[SusanSazzios]

Sorry to be so late returning here:

You may have stated what could be the most I can hope for GC: "Agnostic Wiccan." The terms god and goddess may only be words I'll ever use to sum up everything I don't understand or can explain into a neat little package. It's sort of a way to make discussions about Life and the Universe simpler to engage in with others.

We all work with a jargon that others may or may not understand immediately and utilizing or updating your personal lexicon mid-conversation will make the discussion go much more smoothly!

[Weislenalkata]

Agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. I don't know about the "unknowable" part, but I'd say, off hand, that as far as the rest, most people would fit that category. I believe in the Grandfather. I have been to the spirit realm many times, and will go there many more times, my life permitting. But I firmly believe that most facets of life are unknown to me, and even to those in the spirit realm. That doesn't, at the same time, prevent me from believing in the Grandfather, the worth of many other religions, or in shamanism. In fact, my belief in shamanism is BASED on my own experience.

[Chiquita]

Mr. Rake, I'm glad you are finding a path that is comfortable. Expanding outwards beyond your normal beliefs is called growth, even if you return to your original set you take something back with you from those practices and beliefs. Hopefully something positive.

I am a lot like Cthulu in the sense that I use paganism as a tool to label universal energies and actions that do not yet have a name. I see a lot of spiritual inter-relatedness and I see a lot of science that has yet to be explained.

But all-in-all sir, it does not matter what or whether you believe, it does not effect me and I do not see you as a better or worse person for your individual beliefs (and even if I did would it matter). I see you as a better person only because you stay true to who you are and are courageous enough to not only expand your horizons and walk a mile in some shoes but also not judge based on a difference in beliefs.

[BrifsGefel]

Mr. Rake, I'm glad you are finding a path that is comfortable. Expanding outwards beyond your normal beliefs is called growth, even if you return to your original set you take something back with you from those practices and beliefs. Hopefully something positive. You have no idea how much I've learned the past few years just being involved with ULC and Tribal Mary. There was a time, coming from a Methodist background, and then considering myself Atheist for many years, that even uttering the word "Pagan" would have been something quite foreign and completely unfathomable for me. Sadly, to me anyway, many people will go through their lives and never look outside the religion that they were raised in.

[unsamiSlini]

Concurred with the purchase frenzy...at the time that these thoughts were evolved the materials were readily available, but we have been cohearsed into thinking that others have to gather the materials that we need for life and we have to work our asses off so that they keep collecting those addictions, that we could very well collect ourselves.

Now on the subject of nothing beyond, I will have to disagree with you there. I've experienced energy existence beyond the body that we can "touch" and I don't reccomend that you wish to find this experience yourself..could be what your accident was all about...next time it may not be such a gentle nudge.

I have had some very hard life lessons, of which I manifested, so I tread lightly when I wish upon that which I cannot see...because it has bonked me time and time again.

I don't feel the need to push you in any direction Rake, I don't think any of us do...it is your destiny..what is it that you wish to do with the time you have here? That is the real question...that is the physical touching part...that is what you truly seek...Yes?

Yes, the Spiritual Industry will have it's cold hard cash. Anytime I've been to a "pagan store" or maybe a festival, I've noted the incredible prices. I have no problem with people attempting to make a living in a reasonable manner, and that's a reasonable manner if they can get the money, but spare me the diatribes about the importance of nature and the heights of enlightenment. Even Jesus allegedly said "render unto Caesar what is his, render unto God what is His" or whatever.

I accept that we disagree on the nothing beyond part. You've seen it, I haven't CC. That's simple to me as far as an example as to why someone might believe what they believe. If you mean my recent auto accident, it just happened, you'll have that with human beings in near proximity to each other, it wasn't directed, that's why they're called accidents. Heck, it didn't even qualify as a coincidence. It was probably closer to "fatalism,'' if it happened it happened. One of my favorite quotes, displayed at my desk at work: "Something that, in happening, causes something else to happen causes something else to happen." (Douglas Adams)

I know that you would not push me, perhaps if you thought it was for my own good, that's what friends do. But you are correct, the need is to make the most of what is here now, what I'm experiencing in the physical and real. How many times have we received or read the advice that we should live each day as if it were our last? That's not spirituality, that's just plain common sense. (And it's another topic again as to whether anyone is actually able to truly do that.)

[JulieSmithXIV]

Welcome back indoors Rake.

Now you can start believing in yourself.

You are correct WDM, that is why we have also long had the Belief in Self forum category here. It always seemed to me that it went hand in hand with Agnosticism. Not necessarily the same things or the flip sides of the coin, but a reasonable, alternate path.

[seperalem]

My beliefs do change. Life is dynamic, so my beliefs are as well. But the longer I live, and the more things I experience, the stronger those beliefs become, though there are minor changes in the beliefs themselves.

Perhaps it would be helpful to explain some, but not by any means all, of those experiences.

