[b7RKli4l]

Pete: I know someone who told me she thought it was funny how people can find a few bones and think dinosaurs existed.


maxx: It's hard to argue with that sort of thinking. They believe in supernatural beings without any verifiable evidence at all. That's an example of the sort of ossification of thought that comes from religious indoctrination. And yet we allow small children to be subjected to this.

[JonDopl]

I would like some clarification. what exactly do these billboards say? I do mean "exactly."


Jonathan Lobl

http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archiv...acramento.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts2936

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...REE/100319916#
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/...show-atheists/

[rojettafoxx]

Thought the one in Detroit was acutally quite clever. They covered up the word "Don't" in "Don't believe in God". LOL..at least it showed imagination and a bit of intelligence. It also shows that there were enough passers by that a lot of people saw the sign before it was vandalized. People remember written words more than spoken ones, remember? For it to take enough time for someone to come up with the clever idea of covering up the single letter to make it say something totally different, wouldn't that mean that there was plenty of time for motorist or pedestrians to see the original saying?

Now, vandalism of public property of any kind is wrong. Period. Against the law. Those athiests paid good money to put up that billboard. They had a First Amendment right to have it put there! There were guys who climbed up there, or worked on the bus sign, and put a lot of work into putting it up. They probably took great pride in their jobs and looked at it as a good days work.

So it was IMO wrong.

So...those guys (the people who had the billboards and bus ads put up) must understand how it felt for the indigenous peoples of Western Europe when their temples and sacred groves were destroyed by those who disagreed with their personal beliefs. They must know how Roman and Greek people felt when statues of their deities were toppled and crushed by intolerant people who thought they were right and everyone else was wrong. They must feel the same sort of fear and sadness that people of France and Germany felt when the Inquisition and its represenatives wiped out entire villages simply because they thought that they were evil or backward because they would not accept beliefs that were being forced upon them. They must have some sort of feeling of how it feels when one person or one group of people try to tell them how to raise their children or tell them that teaching them, or exposing them, to the beliefs of their parents and ancestors, is wrong and stupid. Those guys probably want to stand up and declare the obvious; that the vandalism was wrong and that they have the right to believe what they want to without the fear of someone doing such a cruel and terrible thing. Those guys probably want justice brought upon the people who committed such an act..

or at least tolerance

[fuslkdhfma]

Thought the one in Detroit was acutally quite clever. They covered up the word "Don't" in "Don't believe in God". LOL..at least it showed imagination and a bit of intelligence. It also shows that there were enough passers by that a lot of people saw the sign before it was vandalized. People remember written words more than spoken ones, remember? For it to take enough time for someone to come up with the clever idea of covering up the single letter to make it say something totally different, wouldn't that mean that there was plenty of time for motorist or pedestrians to see the original saying?

Now, vandalism of public property of any kind is wrong. Period. Against the law. Those athiests paid good money to put up that billboard. They had a First Amendment right to have it put there! There were guys who climbed up there, or worked on the bus sign, and put a lot of work into putting it up. They probably took great pride in their jobs and looked at it as a good days work.

So it was IMO wrong.

So...those guys (the people who had the billboards and bus ads put up) must understand how it felt for the indigenous peoples of Western Europe when their temples and sacred groves were destroyed by those who disagreed with their personal beliefs. They must know how Roman and Greek people felt when statues of their deities were toppled and crushed by intolerant people who thought they were right and everyone else was wrong. They must feel the same sort of fear and sadness that people of France and Germany felt when the Inquisition and its represenatives wiped out entire villages simply because they thought that they were evil or backward because they would not accept beliefs that were being forced upon them. They must have some sort of feeling of how it feels when one person or one group of people try to tell them how to raise their children or tell them that teaching them, or exposing them, to the beliefs of their parents and ancestors, is wrong and stupid. Those guys probably want to stand up and declare the obvious; that the vandalism was wrong and that they have the right to believe what they want to without the fear of someone doing such a cruel and terrible thing. Those guys probably want justice brought upon the people who committed such an act..

or at least tolerance

Tolerance from the vandals? No. Prosecution of the vandals with damages paid. Tolerance is over rated.


