[cauddyVab]

You know from our Pms now Kelly that it is not so much about anger, I hope. And you mentioned this other possible spiritual path.

I'll respond to these well made posts when I return, maybe by this weekend. Know though that most of what I've been saying here is true of my feelings, even if I'm not able to put it all into the words that make it sound as logical to you all as it appears to me. Let's face it, any discussion on any type of spirituality or path and trying to examine them can often get complicated; yes, partly complicated by our own minds, but complicated none the less.

I know now that it isn't about anger, and will share my hubby's views, I find them interesting and sometimes funny; not the mean kind of funny, the funny where we're both , we do the same with my beliefs, too. No matter what, discovering and discussing spiritual beliefs is complicated. Sometimes it is difficult to understand where another person is coming from because you don't understand the whole of the person.

[Domovoy]

I will now be able to give this particular forum the attention it deserves. I can speak with a viewpoint. And it's mine and I expect no one to feel the need to accept it.

I have decided to renounce my Pagan path, it just wasn't working. I will not even use an un-dedication ritual, it will make absolutely no difference to the so-called Goddess of myth and will cause me no harm turning my back on Her. I am taking the stance that there may or may not be a Deity, male or female, but their existence hasn't been able to be proven one way or the other, never will be, and belief is simple blind faith, wishful thinking again, with no rationality.

"Talking" with Them is wishful thinking, they don't really answer back or show signs, that's just fantasy. They have no real existence, regardless of any other laws or perceptions. Everything just is, and is a direct correlation of our vain need in thinking that we are capable of understanding everything as humans, that we even have that right or the brain size. We have no real need to understand "it all," it exists without us.

IMHO, Deities were created by people at one time, complete inventions of myth to help explain what remains unknown. People who were either afraid that they couldn't know all the answers through some sort of empirical evidence, or were afraid of death. It's all a sham, from buying that new pentacle or cross, holy text, robe, or performing ceremonial rituals. These all serve the need of making people feel like they're doing something to connect to something outside themselves, when if they want to connect to the Universe they can do so just by being alive and breathing. No prayers, salutations, acknowledgement to deities were ever needed.

In the words of George Harrison: "life goes on within you and without you." I can give up roaming from one spirituality to the next, the final results will be the same everytime. There is nothing after death.

[xqkAY7Lg]

Your right.

I have no need to be adverse here, I'm guessing this truly works for you and I'm truly glad that you have come home to a place that suits your needs.

I would love to communicate on this subject with you, I am curious about what goes on for you when you make this proclamation.

[Derrida]

See my PM

UncleMike

[paralelogram]

Each of us must take our own path, and make sense of things as they happen to each of us. That isn't always happen easily.

For me, personally, I MUST believe that there is more out there than the things we see in our day to day lives. I have been, and will return to, the spirit realm. I have seen and communicated with spirits. I have seen the results of their interventions, numerous times. I have seen the emptiness that has occurred when they have been ignored. Do the presence of spirits dictate that there must be a deity or deities? No, but their awareness far exceeds our own, and THEY believe in such. That doesn't mean that each person is at a place in their path that they can believe in a Deity. Further, it doesn't mean that those who do believe, can find themselves to love the Deity.

On the other hand, I can only breath so long before my knowledge and intelligence will tell me that there is oxygen in the air that allows me to do so. But I can't see the oxygen. Knowledge and intelligence tells me sooner or later that walking out into traffic could lead to death. Yet I've never experienced it. Knowledge and intelligence has taught me that happiness is healthier than depression, yet I've not died (yet) from depression. Knowledge and intelligence has showed me that another persons beliefs are no better nor no worse than my own, yet I have not lived another person's life. Do I have all the answers? No...if I did, I would BE the deity. But there are too many things that convince me day by day that there must be a deity. I believe that sooner or later, every thinking and feeling person will come to the same conclusion. Maybe that is hopeful thinking, based only on my experiences. I am only 50, only a third of the way through my life on work, so it is entirely that I am looking at it from the aspect of my "childhood". But if I'm wrong, what harm? If I felt the other way, and I'm wrong, THEN what harm? I think it is pretty clear that being wrong one way would make no difference at all, but being wrong the other way would be a great way to rob myself of happiness and prevent me from helping others in good and valid ways. So I'll continue believing.

[Ccddfergt]

I used to think the same thing about priests/leaders, etc.

A bunch of cavemen were sitting around one day and wondered how they could get others to give them stuff, do their hunting....

Let's tell the people we can talk to the gods and arrange favorable treatment. (maybe they made up the gods too).