A neighbor, elderly lady, became sick. She was taken to the hospital and diagnosed with extreme terminal cancer, and given a couple months to live. Her stomach and liver were virtually gone. A prayer team was set up to pray for her. Though she was very spiritual, and a very, very good person because of that belief, she knew nothing at all about it, nor did her family at that point. Her condition steadily deteriorated until the prayer team was assembled. Then, seemingly miraculously, as people started praying for her, she started recovering. Doctors had no explanation. In less than a month, she was released from the hospital. In less than six, her stomach was performing properly and her liver was regenerating, as livers do. About a year after this (and she still did not know that anyone had prayed for her), she told me that she was laying there and suddenly felt a calm, loving presence. She suddenly knew she was going to be okay. Ramona passed away fifteen years ago, of old age, and she was healthy at that time. If there was no deity, why would she recover with mere prayer, without even knowing that the prayer was given?

Another case was my mother. Despite the fact that my grandmother was a true Christian, living the life rather than merely talking about it, my mom didn't believe in God. She felt that things just happened because they happened, nothing more. She'd lost family members, and thought that there couldn't be a God if her loved ones had died like that. Then she came across a time when she was set to lose everything. She was a real estate salesman and hadn't made a sale in six months. All the bills, power, water, house payment, car payment, were overdue and subject to being turned off or closed out. She did something extraordinary...she prayed to God for help. Very unexpectedly, a property that was "unsellable" was sold, producing almost exactly the amount necessary to pay the bills.

Another case; a man came to me who had severe problems. His health was failing, and everything, financially, was falling down around him. His wife had left him, his kids hated him, he owed money to the IRS, he had no place to stay, and he was in danger of losing his job. I accepted the case, and contacted my guide. She told me that his soul was damaged, and that was a cause of the problem. I won't go into the details, but I went deeper into the spirit realm than I'd ever been. I was scared, and I didn't know what I was doing. But I did what I could. Again, I won't go into details, but I did what I had to, with the help of my spirit guide. The man ended up reconciling with his wife, he was able to put his kids through school, and they now think very highly of him, he not only kept his job, he was promoted, and the IRS contacted him to let him know that THEY had made a mistake and actually owed him money.

This is just three of probably 30-40 instances that show me that there IS someone greater than us, out there and listening. Do they always answer? Yes they do. But the answer comes in three ways: Yes, No, and Not now. But even when the answer is no, there is a very good reason for it, which may not be apparent for some time.

I've been cynical in the past, but I'm not any longer. Too much has happened and continues to happen.

I guess my thinking would be that why couldn't these things have happened the way they did because that was simply how they happened Rex? Why does there have to be any reason at all that they happened beyond what was seen by someone observing them all? That would even go beyond simply trying to brush all of the incidents and chains of events off as simple coincidences, it could actually be a form of logical reasoning. Why did they have to be directed? And going back to my original post, why do we even have to understand what happened with these incidents? (And BTW, I know that you can answer all of my questions...LOL. I ask them so that maybe you might give me an answer that will make me go "aha! perhaps there is something to this spiritual stuff!" )

The gain was that there were good resolutions to these problems, that was the "blessing" in each situation. For some reason, it never seems like that's enough for people. It seems as if many people can't just accept the goodness (choose own word there.) or whatever of a positive result in a conflict without assigning it to a third party. And why can't that make them happy by itself? Why does it only have meaning if it was spiritual or assigned to Deity? Where's the humanity? The simple belief in the power of a human to overcome adversity, or to just simply wait it all out until what is supposed to, or not, happen....er...um.....happens?

[Repwailia]

Rake, I fully support your change or release of your belief. If there was a certainty then there wouldn't be all the different diverse paths available. You are doing what your heart and mind desires. By coming out and stating exactly what you decide your path to be you are coming to terms with it and are inviting the feedback you are receiving. This is a good thing, I do not know how many others have the same beliefs, but maybe this will allow others to realize that they are not alone.

Walk the path you desire, not what you think others want you to do.

Thank you Marc....and everybody for their responses. It's true, we should be able to discuss this stuff openly.

Even if I were a Buddhist talking to another Buddhist, or a Christian talking with another Christian, and on and on, regardless of how much we believed in our religions it would seem that it would be better, and healthier, for both parties of the same beliefs to still examine the other possibilities. It's the same reason that anyone can start a topic in a forum like this one regardless of their religion or path.

There are centuries upon centuries of documented discussions and philosophies in regard to the human inquiry into religion, it's a never-ending debate as to what is real and who is right. Anyone accepting a religion or path blindly may be seriously overlooking something, as CC mentioned here. (well, sort of....LOL)

[encumeterz]

OK, who did I forget?

Here's the crux of my own debate, a short story:

I set out one day to begin writing down just exactly what it was that I believed religiously and spiritually. A statement similar to what I've seen others display in their profiles at ULC boards. There were different categories - life after death, the creation of the Universe, scriptures, souls - I tried to cover all of the main areas that comprise a religion or path.

As I sat there typing, I realized that there were some things I couldn't explain. Things happened, physical anomalies like universes being created that I had no true idea of how they came to be. (I pretty much accept the Big bang theory.) I figured it was OK that I couldn't grasp explanations for them, so I'd just assign the term "God/dess" to them all to more easily group the unexplained altogether into one category. Things were happening for some reason and they must be directed. I didn't actually think or believe that there was any real Deity whose physical appearance or actions I could describe.