Jonathan Lobl

[Karlmarks]

Tolerance is over rated.


Jonathan Lobl

What a shock hearing that coming from you!!!

(But I agree with you.)

Peace & Love!

[UvgpXK0J]

Nope, not tolerance for vandals. But if the vandals practiced a little tolerance, they wouldn't have vandalized in the first place. I don't think it's over rated at all. I think it is sadly under rated and missing in the world as posts by some individuals even on this board seems to prove.

I've said this a hundred times and I will say it a hundred more: believe what you want to believe. Do what it takes to find peace and harmony inside yourself. It's your right to do that. But don't force your opinions on another or degrade them or what they believe simply because you do not agree with it. IMO someone who does that is either deluded and possibly a fascist, or insecure in what they belive in the first place.

I didn't mention one name. I'm not talking about any one person either here on this board or in the world in general. Why? Because it's not about the individual. It's about the mind set that one individual or group can create. This world has no room for bigots. It has no room for prejudice. If we don't begin to practice a little tolerance and understanding towards each other, then we will never survive as a species. All we will do is create radicals and extremists.

[Cwvnyfsj]

What a shock hearing that coming from you!!!

(But I agree with you.)

Peace & Love!

Tolerance is not the same as respect.


Jonathan Lobl

[Kolovorotkes]

Nope, not tolerance for vandals. But if the vandals practiced a little tolerance, they wouldn't have vandalized in the first place. I don't think it's over rated at all. I think it is sadly under rated and missing in the world as posts by some individuals even on this board seems to prove.

I've said this a hundred times and I will say it a hundred more: believe what you want to believe. Do what it takes to find peace and harmony inside yourself. It's your right to do that. But don't force your opinions on another or degrade them or what they believe simply because you do not agree with it. IMO someone who does that is either deluded and possibly a fascist, or insecure in what they belive in the first place.

I didn't mention one name. I'm not talking about any one person either here on this board or in the world in general. Why? Because it's not about the individual. It's about the mind set that one individual or group can create. This world has no room for bigots. It has no room for prejudice. If we don't begin to practice a little tolerance and understanding towards each other, then we will never survive as a species. All we will do is create radicals and extremists.

The vandals spoke with great clarity to the Atheists. I will restate what they said.

I'm right. I have truth on my side.
You're wrong. Nobody cares what you think or have to say. Piss on you.

This is the sort of thing that helps make people into Atheists in the first place. Not the only factor, but it helps. It does prove that religion does NOT make people better.


Jonathan Lobl

[KuznehikVasaN]

don't force your opinions on another or degrade them or what they believe simply because you do not agree with it.

(I'm reading backwards ...and responding to what moves me.)

What hit me in Phoenix's post "don't force your opinions on another." Why? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Forget speak softy and carry a big stick. Squeak away! Violence and vandalism is not needed but one needs a voice. Vandals have simply not learned to use their voice.

BTW, one can squeak away by being silent too. Personally, I dislike people who use this method ... I prefer the vandals ... at least one knows for sure their message.

[hotsaucemidl]

(I'm reading backwards ...and responding to what moves me.)

What hit me in Phoenix's post "don't force your opinions on another." Why? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Forget speak softy and carry a big stick. Squeak away! Violence and vandalism is not needed but one needs a voice. Vandals have simply not learned to use their voice.

BTW, one can squeak away by being silent too. Personally, I dislike people who use this method ... I prefer the vandals ... at least one knows for sure their message.

That breaks down when they meet the vandals from the other team. Then we have war.


Jonathan Lobl

[Jueqelyl]

(I'm reading backwards ...and responding to what moves me.)

What hit me in Phoenix's post "don't force your opinions on another." Why? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Forget speak softy and carry a big stick. Squeak away! Violence and vandalism is not needed but one needs a voice. Vandals have simply not learned to use their voice.

BTW, one can squeak away by being silent too. Personally, I dislike people who use this method ... I prefer the vandals ... at least one knows for sure their message.

Ok, DOJ, let's play pretend for a second shall we.

I am the al mighty all powerful Phoenix. I am the Grand Wizard for the International Church of Witchy Stuff. I have billions of followers.