In exchange you need to feed us, clothe us, house us, etc. And thus the biggest scam in history was started.

[Rithlilky]

Your right.

I have no need to be adverse here, I'm guessing this truly works for you and I'm truly glad that you have come home to a place that suits your needs.

I would love to communicate on this subject with you, I am curious about what goes on for you when you make this proclamation.

Don't get me wrong, this is not necessairly a "happy" conclusion. I wanted to believe there was a lady in a white robe or a dude with horns and a beard. But it's just not true. I can't hold it, see it, touch it, hear it, but I can do all of those things with myself and other things in the world around me. Those things are real.

All that went on for me was the conclusion itself after having mulled it over for years. It's all phony and done for mostly frightened people. Why are we so afraid of possibly knowing that when we die there is nothing else? Think about all of the things that act relieves us from. Think of the nothing to ever know or think again, that's salvation for the human mind and body. (and maybe spirit, that's a whole other topic about silly notions.) No greed, war, avarice, infedelity. It's all finally over.

Hell, if nothing else, think of the pure economics of it: no more money spent on herbs and oils, odd spiritual jewlery, "light" festivals like we have here where a bunch of the unenlightened and uninformed go and pay $35 a half hour to someone who couldn't heal them or predict their future any better than someone they met on the street. It seems to me that it's pure silliness not to think that we aren't born with and carry what we need in the way of spirituality. It's not going to come from a book, a priest or minister, sitting there chanting "ohm." It comes from us and there is no third party involved.

It's about us, and the fact that we don't know how all the events of our life finally measured up in the end is not important. It's the great last laugh: we won't be there to know about it anyway. "Here" is the all. The gratifications or good deeds that we can do or feel like doing today are all that matters. Ans what a bunch of vain people, to me, to think otherwise.

[conurgenceDen]

Each of us must take our own path, and make sense of things as they happen to each of us. That isn't always happen easily.

For me, personally, I MUST believe that there is more out there than the things we see in our day to day lives. I have been, and will return to, the spirit realm. I have seen and communicated with spirits. I have seen the results of their interventions, numerous times. I have seen the emptiness that has occurred when they have been ignored. Do the presence of spirits dictate that there must be a deity or deities? No, but their awareness far exceeds our own, and THEY believe in such. That doesn't mean that each person is at a place in their path that they can believe in a Deity. Further, it doesn't mean that those who do believe, can find themselves to love the Deity.

On the other hand, I can only breath so long before my knowledge and intelligence will tell me that there is oxygen in the air that allows me to do so. But I can't see the oxygen. Knowledge and intelligence tells me sooner or later that walking out into traffic could lead to death. Yet I've never experienced it. Knowledge and intelligence has taught me that happiness is healthier than depression, yet I've not died (yet) from depression. Knowledge and intelligence has showed me that another persons beliefs are no better nor no worse than my own, yet I have not lived another person's life. Do I have all the answers? No...if I did, I would BE the deity. But there are too many things that convince me day by day that there must be a deity. I believe that sooner or later, every thinking and feeling person will come to the same conclusion. Maybe that is hopeful thinking, based only on my experiences. I am only 50, only a third of the way through my life on work, so it is entirely that I am looking at it from the aspect of my "childhood". But if I'm wrong, what harm? If I felt the other way, and I'm wrong, THEN what harm? I think it is pretty clear that being wrong one way would make no difference at all, but being wrong the other way would be a great way to rob myself of happiness and prevent me from helping others in good and valid ways. So I'll continue believing.

I would not ask you to stop believing what you believe Rex. But even our beliefs change, what once seemed reasonable and logical, was even felt inside, becomes a puff of smoke one day and we create a new belief. Lest we give up all growth for ourselves as human beings, develop our minds unfettered from the false hopes of religious and spiritual paths.

For me, it's not real. Many years ago I was more or less a happy agnostic when I first came here. I went through this pagan stuff, thinking I was finally connecting with my spiritual side. I realized that it was all inside me already, no intervention from a named religion or spirituality was ever needed. My spirit is me, and the recognition of that comes only from what my mind conveys to me. The total value of the deeds I do and life I lived will be assessed by others in the end, I won't be there having the slightest inkling about what they thought about it all. What I do for me is all that is important, especially surviving in a world that seems to be hellbent on becoming uglier and uglier each year.

[Peter Hill]

I used to think the same thing about priests/leaders, etc.

A bunch of cavemen were sitting around one day and wondered how they could get others to give them stuff, do their hunting....

Let's tell the people we can talk to the gods and arrange favorable treatment. (maybe they made up the gods too).

In exchange you need to feed us, clothe us, house us, etc. And thus the biggest scam in history was started.

