[reachmanxx]

I will attempt here to defend my position that Christianity is an intolerant and oppressive religion. I don’t know if either of you identify yourself as Christian but I will also submit that if you’re hanging around on these forums your version of Christianity has evolved into something far more tolerant then the norm of Christendom. I will try to stay out of the realm of theology and stick to just the facts but no promises.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Professor Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.

There is no denying that the Old Testament is full of things that any modern person would have serious problems with if they happened today if any of the things god did in the old testament were done today in any religions name we would call it evil.

Women are treated as cattle, bought, sold and beaten.
Whole nations are ordered slaughtered the men, women, children and livestock killed except for the virgins.
Human sacrifice.
All non believers and homosexuals are to be killed.
Slavery.

No sane person today would condone such things as virtuous and good.

Now at this point you may be screaming that the New Testament invalidated the old. That is one interpretation not every bible scholar agrees that this is the case still it does not alter the fact that this book is the foundation of the Christian religion. A book that teaches hate, murder and intolerance.

Then Jesus came and made every thing better…

Oreily

Here Jesus endorses the old testament laws.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Jesus states his mission on earth.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

John talks about unbelievers:
I John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness

Now in fairness Jesus did say some good things, however, for every good teaching he speaks I can dig up three bad things from the New Testament supporting bigotry, hate and intolerance. That though is neither here nor there the greatest failing of Jesus in the New Testament is so much simpler. No where in the New Testament did Jesus or any disciple condemn slavery or say that women should be treated as equals or even a passing comment that maybe it is not ok to stone people to death for who they choose to love. All of the things that today we acknowledge as fundamental qualities of a moral society.

There is nothing in the Old or the New Testaments that could not have been written by a Bronze Age goat herder.

That will bring us to present day and todays Christians. Here are just a few choice samples of the way todays Christians behave.

The 41st President of the United States, George Herbert Walker Bush, said of atheists "No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God."

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/News/Politics/Detail;jsessionid=B0620E05DA66737B55CEC1D6BEB046FD ?contentId=7882247&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.14.1&sflg=1

http://www.newsweek.com/id/169192

http://www.truthout.org/article/pentagon-sued-over-mandatory-christianity


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

http://www.godhatesfags.com/ - Fred Phelps and family.

Etc.. etc… etc…

About now you’re complaining that these are not ‘True Christians’ indeed that is another big problem because they would claim you are not the true Christian. If the word of god and the teachings of Jesus were divinely inspired by an infallible being how can there be so many different sects of Christianity? Why wasn’t he more clear about things. You have to see it from my point of view. There is this book (the bible) that many people claim to hold the divine word of our lord and creator. In this book are many things that are clearly horrible acts of violence done by him and in his name. Now to top that all off there are about 33.000 different denominations of Christianity:

According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (year 2000 version), global Christianity had 33,820 denominations
From: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_different_types_of_Christianity_are_there

All telling me they have the right interpretation and everyone else has got it wrong.

Now I don’t want you to feel I am picking on just Christianity I have even bigger problems with Islam and Judaism but from the outside looking in I don’t see anything to convince me that Christianity is anything more then a Bronze Age death cult of prejudice against women, homosexuals and everyone who believes anything different.

This may not be your Christianity, if indeed you do claim to be Christian and liberal Christianity teachings are more ‘feel good’ with a strong tendency to just ignore the bad bits of the bible. But as long as you claim Christianity as your faith you have to acknowledge everything above as valid about it. Either because it’s part of the history or because someone else who believes in the same book can interpret it a different way to support their views a lot of which are prejudice and hateful.

Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer. Then name me an immoral or unethical statement or action that could only be performed or made by a believer.

Christopher Hitchens (paraphrased) Doubtful you can answer the first but the second is easy.

Now it was not my intention here to make anyone angry only to back up what I see as the truth. I am more then open to having my mind changed.

I would like to state again that it is not a persons beliefs or religion I have problems with. I only take issue with how they use those beliefs.

[bug_user]

I could go back to my ancestors and my spirituality and show you where Christians have defied every edict Jesus ever laid out for their religion ~chuckles~

If you go to war you cannot be a Christian! Jesus's point was that we must even be nice to those who hate us, but every chance Christians have to show their light they innately take the natural or "left" hand path while claiming superiority over the Throne of Eternal LIght!!! ~smiles~

Witch Burnings, Crusades, Inquisitions!!! When have they ever followed the doctrine of their Christ in history?! Please name me one time that Christians actually did what their God tells them to when it really counted as a whole?! I would really like to know?! ~sighs~

Even today in Serbia and Ireland they murder each other over denominations, at least in America they are cowardly (civilized) enough to just cause division and disunity instead of allowing everyone to use the freewill God inherntly gave each individual, instead they try and strip it away!!! ~roars~

I'm not saying there aren't good Christians...I am married to a Christian Woman ~smiles~. As a whole though they fail miserably, that's all I'm saying ~smiles~

They are condenscending and arrogant while playing the victim card of always being persecuted ~smiles~.

