[Poothevokprot]

I will give two examples of evidence the evidence I accept is the first kind evidence in science. The second kind is what I think JimBob will attempt to argue is valid for proving a claim. Correct me if I am wrong JimBob.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence

In scientific research evidence is accumulated through observations of phenomena that occur in the natural world, or which are created as experiments in a laboratory. Scientific evidence usually goes towards supporting or rejecting a hypothesis.

One must always remember that the burden of proof is on the person making this positive claim. Within science, this translates to the burden resting on presenters of a papers, in which the presenter argues for their specific findings. This paper is placed before a panel of judges where the presenter must defend the thesis against all challenges.

When evidence is contradictory to predicted expectations, the evidence and the ways of making it are often closely scrutinized (see experimenter's regress) and only at the end of this process the hypothesis is rejected: this can be referred to as 'refutation of the hypothesis'. The rules for evidence used by science are collected systematically in an attempt to avoid the bias inherent to anecdotal evidence: nonetheless even anecdotal evidence is enough to reject a theory incompatible with that evidence, if there are sufficient repeated examples.

This is part of the scientific method that says if you make a claim you have to prove this claim with repeatable, controlled tests that anyone can reproduce.

Personal experience:

From - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_experience

The bold is mine.

An early belief of some philosophers of Ancient Greece was that the mind was like a recording device and simply kept somehow-objective records of what the senses experienced. This was believed in the Western world into the 20th century until cognitive psychology experiments decisively proved that it was not true, and that many events were simply filled in by the mind, based on what "should be". This among other things explained why eyewitness accounts of events often were so widely varied.

In Ancient Rome it was believed that personal experience was part of some divine or species-wide collective experience. This gave rise to notions of racial memory, national mission, and such notions as racism and patriotism. It was likely easier to create political movements and military morale with such notions, than a strictly personal idea of experience. Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell were notable investigators of these ideas of collective experience in the 20th century.

During The Enlightenment, there was rigorous investigation of these ideas. Immanuel Kant noted that it was only possible to explain "experience and its objects" as a consequence of each other: either experience makes those objects possible, or those objects make experience possible. This is seen today as dualism, and denying the possibility of a third thing making both experience and whatever reality its objects have, both possible. That thing could be a more universal cognition, as proposed in some versions of Christianity or Gaia philosophy.


Reading the above it is easy to see why personal experience is not considered 'good' evidence by skeptics or science. The abbility of the brain to see patterns in random data is well known just look at the clouds some time. Feelings fall under the same restrants.

Intuition and feelings can lead us to search for the answers but only reproducable facts can show us the truth or show us where we are just imposing our desires.

[Grewlybreekly]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for starting this. Hopefully it will lead to an interesting discussion.

To Part 1. Scientific Method. I totally agree. That is the commonly accepted manner in which a hypothesis develops into scientific evidence.

To Part 2. Evidence obtained through experience. I don't entirely agree with what is proposed.

First, to the Jung theory of "Collective Subconscious". It has been a long time since I have read on this but basically, as Jung presented it, I do have my opinions. I think that what Jung was referring to can be explained through genetics. We enherit genetic 'knowledge' (this word is used very loosely) from both our parents. I think I can say that in much part our genetics determine how well our mental facilities will operate.

But, as I am a Taoist and I do hold to the concept of Chi, I will suggest that Chi energy is constantly permiating all things. This energy holds information. This is the concept I use to support what I consider to be 'intuitive knowledge' and 'inspiration'. Can I prove this? Absolutely Not! So this is something that is outside the realm of science.

So, to the last part. That is, obtaining evidence through experience.

Let's use a simple example. I place my hand on a burner of my stove and I burn my hand. I say, "The stove is hot." Okay. At this point we have an opinion of relativity (and me with a blister on my hand).

So I look at the stove and think I should never touch the stove again. But then I ask myself, "Is the stove always hot?" Knowing the little bit I do know about electricity it think, "The burner of the stove is only hot when energy is applied to the burner." This is my hypothesis.

So I make sure all burners of the stove are in the "Off" position and wait a while. I touch the stove at various locations and find that all surfaces are approximately 'room temperature'. No single area is hotter than any other.