And then I thought I'd had the cool revelation of suddenly having a belief set or spiritual nature. One that involved Deity finally, after so many years of none in my life. I felt it was Ok, just accept all that couldn't be answered and why it happened upon faith. And I went along with that for awhile and then I suddenly had another epiphany.

I had done what I've explained in my opening post here. I had assigned a Deity to all that I couldn't explain, for no other reason than I couldn't explain it. It made no difference whether I had a picture of a beautiful woman in a white gown, or an old grandfatherly dude with a white beard, believed in an actual entity; I had decieved my common sense and simple logic. I had had the vain belief that just because I couldn't understand everything I was still meant to so I could handily put everything in order by assigning it to a pretend being. I began to wonder if i'd sacrificed the one thing I felt was truly important to believe in, that was myself, and perhaps others around me.

Messenger, I forgot one thing back there: I am also ordained by the Spiritual Humanists as well as ULC. (Have been for a couple of years. Also by The Church of the Seven Planes.) I have to look, but you mentioned something like you'd like to see how an Atheist answers certain questions? They have a very, very large forum at Spiritual Humanists, one can see exactly how all questions are answered by Atheists there, but it generally comes down to science and logic. I'm not certain but I think they're posted in our links section.

[cigattIcTot]

Very good! I have always understood that everyone must walk his/her own path. It matters not if it makes sense to others, it must make sense to us.

Hermano Luis

[Fertionbratte]

Why ask why? To be decisive about putting an end to doubt, question or uncertainity with regard to purpose, reason, cause, intention, justification or motive.

The cause or intention underlying a given action or situation often brings closure and settlement.

In mentality and emotionality we are comprised of our knowledge; Ever searching for more feeling and information to help us grow. If we didn't have knowledge we wouldn't have Love. If we don't add to our knowledge we stagnate. Stagnant love is like mold; it tastes funny and can make you sick.

Thus, asking why is also to help complete the self. If we didn't ask ourselves why someone loves us, we wouldn't know what to continue to do to stay in loving relationships with them.

One doesn't have to worship God and Goddess to be Pagan.

I've written it here on the boards before but will put it here again:
Everything in nature has a natural cause, and knowledge of nature's laws helps to explain every cause and effect.

If one can't feel loved by something greater than themself then they have no standpoint with which to exude their love back to the Universe. Love is power. Deities love their devotees. The love They exude is heartfelt and sincere. A deity cares for, respects, takes responsibility for and has much knowledge of an underling. To love them back takes care, respect, responsibility and knowledge. When these aspects of love are disregarded it stagnates. One of the prime laws of nature is that a loving being doesn't want the loved to fail to progress or develop. This doesn't require worship. But it does require enthusiasm.

[GaxyGroordrep]

Rakehel seems pretty calm to me. Congratulations on your decision.

[lYVgWWcP]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Cthulhu
Well, to me, agnostic is a belief in the spiritual nature of the universe without gods/goddesses. Gnostics can believe in gods.

I guess that makes me agnostic, sort of. I believe in a devine universal spirit, but not a conscious God or Goddess. More than anything I believe in LOVE! I don't know if there is a conscious fofce in the universe that is lvoe and keeps us all together, I rather hope so. Not totally sure of much these days. But I do believe in the Power of love in my life.

My love for my family, for my home, for "mother earth". I believe that if enough of us spend our love on helping ourselves and others, and our planet, we will make a difference. That is what I hope for the most. I want to believe in a higher, Divine Spirit, and do a lot of the time. But mostly I just believe in the power of Love. (Maybe that is the Divine Spirit?)

This is something I can feel, in some ways I can see in the eyes of my husband and kids, touch in their arms, etc. So this is my most guiding principal. There could be worse...I've sort of dapted Cthulhu's "agnostic witch". I'm a hedge witch, it means something different to me than wicca. It's all good.

Thank you Rake, you helped me clarify things that I've been dealing with but didn't know how to express. I love you and Connie for all you've shared and tought me over the many months I've been here.!

[Kuncher]

Quote:There could be worse...I've sort of dapted Cthulhu's "agnostic witch".

Watch out world! My influence is spreading!!!!! I'm glad to be a part of your spiritual path! May you enjoy the rest of your journey!

[sportlife]

It is a really Agnostic Toltec Hedgewitch.

[KraskiNetu]

It is a really Agnostic Toltec Hedgewitch.

Phew!!! Say that 3 times fast!

[Gilowero]

It was hard enough to type it corresctly. but it really says who I am (today ) I reserve the right to be wrong about everything. Ain't it wonderful?

[ThekvandoVideo]

This is good. You have become what you truly are. Enjoy the awakening. Enjoy the freedom. Enjoy the self empowerment.

Jonathan Lobl

[Amirmsheesk]

This thread has gone cold. Has it all been said?

[letittbe]

This thread has gone cold. Has it all been said?

Don't know if all has been said. The thread is titled "Agnostic" but yet the opening post suggested Atheism.

Can't say "I'm not sure there is one" and then state that all of them are created in the mind of man.

An Agnostic is just being careful just in case there really is a god.