I have nothing against any religion as long as they leave me the hell alone, if you incorporate some or most of the Nine Noble Principles that I incorporate into my life, then I am just fine with you even if you worship the Dirty Laundry Basket of Biskus! ~chuckles~

I judge people on an individual basis because if I did judge them on the actions of the whole I would have very few friends and zero Christian friends ~chuckles~, so I just judge a man/woman by their actions and words ~smiles~

[Obgrfbke]

I will do my best in reply to this post. I am a former Baptist, having attended church three times a week for 10 years, as well as a Bapist school from grades 5-12, so I have almost a combined 20 years of Baptist religion under my belt.

Jesus befriended the "less than perfect" people of society--the sick, the whores, homeless, etc. Jesus never caused harm to any other living person. Yes, according to Christianity, Jesus died for the sins of all humans. Did He list which actions, behaviors, etc, are sins? No, that came years later in the letters from Paul to the Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews, etc.

You mention Matt 10:34 and how Jesus says he did not come to send peace. What about this verse:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)Many say that the New Testament overrides the Old Testament, yes. Are we to no longer sacrifice animals and people, yet "suffer (allow) not a witch to live"? Speaking of that last part, "witch" was not the original word used, but "poisoner." Also, one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I don't remember seeing a clause..."except in the case of human and animal sacrifice, stoning the whores, and killing witches."

Keep in mind that the Bible has been translated many, many, many times from the original writings and languages. We all know that translating a word or phrase from one language to another, either the meaning changes, or the word doesn't exist, so a "filler" word has to be used. Or, as in the case of good ol' King James translating the 1611 King James Version, what's to say he didn't change things to suit him? So who is to say that the versions on the shelves today are any where near the original teachings?

IMHO, there are too many translations, contradictions, omissions, additions, and subtractions, for me to take everything in it literally.

NOTHING against the wonderful loving Christians out there (Carolyn, love ya Sis), but most of them can take their hyprocritical brand of religion and "file it."

[QbCp7LaZ]

Translation is a huge problem, you cited a couple of good examples. The KJV of the OT uses the word witch the true meaning is more likely sorcerer or necromancer. Still the idea was the same don't consort in the supernatural with anyone other then god.

Thou shalt not kill is more closly translated to thou shalt not murder. Killing is just fine in the OT where you find the commandments. Killing without a reason is prohibiated.

Saddly there are alot of people out there who do take it literaly. I even had one person tell me that the only true version of the bible was the KJV and that everyone should learn to speak english so that gods word was not mistranslated :Head desk:

Of coarse the apologitic posistion is that the bible is divinly inspired so that god laid his spirit on the translators to insure the message was clear.

The early church was spliltting into sects long before the bible was put together. I am sure you are aware that there are several books didn't make it into the bible and of coarse some of these are the basis for some of the sects that formed.

There is even a gosspel of Mary, or at least fragments of it where she claims to have been taught secrets from Jesus that non of the other diciples were taught.

If Jesus was just another teacher he had some good things to say. If he was part of a divine all knowing being he failed by not condeming slavery and prejudice.

Unless you think 'I was misquoted' is a good defense. But of coarse that brings in the theological question of why a supreme being would allow himself to be misquoted therby causeing untold pain and suffering.

Don't think I didn't notice you dodge the subject, though with elegance. You neatly side stepped my argument that christianity is a religion founded on intolorance and hate that many still continue with today with the argument 'its all translation problems' and one OT quote that may or may not refer to Jesus though by your own admission they could have doctored the writings to say what ever they wanted.

I can understand your reluctance we are taught from early childhood not to question or critisize religion. I think I missed that day

Forgive my spelling I didn't run it through a spell check cause I am lazy this afternoon.

Be happy
Eat chocolate

[actrisski]

I sidestepped nothing. I agree with you about the "inspired" writers of the Bible. Many Baptist ministers that I have come aross teach that the 1611-King James Version--written in "old English"--is the ONLY true word of God, the "inspired" word of God. How can any one person, or group of people, claim to have the "God-inspired" writings of any text (Bible, Koran, Torah, or any "new age" books on the market today)?