At this point I would use the scientific method to prove my hypothesis. The evidence was obtained from my personal experience - the blister on my hand. My hypothesis was formed as a process of thought from my experience. The scientific method supported my hypothesis. I then proposed a theory - "A person will burn their hand if it is placed on a burner of a stove when energy has been applied to the burner and the burner is operating properly" After repeatedly testing my theory (really I'm not stupid enough to constantly place my hand on a hot burner) I suggest that my theory is now a "fact" as each test supported my theory 100%.

A note. I was impressed by a statement Carl Sagan made in one of his programs in the "Cosmos" series. He said, "Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact." I think that there is a point in time where it is possible to make such statements if a theory has been tested repeatedly and the results support the theory 100% of the time. (Of course, we need to remain open-minded so that if there is ever a violation of the theory we must re-think our understanding.)

And so, to anything beyond the physical universe as we can currently detect and define it, no, there is no way to prove anything that cannot be established through the process of the scientific method. We cannot prove the existence of a God or gods. But then, we cannot disprove their existence either. Just as I cannot prove the effects Chi might have on 'things' in the universe. But then, it cannot be disproven either.

It's someone else's turn to speak.

Peace & Love!

[NumStulpata]

Your analogy of the stove is a good analogy of the scientific process and exactly the kind of thing that should be done with any experience.

However all to often it goes something like this...

I burn my hand on the stove just after I fried an egg in butter. I immediatly take this as a sign that the egg god is angry. I cook the next egg in oil and behold I am not burned. I take this new knowldge out into the world as evidence that eggs should always be cooked in oil if you cook them in butter you will burn yourself or your house down.

But, as I am a Taoist and I do hold to the concept of Chi, I will suggest that Chi energy is constantly permiating all things. This energy holds information. This is the concept I use to support what I consider to be 'intuitive knowledge' and 'inspiration'. Can I prove this? Absolutely Not! So this is something that is outside the realm of science

Here you are making a statement about the nature of the universe and how it works I suggest it is very much in the realm of science. You have walked boldly into the realm of the natural and therefore should be required to present your evidence just like any other claim. Feelings of something 'bigger' then oneself and the perception of patterns can be a starting point but do not constitute evidence.

All I am really saying is you can't present 'feelings' and 'I know it to be true because the universe reveiled it to me in a flock of geese' as evidence.

Sagan rocked for an old hippy

[slowlexrese]

I burn my hand on the stove just after I fried an egg in butter. I immediatly take this as a sign that the egg god is angry. I cook the next egg in oil and behold I am not burned. I take this new knowldge out into the world as evidence that eggs should always be cooked in oil if you cook them in butter you will burn yourself or your house down.

But, as I am a Taoist and I do hold to the concept of Chi, I will suggest that Chi energy is constantly permiating all things. This energy holds information. This is the concept I use to support what I consider to be 'intuitive knowledge' and 'inspiration'. Can I prove this? Absolutely Not! So this is something that is outside the realm of science

Here you are making a statement about the nature of the universe and how it works I suggest it is very much in the realm of science. You have walked boldly into the realm of the natural and therefore should be required to present your evidence just like any other claim. Feelings of something 'bigger' then oneself and the perception of patterns can be a starting point but do not constitute evidence.

All I am really saying is you can't present 'feelings' and 'I know it to be true because the universe reveiled it to me in a flock of geese' as evidence.

Sagan rocked for an old hippy

Hi Ken,

Your egg analogy is a good example of superstition formation. (No, I am not going to say ... and religion formation. I'm not walking on those hot coals.)

Okay. To Chi. In my mind and in my understanding from my readings of Taoism and Science, Chi is what science is currently calling "Dark Energy". Science cannot yet explain "Dark Energy" or "Dark Matter" but they are convinced that it exists so they are spending millions of dollars in an effort to prove its existence.

I accept the Big Bang theory. At one point, prior to time, the potential for everything that exists today existed in a state of Oneness. This is consistent with Taoist philosophy. Then something happened. Science calls it the Big Bang. Taoism says One gave birth to Two (Chi and potential matter). Science says gases and energy. Then follows the formation of matter. The same in Taoism and Science.