YOU need to submit to my beliefs because I am the right one. Everything YOU have ever been taught is WRONG. You are unintelligent because you follow the religious path that you do. I have enough power in both the government and my religion that I can dictate to you what is right, what is wrong. you have no say so in it. Why? Because you are simply wrong and I am right. You are not allowed to even expose your children to your beliefs, let alone teach them anything about it.

Anything you see as sacred or holy, or even just plain truth will be taken from you. You may not resist. you may not protest. You may not even speak out against me...If you do, i will yell to the rooftops of how backward you are. I will attempt to embarress you in front of the world. I will belittle you as a person and your life philosophy. Why?

because I'm right and you're wrong.

end of pretend. Extreme and silly i know but still the same mindset. Squeaky wheel? nothing as simple. Intolerance is far more dangerous than any squeeky wheel. Intolerance creates Nazi Germanys, Jim Jone cults, ect ect

Don't take any of the pretend stuff personally, dear. I love ya. Was just making a point. A tired point coming from a sad and heavy heart, but a point.

[PyncGyncliacy]

And i think i may have misread your post as well. ~sighs~ oh well...was good to vent.

[Hbkj89D2]

Ok, DOJ, let's play pretend for a second shall we.

I am the al mighty all powerful Phoenix. I am the Grand Wizard for the International Church of Witchy Stuff. I have billions of followers.

YOU need to submit to my beliefs because I am the right one. Everything YOU have ever been taught is WRONG. You are unintelligent because you follow the religious path that you do. I have enough power in both the government and my religion that I can dictate to you what is right, what is wrong. you have no say so in it. Why? Because you are simply wrong and I am right. You are not allowed to even expose your children to your beliefs, let alone teach them anything about it.

Anything you see as sacred or holy, or even just plain truth will be taken from you. You may not resist. you may not protest. You may not even speak out against me...If you do, i will yell to the rooftops of how backward you are. I will attempt to embarress you in front of the world. I will belittle you as a person and your life philosophy. Why?

because I'm right and you're wrong.

end of pretend. Extreme and silly i know but still the same mindset. Squeaky wheel? nothing as simple. Intolerance is far more dangerous than any squeeky wheel. Intolerance creates Nazi Germanys, Jim Jone cults, ect ect

Don't take any of the pretend stuff personally, dear. I love ya. Was just making a point. A tired point coming from a sad and heavy heart, but a point.

Yes, a very great point. Minority rights should never be in the hands of the majority.

The wheel turns. Sometimes it spins.


Jonathan Lobl

[mymnduccete]

(I'm reading backwards ...and responding to what moves me.)

What hit me in Phoenix's post "don't force your opinions on another." Why? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Forget speak softy and carry a big stick. Squeak away! Violence and vandalism is not needed but one needs a voice. Vandals have simply not learned to use their voice.

BTW, one can squeak away by being silent too. Personally, I dislike people who use this method ... I prefer the vandals ... at least one knows for sure their message.

I've found that if I try to force my opinions on another that they are going to block my voice out or try to get away from me the hardest. I know that someone forcing their beliefs on me annoys me the most.

It's better to exchange opinions if I want someone to keep listening. (except possibly if they're preparing to jump off of a bridge!) People tend to think that they're happiest when they've made up their own minds, not when someone made up their mind for them.

And a vandal's message is diluted to me by the fact that they belong in jail for violating anothers' property. Their message becomes about what they've done, not what they've spray painted on a wall.

[JediReturns84]

Phoenix M: Intolerance is far more dangerous than any squeeky wheel. That depends on what you're intolerant of. I'm impatient with irrationality and ignorance.

: Drop of J: I prefer the vandals ... at least one knows for sure their message. What words of wisdom have you derived from vandals? I think vandals tend to think like my dog. It's all about territory.

[dubGucKcolo]

I've found that if I try to force my opinions on another that they are going to block my voice out or try to get away from me the hardest. I know that someone forcing their beliefs on me annoys me the most.

It's better to exchange opinions if I want someone to keep listening. (except possibly if they're preparing to jump off of a bridge!) People tend to think that they're happiest when they've made up their own minds, not when someone made up their mind for them.

