alive, continually finding new ways to expresss itself, through all the diverse forms of life we find. And if that's true, then the underlying force would be God, by generic definition. And I present the hypothesis that our misinterpretations of (or ideas planted by) more evolved life forms interacting with us (possibly millions or billions of years more evolved than us) in the distant past were thought of a God, gods, angels, etc., by the original primitive cultures that led to civilization as we know it.

And here's something that sounds simple, yet gets complicated when understood that the original framework was inorganic matter: What is abstract thought itself?

How do you get from gas and rock to Stephen Hawking, without an underlying force, which apparently has "a desire" to evolve? You are describing the ancient idea of life force, which isn't just an individuals spirirt - but the taoist idea that all things alive are spiritual
( having more than just a simple physical form, but also a life force of Chi

Chi is universal life force on this planet, i see no reason why other places where life can exist, which also doesn't have similair force to drive replication and more life forms.

[RLRWai4B]

Think about it ..........

The number of failed mutations over the millenia that would have to greatly outnumber successful evolutiuonary changes, if the whole thing were chance .......... going from a rock to Albert Einstien.

Things seem to know what to evolve into, or they disappear. And even the ones that disappeared survived for a time - so why aren't we seeing multitudes of past and present-day failed mutations - if the whole thing is pure chance ... evolving from a rock and gas into a modern human being. What is the mechanism that makes things change and why?

Well from what I gather reading about "intelligent design" it would seem so..

I have wondered why we can not make a oyster & yet a stupid shell of snot (tasty snot though) can make an oyster..

I have heard ppl make analogies regarding the improbability of the existence of life or even intelligent life as the same as putting stuff in a blender then coming out w/ the dictionary or War & Peace etc.....

Never really impressed me much as in fact those are objects.. While one may have an understanding of the meaning of the text & can perhaps understand the meaning, the meaning itself is not derived from the object.........

So putting stuff in a blender can possibly get yea a dictionary or a good margarita, it is not going to get you a laugh, a dream or a thought..

Complex, intelligent life would seem to require more, much more...

[YpciJQdo]

An interesting, compelling and logical explanation for the existence of 'religion'...



Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frwlyx2u8JE

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFFZ4iEFCo

[TheLucyLee]

Think about it ..........

The number of failed mutations over the millenia that would have to greatly outnumber successful evolutiuonary changes, if the whole thing were chance .......... going from a rock to Albert Einstien.

Things seem to know what to evolve into, or they disappear. And even the ones that disappeared survived for a time - so why aren't we seeing multitudes of past and present-day failed mutations - if the whole thing is pure chance ... evolving from a rock and gas into a modern human being. What is the mechanism that makes things change and why?

Life has existed on Earth for over a billion years. It's insects and bacteria that still rule the world. Humans can change their environment but we are still not as successful as other species.

There is a vast number of mutations that disappear. In America it's estimated that 50% of all human conceptions end in miscarriage. Are those basically some form of mutation that didn't work?

Millions of mutations die off constantly in nature. Probably billions every year. Stronger and smarter mutations survive and weaker mutations die off.

If 2 bears mutate in the woods and 1 mutates into something stronger and faster then it will eat more. If the other mutates into something without claws it dies off quickly.

We don't see failed mutations because they die. Only in humans with modern medicine do we see weaker mutations becoming common place. In the animal world world the weaker die off far more quickly.

Look at dogs. Through selective breeding 1n just 15,000 or so years we've created many mutated breeds. The ones that compete with us by being aggressive and harming us or eating our food supply are quickly killed. The weaker mutations are not bred and only the ones that have good traits move on to mate with others.

I think with just he number of galaxies, stars, planets and time that life would have to form. There's no way to avoid it.

If a wise and powerful being seeded this planet, I tend to think we'd be better than we are.

[fectsnanteemy]

Well from what I gather reading about "intelligent design" it would seem so..

I have wondered why we can not make a oyster & yet a stupid shell of snot (tasty snot though) can make an oyster..

I have heard ppl make analogies regarding the improbability of the existence of life or even intelligent life as the same as putting stuff in a blender then coming out w/ the dictionary or War & Peace etc.....

Never really impressed me much as in fact those are objects.. While one may have an understanding of the meaning of the text & can perhaps understand the meaning, the meaning itself is not derived from the object.........