Science says matter is created and then is destroyed - Taoism says the same thing.

Although the word "Tao" can be translated as "God" it is normally translated as One or Oneness, or "The Way" or path.

Taoist philosophy does not say Tao created Heaven and Earth. It says Tao became Heaven and Earth. Why did it become Heaven and Earth? Because it was only natural (Tzujan) for it to do so. Note the importance of "Natural".

Now, there are people who are called religious Taoist. These folks personify Tao as God. And, of course, there are many other religions that personify God and gods.

Anyhow, as soon as science figures out what Dark Energy is I am sure there will still be no conflict between the scientific explanation and my understanding of Chi. But then, you never know for sure, absolutely.

Peace & Love!

[cigattIcTot]

There are many sciences but #1 is the one generally agreed upon by the vast majority of the scientific community and peoples in general ~smiles~.

I believe in Science, but I also know science fails in many ways. Proven science is cool...without that we wouldn't have computers or TV's or any number of devices based upon building blocks of technology ~smiles~. Much of technology taken out of time or context would be considered powerful magics ~smiles~.

Quantum Science shows us that we don't really know squat, and that physics was almost entirely wrong in many aspects.

It is the Quantum Space where my science resides. It is a personal science, a separate reality that I inflict upon no one unless asked ~smiles~ But I personally know what works for me in this universe, and I love being myself even with all my flaws.

I have proven my destructive magic as worked within a set amount of time, I have proven my benevolent magic & Sex magic do as well, but it is nothing that the majority would consider scientific ~chuckles~ That why it's called magic I guess and not science.

I believe we all have a separate reality, but in order for us to exist together in some form of sanity and harmony we had to create a concrete reality that all separate reality would be confined too for a duration ~smiles~.

[crycleascentyv]

Hi Ken,

Your egg analogy is a good example of superstition formation. (No, I am not going to say ... and religion formation. I'm not walking on those hot coals.)

Okay. To Chi. In my mind and in my understanding from my readings of Taoism and Science, Chi is what science is currently calling "Dark Energy". Science cannot yet explain "Dark Energy" or "Dark Matter" but they are convinced that it exists so they are spending millions of dollars in an effort to prove its existence.

I accept the Big Bang theory. At one point, prior to time, the potential for everything that exists today existed in a state of Oneness. This is consistent with Taoist philosophy. Then something happened. Science calls it the Big Bang. Taoism says One gave birth to Two (Chi and potential matter). Science says gases and energy. Then follows the formation of matter. The same in Taoism and Science.

Science says matter is created and then is destroyed - Taoism says the same thing.

Although the word "Tao" can be translated as "God" it is normally translated as One or Oneness, or "The Way" or path.

Taoist philosophy does not say Tao created Heaven and Earth. It says Tao became Heaven and Earth. Why did it become Heaven and Earth? Because it was only natural (Tzujan) for it to do so. Note the importance of "Natural".

Now, there are people who are called religious Taoist. These folks personify Tao as God. And, of course, there are many other religions that personify God and gods.

Anyhow, as soon as science figures out what Dark Energy is I am sure there will still be no conflict between the scientific explanation and my understanding of Chi. But then, you never know for sure, absolutely.

Peace & Love!

I guess the two questions then become.

1) Do you think this chi is directed by an intellegence? Yours or a cosmic intellegence.
2) What are the properties of chi ie.. how does it interact with the universe.

Also I am curious on rather taoism is evolving as our understanding grows or are you incorporating science into your personal taoism?... meh you know what I mean.

[Pheboasmabs]

There are many sciences but #1 is the one generally agreed upon by the vast majority of the scientific community and peoples in general ~smiles~.

I believe in Science, but I also know science fails in many ways. Proven science is cool...without that we wouldn't have computers or TV's or any number of devices based upon building blocks of technology ~smiles~. Much of technology taken out of time or context would be considered powerful magics ~smiles~.

Quantum Science shows us that we don't really know squat, and that physics was almost entirely wrong in many aspects.

It is the Quantum Space where my science resides. It is a personal science, a separate reality that I inflict upon no one unless asked ~smiles~ But I personally know what works for me in this universe, and I love being myself even with all my flaws.