Yes, I believe many books were left out of the Bible, so who knows what we are missing today.

However, even as Luke, the Physician set out to tell the world all that Jesus did, "In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven. . ." (Acts 1:1-2). The beloved disciple, John, summed it up best, "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written" (John 21:25).
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/b...christ-faq.htm (my bold type)


There is a HUGE difference in what Jesus taught vs what these "inspired" men wrote afterwards. The only time you will find Jesus becoming violent is when He threw the money-changers out of the temple (they were using a holy gathering place as a common market). If you look at my signature, "God has always been. Religion is man-made.", that is what I believe. God did not say, and this is my former-Baptist-interpretation "Ok, now everyone's going to dress up and go to a meeting place every Sunday morning, sing hymns, pray, put money in the collection plate---hey, hey, no making change there, mister! I saw that!---listen to a sermon, pray, then go home." Well, this kinda screws up the Jews' Sabbath services, because they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and they go to temple on Saturdays.

[Gymnarnemia]

Now I don’t want you to feel I am picking on just Christianity I have even bigger problems with Islam and Judaism but from the outside looking in I don’t see anything to convince me that Christianity is anything more then a Bronze Age death cult of prejudice against women, homosexuals and everyone who believes anything different. I like that.

To me the christians, muslims, and jews are all the same anyway. They all branched from each other and have spread their hatred (of each other and anyone different) worldwide for over 2000 years.

[jacknates]

I'm sorry I skimmed portion of this, but I felt it necessary to post to this. I do have a valid excuse for not reading every fine detail....1)I don't feel good. 2)It's the same old blah blah blah!

This is my opinion and only my opinion and I'm not trying to open a bottle of worms with the next statement but.......

God said "I am". God is ego. So lets talk about that.....Bronze age man was jealous, petty, unjust, vindictive, bloodthirsty, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal. There is archeological proof of that. So if the God described in the Old Testament developed during that time wouldn't that make sense?

Any one who believes that any sacred text was not an inspired work but a direct work is a lost soul.

Unless we speak the language the original text was written in we loose a lot. Even then we loose a lot. I can make many many many statements about my personal beliefs and I guarantee that they are very simple, they would not be understood by most. My understanding of the Divine, just as yours is difficult to translate and easy to misinterpret.

Now, as a side note that is bothering me, Bushy boy is a total retard. When he was governor of Texas he supported a march on a small new age shop about 30 miles from where I live and guess what he said on television about the pagan community in Texas. Something similar to what he said about Atheists. Except he laughed that Pagans might want the same rights as Christians. Don't martyr yourself for your beliefs.

Could we say that the basis of Christianity is hate, oppression and intolerance? Sure. We could also point out that many medical advances that have saved our lives came from the Holocaust too. A beautiful flower and the tasty mushroom comes from death and decay. So? Does that mean that everyone who has ever taken sulfur based anti-biotics, had a premature baby (or been one) is a Holocaust supporter? That every beautiful flower is just a symbol of death? That is ridiculous....logical but ridiculous.

Everything is a circle. Everything. Everything. EVERYTHING!


Now as far as your comment about Jesus saying some good things, you are right. And he said some bad things. So did Hitler, Buddha, Mohamed, Zeus, Einstein, Mother Teresa, and just about every other person that ever was and ever will be.

By finding passages from the Bible (or any other text, conversation, movie, article, essay, poem, etc. etc. etc) that support what you are trying to prove makes you no different then say Fred Phelps. You look at only a piece not the whole. You have to see the whole. And even when you look at the whole, you are still missing parts!


So rather then ramble on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....... with the same old crap over and over again.....let me try and sum this up.


It is not the religion itself that is hateful, oppressive or intolerant. It is an individual that is hateful, oppressive and/or intolerant. There are people like that from every culture, faith, sect, etc.



P.S. I'm not Christian by any means. Jesus was a Son of God, not The Son of God. I am a strict follower of the Dioneses Cult of Culinary Wisdom provided by Holy Chicken #### Batman (tm) Yarns and the infinite power of bright blue ink......lll, ksc, abc, lsd and all that jazz...........................................

[quottrethew]

Hi Mary,

Although I am not taking part in this thread I just wanted to let you know that I think your above post is fantastic.

Especially the part of holding the individual accountable for his/her actions and not generalizing the negatives of a single individual into the totality of a group of people.

Peace & Love!

[dumadegg]

It is not the religion itself that is hateful, oppressive or intolerant. It is an individual that is hateful, oppressive and/or intolerant. There are people like that from every culture, faith, sect, etc.