Or the dark con of man as it's been labelled. It's all mythology, there are no gods or goddesses besides what each invidual, or maybe groups of individuals create. And it's all done to make someone think that they "need." It's been a thing of one group exercising power over another since time began.

Yeah, they sat around in their loinclothes or whatever, trying to understand different things in nature around them. They had no answers, so fantasy beings were created to explain what was unanswerable. It gave some comfort. The concept that we actually did more than rot in the ground once we were dead gave greater comfort.

[Unwiseevove]

Rake, I understand that people change, and that you've changed, and that you must do what you need to. But you are coming across kinda angry, are you? And if you are why?

Just concerned about you.

[UtidaBrar]

I have considered myself an Agnostic Hindu for years now.

Somewhere inside me I kind of believe there must be some controlling power. The universe just seems too complex to have been accident of nature. But I can not touch, feel, communicate with anyone 'out there'. So I honestly can't believe in it/him/her/them/me/you/us.

I'm pretty sure the sun will rise tomorrow but I won't make you any promises. That's just the way I am.

I do think there probably is more to the journey after we leave this body. If I thought there was no power, nothing after death etc.. I would have to consider myself Atheist. I see a distinction between Atheist and Agnostic.

Agnostic is Greek, a-meaning without, gnosis-meaning knowledge. So it literally means without knowledge.

I can not prove there is a god or spirit. But I also can not disprove it. So I will stay out of the debate. Live well, do what is right. That should be enough, whether there is a god or not.

[Catieliecutty]

I would not ask you to stop believing what you believe Rex. But even our beliefs change, what once seemed reasonable and logical, was even felt inside, becomes a puff of smoke one day and we create a new belief. Lest we give up all growth for ourselves as human beings, develop our minds unfettered from the false hopes of religious and spiritual paths.

For me, it's not real. Many years ago I was more or less a happy agnostic when I first came here. I went through this pagan stuff, thinking I was finally connecting with my spiritual side. I realized that it was all inside me already, no intervention from a named religion or spirituality was ever needed. My spirit is me, and the recognition of that comes only from what my mind conveys to me. The total value of the deeds I do and life I lived will be assessed by others in the end, I won't be there having the slightest inkling about what they thought about it all. What I do for me is all that is important, especially surviving in a world that seems to be hellbent on becoming uglier and uglier each year.

My beliefs do change. Life is dynamic, so my beliefs are as well. But the longer I live, and the more things I experience, the stronger those beliefs become, though there are minor changes in the beliefs themselves.

Perhaps it would be helpful to explain some, but not by any means all, of those experiences.

A neighbor, elderly lady, became sick. She was taken to the hospital and diagnosed with extreme terminal cancer, and given a couple months to live. Her stomach and liver were virtually gone. A prayer team was set up to pray for her. Though she was very spiritual, and a very, very good person because of that belief, she knew nothing at all about it, nor did her family at that point. Her condition steadily deteriorated until the prayer team was assembled. Then, seemingly miraculously, as people started praying for her, she started recovering. Doctors had no explanation. In less than a month, she was released from the hospital. In less than six, her stomach was performing properly and her liver was regenerating, as livers do. About a year after this (and she still did not know that anyone had prayed for her), she told me that she was laying there and suddenly felt a calm, loving presence. She suddenly knew she was going to be okay. Ramona passed away fifteen years ago, of old age, and she was healthy at that time. If there was no deity, why would she recover with mere prayer, without even knowing that the prayer was given?

Another case was my mother. Despite the fact that my grandmother was a true Christian, living the life rather than merely talking about it, my mom didn't believe in God. She felt that things just happened because they happened, nothing more. She'd lost family members, and thought that there couldn't be a God if her loved ones had died like that. Then she came across a time when she was set to lose everything. She was a real estate salesman and hadn't made a sale in six months. All the bills, power, water, house payment, car payment, were overdue and subject to being turned off or closed out. She did something extraordinary...she prayed to God for help. Very unexpectedly, a property that was "unsellable" was sold, producing almost exactly the amount necessary to pay the bills.

Another case; a man came to me who had severe problems. His health was failing, and everything, financially, was falling down around him. His wife had left him, his kids hated him, he owed money to the IRS, he had no place to stay, and he was in danger of losing his job. I accepted the case, and contacted my guide. She told me that his soul was damaged, and that was a cause of the problem. I won't go into the details, but I went deeper into the spirit realm than I'd ever been. I was scared, and I didn't know what I was doing. But I did what I could. Again, I won't go into details, but I did what I had to, with the help of my spirit guide. The man ended up reconciling with his wife, he was able to put his kids through school, and they now think very highly of him, he not only kept his job, he was promoted, and the IRS contacted him to let him know that THEY had made a mistake and actually owed him money.