I have proven my destructive magic as worked within a set amount of time, I have proven my benevolent magic & Sex magic do as well, but it is nothing that the majority would consider scientific ~chuckles~ That why it's called magic I guess and not science.

I believe we all have a separate reality, but in order for us to exist together in some form of sanity and harmony we had to create a concrete reality that all separate reality would be confined too for a duration ~smiles~.

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain aspects.

I don't see that physics has failed what you call failing is what science calls progress. When you invalidate a hypothisis you have still learned much. Even with quantium theory we have not had to toss out Newtonion physics which has been around hundreds of years.

I have said it before and will continue to say it everytime someone makes claims of supernatural...

Show that you can do as you claim in a controlled way.

Casting a spell of sexual attraction then getting 'lucky' sometime later is not proof of anything except you got laid

[konanoileaski]

Hi Op,

Like I always try to remember to say, "Whatever helps you through your life."

I don't believe in magic or any form of supernatural. But then I would never suggest that you should believe as I do.

I am glad that your belief is helping you through your life.

Peace & Love!

[cheapphenonline]

I guess the two questions then become.

1) Do you think this chi is directed by an intellegence? Yours or a cosmic intellegence.
2) What are the properties of chi ie.. how does it interact with the universe.

Also I am curious on rather taoism is evolving as our understanding grows or are you incorporating science into your personal taoism?... meh you know what I mean.

Hi Ken,

1) No. Every now and again someone will take me to a discussion of 'universal intelligence'. I do not accept that concept. However, my personal Chi can be concentrated so that I am able to do things (all natural, of course) that I would otherwise be incapable of doing. Most martial artists learn about Chi and how to concentrate their energy, both physical and mental.

2) Chi is pure energy. It is my understanding that energy contains information and this information can be transmitted via energy. In Taoism we are told to close all our senses from external influences, then to clear our mind (or brain), soul (subconscious mind or brain) and spirit (our personal Chi) of all thoughts. When we have done this the energy of Chi will enter our spirit and we will become aware of information we were unable to realize consciously. Basiclally, this is meditation.

Except to the human aspect of Chi it is not said how Chi interacts with the rest of the universe except that Chi permiates all things - passes through all things - like a radio wave and some other forms of energy (all forms being components of Chi).

Science is suggesting that Dark Energy is causing the universe to expand at an accelated rate. So perhaps Chi can also put force (momentum?) on solid objects.

Concerning your curiosity, I was reading Taoist texts before I became seriously involved in keeping abreast with scientific findings. In the introduction of one of the translations I read the author (translator) suggested that Taoism was the very philosophy that was totally compatable with science. This is because Taoism teaches the importance of the observation of Nature. This includes everything from the movement of the stars to the actions and reactions of animals, including humans. It is suggested that if you are observant you will be able to understand the processes in Nature and then you will know how to conduct your life in such a way so that it is preserved from non-natural death.

But yes, Taoist philosophy does change over time as a result of being able to better observe the processes in Nature more efficiently. And I would agree that it changes along with the changes in science because science is based upon observation just as Taoism is.

So, an admission. Taoism is based upon scientific observation. It is also very 'cause and effect' based. Two of the most beautiful things about Taoism are:

1) We have no tenants. We have no "Thou shalt not's". We do have, 'if you do this then that will probably happen'. We have freedom of choice but we are responsible for our actions. And, we are not required to subjugate ourself to any other being. (But we do revere Oneness.)

2) We can change our mind any time we become aware of new information (facts). Our philosophy grows as we become more aware.

Peace & Love!

[fapourfasiark]

My personal experiences, which are subjective, are not evidence. They are only my personal experiences. My personal experiences, which are objective, can be used as evidence. In order to qualify as an objective experience, the experience has to be something that can be replicated by others.

If I feel like I am falling, this is a subjective experience. If I actually fall, this is an objective experience.

I can not present my subjective experiences as evidence and expect others to accept my world view. It is not reasonable.

Jonathan Lobl

[SawbasyWrab]

Hi Jonathan,

While all that you said is true I suggest that my subjective experiences matter only to me and may not apply to any others. But I will hold to my subjective experiences as lessons for my future actions in life.