So putting stuff in a blender can possibly get yea a dictionary or a good margarita, it is not going to get you a laugh, a dream or a thought..

Complex, intelligent life would seem to require more, much more...

I was thinking about it all last night.

There has to be something, in DNA itself, that has enough awareness and intent to know what an entire species needs when it must change to suit a change in the creature's environment. An actual knowledge of what to reprogram into the DNA, to cause the evolutionary outward change in physical characteristics.

And then of course, something had to know how to create DNA in the first place, in order for anything to have become alive. It's really awesome when you think about it - everything has it's own specific programming, that can self-modify when required.

[Pyuvjzwf]

I was thinking about it all last night.

There has to be something, in DNA itself, that has enough awareness and intent to know what an entire species needs when it must change to suit a change in the creature's environment. An actual knowledge of what to reprogram into the DNA, to cause the evolutionary outward change in physical characteristics.

And then of course, something had to know how to create DNA in the first place, in order for anything to have become alive. It's really awesome when you think about it - everything has it's own specific programming, that can self-modify when required.

DNA mutations are common. Darwinism says the succesful mutations thrive, and change the species.
Unsucessful mutations do not adapt, and die off.

It's all chemical, even the genesis of life on earth, we're pretty much in agreement that simple organic molecules combined to produce the original micro-organism.

That's the life force i mentioned.

If it happened here on earth, why wouldn't it happen somewhere else?

Scientists look for planets that have water molecules.

There may even be non water requiring life forms out there.


I kinna think that if any micro-organism cca form, and the conditions are right for it to evolve, then life will naturally folow.

[SHUSIATULSE]

DNA mutations are common. Darwinism says the succesful mutations thrive, and change the species.
Unsucessful mutations do not adapt, and die off.

It's all chemical, even the genesis of life on earth, we're pretty much in agreement that simple organic molecules combined to produce the original micro-organism.

That's the life force i mentioned.

If it happened here on earth, why wouldn't it happen somewhere else?

Scientists look for planets that have water molecules.

There may even be non water requiring life forms out there.


I kinna think that if any micro-organism cca form, and the conditions are right for it to evolve, then life will naturally folow.

How does that differ from faith?? Since you really have nothing to base it on..

Afterall, for all we know all the things necessary for life here, would also be necessary for life "there".......... ???

[sanddrareyk]

Life has existed on Earth for over a billion years. It's insects and bacteria that still rule the world. Humans can change their environment but we are still not as successful as other species.

There is a vast number of mutations that disappear. In America it's estimated that 50% of all human conceptions end in miscarriage. Are those basically some form of mutation that didn't work?

Millions of mutations die off constantly in nature. Probably billions every year. Stronger and smarter mutations survive and weaker mutations die off.

If 2 bears mutate in the woods and 1 mutates into something stronger and faster then it will eat more. If the other mutates into something without claws it dies off quickly.

We don't see failed mutations because they die. Only in humans with modern medicine do we see weaker mutations becoming common place. In the animal world world the weaker die off far more quickly.

The stupid continue to pollute the gene pool because the government fosters their existence.

Look at dogs. Through selective breeding 1n just 15,000 or so years we've created many mutated breeds. The ones that compete with us by being aggressive and harming us or eating our food supply are quickly killed. The weaker mutations are not bred and only the ones that have good traits move on to mate with others.

I think with just he number of galaxies, stars, planets and time that life would have to form. There's no way to avoid it.

If a wise and powerful being seeded this planet, I tend to think we'd be better than we are.

Maybe we are a crop.
Harvesting to begin in 2012.

[SerycegeBunny]

Evolutionists reject design as intelligent.

[loan4younow]

Evolutionists reject design as intelligent.

They also reject the existence of superHerOs, WTF is wrong w/ these ppl..

You know there are Christians, Jews & Muslims that believe in it to.....

Admittedly I am no expert on the topic & have found it boring over the years but I have found it interesting reading the #'s involved in "chance" & "chance mutations" etc..........

About a year or so ago I watched a few documentaries w/ the theme "What Darwin didn't know".......... Basically dealing w/ mass extensions from various sources like comets/meteor, vulcanism, "snow ball earth" etc....

You should check out this thread if you get some time today:


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