This is just three of probably 30-40 instances that show me that there IS someone greater than us, out there and listening. Do they always answer? Yes they do. But the answer comes in three ways: Yes, No, and Not now. But even when the answer is no, there is a very good reason for it, which may not be apparent for some time.

I've been cynical in the past, but I'm not any longer. Too much has happened and continues to happen.

[qQVXpYM6]

Don't get me wrong, this is not necessairly a "happy" conclusion. I wanted to believe there was a lady in a white robe or a dude with horns and a beard. But it's just not true. I can't hold it, see it, touch it, hear it, but I can do all of those things with myself and other things in the world around me. Those things are real.

All that went on for me was the conclusion itself after having mulled it over for years. It's all phony and done for mostly frightened people. Why are we so afraid of possibly knowing that when we die there is nothing else? Think about all of the things that act relieves us from. Think of the nothing to ever know or think again, that's salvation for the human mind and body. (and maybe spirit, that's a whole other topic about silly notions.) No greed, war, avarice, infedelity. It's all finally over.

Hell, if nothing else, think of the pure economics of it: no more money spent on herbs and oils, odd spiritual jewlery, "light" festivals like we have here where a bunch of the unenlightened and uninformed go and pay $35 a half hour to someone who couldn't heal them or predict their future any better than someone they met on the street. It seems to me that it's pure silliness not to think that we aren't born with and carry what we need in the way of spirituality. It's not going to come from a book, a priest or minister, sitting there chanting "ohm." It comes from us and there is no third party involved.

It's about us, and the fact that we don't know how all the events of our life finally measured up in the end is not important. It's the great last laugh: we won't be there to know about it anyway. "Here" is the all. The gratifications or good deeds that we can do or feel like doing today are all that matters. Ans what a bunch of vain people, to me, to think otherwise.

Concurred with the purchase frenzy...at the time that these thoughts were evolved the materials were readily available, but we have been cohearsed into thinking that others have to gather the materials that we need for life and we have to work our asses off so that they keep collecting those addictions, that we could very well collect ourselves.

Now on the subject of nothing beyond, I will have to disagree with you there. I've experienced energy existence beyond the body that we can "touch" and I don't reccomend that you wish to find this experience yourself..could be what your accident was all about...next time it may not be such a gentle nudge.

I have had some very hard life lessons, of which I manifested, so I tread lightly when I wish upon that which I cannot see...because it has bonked me time and time again.

I don't feel the need to push you in any direction Rake, I don't think any of us do...it is your destiny..what is it that you wish to do with the time you have here? That is the real question...that is the physical touching part...that is what you truly seek...Yes?

[wmhardware]

Rake, I understand that people change, and that you've changed, and that you must do what you need to. But you are coming across kinda angry, are you? And if you are why?

Just concerned about you.

You know from our Pms now Kelly that it is not so much about anger, I hope. And you mentioned this other possible spiritual path.

I'll respond to these well made posts when I return, maybe by this weekend. Know though that most of what I've been saying here is true of my feelings, even if I'm not able to put it all into the words that make it sound as logical to you all as it appears to me. Let's face it, any discussion on any type of spirituality or path and trying to examine them can often get complicated; yes, partly complicated by our own minds, but complicated none the less.

[atmowasia]

Welcome back indoors Rake.

Now you can start believing in yourself.

[Tarrccrys]

Rake, I fully support your change or release of your belief. If there was a certainty then there wouldn't be all the different diverse paths available. You are doing what your heart and mind desires. By coming out and stating exactly what you decide your path to be you are coming to terms with it and are inviting the feedback you are receiving. This is a good thing, I do not know how many others have the same beliefs, but maybe this will allow others to realize that they are not alone.

Walk the path you desire, not what you think others want you to do.

[Duaceanceksm]

Rake,

I completely understand and support your decision. My own spiritual path has been a very twisted road. Here's the truth as it applies to me.

1. All people with a spiritual path worship the same creative force in the universe.

2. The most holy and sacred act any one person can do is to learn to walk in the shoes of another.


I am an agnostic wiccan. The god and goddess, for me, merely represent the dual aspects of the universe. They are a handle for my mind to grasp when conversing with everything around me, without them the whole complexity of the universe has a tendency to overwhelm my consciousness and I lose track in the ritual I'm performing. As for speaking to the deities, I don't see it as speaking to entities out there wrapped in ethereal fogs and glowing auras. I'm merely talking to the unconscious aspect of my being. The magick I perform is primarily to improve myself, make me a better person by allowing positive flows of energy waft (or sometimes flood!) through my psyche.