One thing I forgot to mention above regarding Taoism is that while I hold to the fact of evolution there is nothing in the original Taoist writings (Tao-Te Ching & Chuang Tzu) that says anything about evolution. I think that this is understandable.

Peace & Love!

[_tppga_]

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain aspects.

I don't see that physics has failed what you call failing is what science calls progress. When you invalidate a hypothisis you have still learned much. Even with quantium theory we have not had to toss out Newtonion physics which has been around hundreds of years.

I have said it before and will continue to say it everytime someone makes claims of supernatural...

Show that you can do as you claim in a controlled way.

Casting a spell of sexual attraction then getting 'lucky' sometime later is not proof of anything except you got laid

Good point KenC...something should always be learned even in failure! ~smiles~

Not too you but it is too me! And that is all that matters when it comes to personal science, which I believe was science #2 ~smiles~

I'm not trying to make you or anyone else believe that there is supernatural, I'm just saying I use both sciences, one is a true planar science and the other is a esoteric science ~chuckles~. I prescribe to both! And you can't stop me!!! muahahhaha ~chuckles~

I also find the throwing the word "TAOISM" around kind of funny because it has been made into somthing it really isn't by books, lectures, and everything else media. The word means "WAY" so I can show you the Tao of Cooking, the Tao of Blowing Noses, the Tao of defeating the IRS, but I know semantics are fun as well as philosophy, so I am just adding my two cents to the fray! ~chuckles~

I also understand the Tao to be "The Way" for many, kind of like an Asian Bible of sorts ~smiles~

[beth]

Good point KenC...something should always be learned even in failure! ~smiles~

Not too you but it is too me! And that is all that matters when it comes to personal science, which I believe was science #2 ~smiles~

I'm not trying to make you or anyone else believe that there is supernatural, I'm just saying I use both sciences, one is a true planar science and the other is a esoteric science ~chuckles~. I prescribe to both! And you can't stop me!!! muahahhaha ~chuckles~

I also find the throwing the word "TAOISM" around kind of funny because it has been made into somthing it really isn't by books, lectures, and everything else media. The word means "WAY" so I can show you the Tao of Cooking, the Tao of Blowing Noses, the Tao of defeating the IRS, but I know semantics are fun as well as philosophy, so I am just adding my two cents to the fray! ~chuckles~

I also understand the Tao to be "The Way" for many, kind of like an Asian Bible of sorts ~smiles~

Oh no I don't want to stop anyone from believing what ever they like. Only time I like to get all worked up is when people use their belief or should I say the belief of someone else in order to take advantage of them economicly/physicaly or mentaly.

You want to believe your magic works thats fine we would only have a problem if your telling some young gullable woman she is being attacked by dark forces and she needs you to cast 'protective' magic on her at the cost of $300... Then I have serious issues.

Or you wanted your special version of physics taught to young children without having to supply the same level of evidence as proper science.

Or you decided your supernatural friends wanted a specific group of people persicuted.

Otherwise no problem here

Though I still reserve the right to say 'prove it' in the instead of religion board

I am gathering from what I am learning of Taoism is that it is an evolving set of beliefs/tenets so anything written long ago that is at odds with what we now know is invalid or modifed to stay current. JimBob can correct me if I am wrong.

I must say so far in my studies Taoism, if they really do change their beliefs to conform with mankinds pool of amassed knowledge, is the most sensible belief system I have yet seen even more so.. in my opinion.. then buddhism.
.

[Dilangfh]

I also find the throwing the word "TAOISM" around kind of funny because it has been made into somthing it really isn't by books, lectures, and everything else media. The word means "WAY" so I can show you the Tao of Cooking, the Tao of Blowing Noses, the Tao of defeating the IRS, but I know semantics are fun as well as philosophy, so I am just adding my two cents to the fray! ~chuckles~

I also understand the Tao to be "The Way" for many, kind of like an Asian Bible of sorts ~smiles~

Hi OP,

The word "Tao" is used as both a noun and a verb in the Tao-Te Ching (The Taoist's bible). When used as a noun it is most correctly translated as "Creator" or "One" but also sometimes as "God". When used as a verb it is translated equally properly as "Path" or "Way", depending on its usage in a sentence.