And a vandal's message is diluted to me by the fact that they belong in jail for violating anothers' property. Their message becomes about what they've done, not what they've spray painted on a wall.

So true. The vandal is both a criminal and a bully. Not exactly the voice of reason.

[Blacksheepaalredy]

I think there is a cold war already. The numbers of people I hear say that the UK is a Christian Country and that all other groups should recognise that seems to be on the increase. Sure the head of state (the Queen) is also the head of the Church of England, but to say that the country is of one faith is for me a massive mistake. There are variation in polls. Some show a high percentage of people who say they are Christian but at the same time a low turn out for church attendance and other polls show Christianity at about 45% and having no religion as equal to that figure.
See:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...United_Kingdom
Yet for me none of this is the issue. I do not want to live in a country that cannot see things from more than one perspective and is dominating my free choice to think for myself. I do not want to have a faith or an opinion dictated for me by some one else. If I choose to be Christian or Atheist (or one of many beliefs) then surely that is about me and not about a country.
I also look to the US and see the Christian far right trying to dominate their views on the country too.
It stinks (IMO). If I see a poster that says God does not exist then I may personally may not agree with it (even if my own view of God that differs to much of the bibles view), but hey, (IMO) that poster has every right to be there as any poster that says messages to the contra. Why! because its about freedom and choice and not about one group owning all the rights to speak to the detriment of everyone else.

[hopertveyk]

I think there is a cold war already. The numbers of people I hear say that the UK is a Christian Country and that all other groups should recognise that seems to be on the increase. Sure the head of state (the Queen) is also the head of the Church of England, but to say that the country is of one faith is for me a massive mistake. There are variation in polls. Some show a high percentage of people who say they are Christian but at the same time a low turn out for church attendance and other polls show Christianity at about 45% and having no religion as equal to that figure.
See:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...United_Kingdom
Yet for me none of this is the issue. I do not want to live in a country that cannot see things from more than one perspective and is dominating my free choice to think for myself. I do not want to have a faith or an opinion dictated for me by some one else. If I choose to be Christian or Atheist (or one of many beliefs) then surely that is about me and not about a country.
I also look to the US and see the Christian far right trying to dominate their views on the country too.
It stinks (IMO). If I see a poster that says God does not exist then I may personally may not agree with it (even if my own view of God that differs to much of the bibles view), but hey, (IMO) that poster has every right to be there as any poster that says messages to the contra. Why! because its about freedom and choice and not about one group owning all the rights to speak to the detriment of everyone else.

Within the last few weeks; the government of England gave formal recognition to the Druid religion. I don't know what the membership numbers are -- but it looks like religious freedom to me.

[MineOffedOvex]

Do they sit in the House of lords along with the Bishops? (NO).
How many years were the Druids with us before getting any recognition? (since pre-Roman time (ie before 43 AD)
Surely a government should recognise all faiths as it is supposed to represent the people and not just one section of people (IMO).
Are we as ULC ministers in the UK getting any closer to being recognised? (NO). Sure we have the title but it does not remove any rocks at the moment.

I believe there are small changes but we have a long way to go (IMO).

[Kubasarika]

Do they sit in the House of lords along with the Bishops? (NO).
How many years were the Druids with us before getting any recognition? (since pre-Roman time (ie before 43 AD)
Surely a government should recognise all faiths as it is supposed to represent the people and not just one section of people (IMO).
Are we as ULC ministers in the UK getting any closer to being recognised? (NO). Sure we have the title but it does not remove any rocks at the moment.

I believe there are small changes but we have a long way to go (IMO).

I think I see where you are going with this. England does have one church which is established. That is to say, favored beyond all others.

The grass is always greener in somebody elses Hell. The Church of England may have the blessings of the government. Im not sure how much moral authority they carry with the British people. By the accounts of the American media; England has become largly secular. Not Atheist, but secular. Since the church is an arm of the government, the people feel no need to make it part of their personal lives.

By all accounts, institutional religion is going down the drain in Western Europe also; replaced by a largly secular society. The pope is having a fit over this.

By contrast, America has the First Ammendment to the Constitution which forbids establishment of churches. Religion is far more popular here. That means establishment of religion is a poison pill. The churches keep choking on it.