I see your decision as just one more step down the road you travel. Step out bravely brother, you have many that will help as much as they can.

[tsovimnpb]

I've waited to post, because I wanted to watch this thread unravel.

First and foremost: Welcome Home Rakehel. We've been waiting.

Second, I'd like to add to what Emalpaiz said: "It matters not if it makes sense to others", nor to ourselves. In fact, it dosen't matter at all.
That is another reason why I am agnostic. Not because I don't know, not because I can't know, but because I don't care.

BECAUSE: (yes, I'm yelling....joo wanna fite aboud dit??? LOL )
The truth is the truth, regardless of our ability to catalog it, understand it, believe in it, create fairy tales around it, make it our own, or alter it to fit our selfish insane pants-wearing hairless monkey agandas. If there is a 'God', there is a 'God', regardless of our ability to understand it, or how we choose to see it. If not, then there isn't. It's that simple.
There is an (old) Zenarchist saying, a known simple truth: "Cataloged, numbered, indexed. DEAD"

What is important, as you've already said, is what you're gonna do about it. Finding a way to live your life, and living it. Part of living a life is finding a way to live.

Lastly, a word of warning. Not because I'm trying to make anyone doubt themselves, but because anything, taken to far, can lead you astray.

"Common Sense is what tells you the world is flat."

That means: do not allow your mind to make all of your judgements. Do not allow your heart to guide you everywhere. The two must work in unison, and you MUST hold the reins. Left unchecked, you run the risk of becoming a lunatic, or a 'Holy Man'.... Even lunatics are right some of the time. Even Liars tell the truth. Even Holy Men sin.
Even the best idea, if not thought out, is a bad idea.

Too many people in this world think they KNOW. None do. Too many people are willing to kill or die for the opinions of egocentric, crazy primates. Themselves.

All statements made about "god", are purely opinion. Opinion based upon subjective deductions about subjective experiences.


Bottom line: It Dosen't Matter.
Be who you are, do what you do, believe what you believe.

We're all probably wrong anyway....
Regardless of what you believe, most of the world disagrees with you.

[DavidShreder]

Rake,

I completely understand and support your decision. My own spiritual path has been a very twisted road. Here's the truth as it applies to me.

1. All people with a spiritual path worship the same creative force in the universe.

2. The most holy and sacred act any one person can do is to learn to walk in the shoes of another.


I am an agnostic wiccan. The god and goddess, for me, merely represent the dual aspects of the universe. They are a handle for my mind to grasp when conversing with everything around me, without them the whole complexity of the universe has a tendency to overwhelm my consciousness and I lose track in the ritual I'm performing. As for speaking to the deities, I don't see it as speaking to entities out there wrapped in ethereal fogs and glowing auras. I'm merely talking to the unconscious aspect of my being. The magick I perform is primarily to improve myself, make me a better person by allowing positive flows of energy waft (or sometimes flood!) through my psyche.

I see your decision as just one more step down the road you travel. Step out bravely brother, you have many that will help as much as they can.

Sorry to be so late returning here:

You may have stated what could be the most I can hope for GC: "Agnostic Wiccan." The terms god and goddess may only be words I'll ever use to sum up everything I don't understand or can explain into a neat little package. It's sort of a way to make discussions about Life and the Universe simpler to engage in with others.

[espenijij]

Lastly, a word of warning. Not because I'm trying to make anyone doubt themselves, but because anything, taken to far, can lead you astray.

"Common Sense is what tells you the world is flat."

That means: do not allow your mind to make all of your judgements. Do not allow your heart to guide you everywhere. The two must work in unison, and you MUST hold the reins. Left unchecked, you run the risk of becoming a lunatic, or a 'Holy Man'.... Even lunatics are right some of the time. Even Liars tell the truth. Even Holy Men sin.
Even the best idea, if not thought out, is a bad idea.

Too many people in this world think they KNOW. None do. Too many people are willing to kill or die for the opinions of egocentric, crazy primates. Themselves.

All statements made about "god", are purely opinion. Opinion based upon subjective deductions about subjective experiences.


Bottom line: It Dosen't Matter.
Be who you are, do what you do, believe what you believe.

We're all probably wrong anyway....
Regardless of what you believe, most of the world disagrees with you. If these are not already the tenets of Discordianism, than they may be the basis for a new spirituality that others might follow. I'd probably just throw in a few from Douglas Adams like "anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen," to round it all out.