Peace & Love!

[RgtrsKfR]

I am gathering from what I am learning of Taoism is that it is an evolving set of beliefs/tenets so anything written long ago that is at odds with what we now know is invalid or modifed to stay current. JimBob can correct me if I am wrong.

I must say so far in my studies Taoism, if they really do change their beliefs to conform with mankinds pool of amassed knowledge, is the most sensible belief system I have yet seen even more so.. in my opinion.. then buddhism.
.

Hi Ken,

No disagreement with what you have said. I did point out that observation is an important aspect of Taoism. It is to be understood that as we create better tools to observe Nature we will learn more of the processes and in this learning we might negate an understanding we had previously held.

Another important aspect is that we are told to be like water. This means flowing freely and with total flexibility. When we meet an obstacle we either go around it or we might wear it down to the point of no longer being an obstacle. Sometimes we even get totally blocked from flowing so then it is time to rest and regain our power until there is an opportunity to again flow freely.

Yes, those of us who understand what Lao Tzu was saying are a bunch of Nature nuts.

BTW He (Lao Tzu) actually spoke more about politics than any other subject but the way he presented his information one can easily take his political teachings and apply them to individual interaction with other people.

Another BTW When I was searching for a path I did a lot of reading of Buddhism. I felt pretty comforable with most aspects of it but then I started reading Taoist text and knew immediately that this is the proper path for me

Peace & Love!

[Abarricoss]

No,,you posted "Over the years, many an over zealous missionary has tried giving me "testimony" and "witness" in order to save my soul. If their subjective experience was not enough to change me -- why would my subjective experience be proof to anybody else?"

I'm asking proof of what?

How can someone else experience YOUR experience?

Rhetorical question. They never can.

Why bother trying to make it so?

And since the only thing you have is YOUR experience, ever, then what's the point in trying to change this?

Even if there were absolutes, each person's experience of that would be different. Always.

Just so. I want to take things one step further. I feel no compulsion at all to teach my own personal truth. I am content to let others have the freedom to find their own way. Neither do I think any body needs to be "saved."

Jonathan Lobl

[Patabeamn]

Hi Ken,

No disagreement with what you have said. I did point out that observation is an important aspect of Taoism. It is to be understood that as we create better tools to observe Nature we will learn more of the processes and in this learning we might negate an understanding we had previously held.

Another important aspect is that we are told to be like water. This means flowing freely and with total flexibility. When we meet an obstacle we either go around it or we might wear it down to the point of no longer being an obstacle. Sometimes we even get totally blocked from flowing so then it is time to rest and regain our power until there is an opportunity to again flow freely.

Yes, those of us who understand what Lao Tzu was saying are a bunch of Nature nuts.

BTW He (Lao Tzu) actually spoke more about politics than any other subject but the way he presented his information one can easily take his political teachings and apply them to individual interaction with other people.

Another BTW When I was searching for a path I did a lot of reading of Buddhism. I felt pretty comforable with most aspects of it but then I started reading Taoist text and knew immediately that this is the proper path for me

Peace & Love!

Over the years, many an over zealous missionary has tried giving me "testimony" and "witness" in order to save my soul. If their subjective experience was not enough to change me -- why would my subjective experience be proof to anybody else?

Jonathan Lobl

[9Goarveboofe]

Over the years, many an over zealous missionary has tried giving me "testimony" and "witness" in order to save my soul. If their subjective experience was not enough to change me -- why would my subjective experience be proof to anybody else?

Jonathan Lobl

Yeah, spirituality is a personal thing. You either get it (whatever) or you don't. Doesn't matter how many other people have experienced whatever.

You hold to your concepts and if they help you through your life (without harming others) then it is all good.

Peace & Love!

[connandoilee]

Proof of what?

Over the years, many an over zealous missionary has tried giving me "testimony" and "witness" in order to save my soul. If their subjective experience was not enough to change me -- why would my subjective experience be proof to anybody else?

Jonathan Lobl

[tobia]

Proof of what?

A serious response? This thread was about using subjective experience to prove a truth -- like the existence of God -- for one example.

A less serious response -- "Life, the Universe and everything."

Jonathan Lobl