Well said.

[Gastonleruanich]

It is not the religion itself that is hateful, oppressive or intolerant. It is an individual that is hateful, oppressive and/or intolerant. There are people like that from every culture, faith, sect, etc.

Well said, Mary.


(Wow, I could have said all that and not babbled on like I did. )

[liontutuxx]

Sorry for my absence I am fighting off the flu.

I'm sorry I skimmed portion of this, but I felt it necessary to post to this. I do have a valid excuse for not reading every fine detail....1)I don't feel good. 2)It's the same old blah blah blah!

The same old blah blah blah.
The same old blah blah blah about women’s rights.
The same old blah blah blah about the right of people to live their lives with who they love without repression/hatred.
The same old blah blah blah about human rights.

I, for one, will continue to stand up and blah blah blah whenever I see religion spew oppression and hatred until the blah blah blah starts to sink in.

This is my opinion and only my opinion and I'm not trying to open a bottle of worms with the next statement but.......

God said "I am". God is ego. So lets talk about that.....Bronze age man was jealous, petty, unjust, vindictive, bloodthirsty, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal. There is archeological proof of that. So if the God described in the Old Testament developed during that time wouldn't that make sense?

That was my point there is nothing written in the bible that could not have been written by a Bronze Age desert nomad, where is the divine inspiration? Why didn’t god say something like ‘Oh yeah once a month a woman goes through a cycle ummm yeah it’s not a curse, she is not unclean its just biology’ Or what about something like this… ‘E=MC^2 yeah I know you don’t understand it now but you will one day and ummm thou shalt not use that knowledge to make war’

Any one who believes that any sacred text was not an inspired work but a direct work is a lost soul.

Inspired by what is the real question if the work is inspired by compassion and love then it is probably a wonderful document. However if it is inspired by hate, greed, oppression then it is not. I call them like I see them the bible is a horrible book full of oppression.

Unless we speak the language the original text was written in we loose a lot. Even then we loose a lot. I can make many many many statements about my personal beliefs and I guarantee that they are very simple, they would not be understood by most. My understanding of the Divine, just as yours is difficult to translate and easy to misinterpret.

Now, as a side note that is bothering me, Bushy boy is a total retard. When he was governor of Texas he supported a march on a small new age shop about 30 miles from where I live and guess what he said on television about the pagan community in Texas. Something similar to what he said about Atheists. Except he laughed that Pagans might want the same rights as Christians. Don't martyr yourself for your beliefs.

I am going to address something here about the liberal and moderate religious folks. The ones who don’t take the bible as literal fact and say things like ‘Genesis is a poem about creation’ They may be more tolerant and more likely to pick out just the feel good parts of the bible but they empower the fundamentalist by not standing up and calling them out, or by not holding a counter protest at the new age shop to affirm their stand on religious freedom. As an outsider looking in I have no way whatsoever to distinguish one brand of religion from the other.

Could we say that the basis of Christianity is hate, oppression and intolerance? Sure. We could also point out that many medical advances that have saved our lives came from the Holocaust too. A beautiful flower and the tasty mushroom comes from death and decay. So? Does that mean that everyone who has ever taken sulfur based anti-biotics, had a premature baby (or been one) is a Holocaust supporter? That every beautiful flower is just a symbol of death? That is ridiculous....logical but ridiculous.

Hitler and Stalin both had moustaches so are we to conclude that everyone with a moustache is a mass murderer?

Everything is a circle. Everything. Everything. EVERYTHING!

Ok so you like circles :P

Now as far as your comment about Jesus saying some good things, you are right. And he said some bad things. So did Hitler, Buddha, Mohamed, Zeus, Einstein, Mother Teresa, and just about every other person that ever was and ever will be.

Now your catching on

By finding passages from the Bible (or any other text, conversation, movie, article, essay, poem, etc. etc. etc) that support what you are trying to prove makes you no different then say Fred Phelps. You look at only a piece not the whole. You have to see the whole. And even when you look at the whole, you are still missing parts!

The burden of proof is on the person making the claims I accept that and I have no doubt that I have made my point by taking excerpts directly from the bible and real life events that I linked in my original post to show that the history of Christianities/Islams/Judaisms brutal and oppressive history continues to the present day. Though granted not as extreme, well except for Islam and Judaism. You are accusing me of quote mining which I deny I did post several passages of the bible to support the claim but if I were to present the entire evidence I would have to reprint the OT in almost its entirety. I do look at the whole from the early days all the way to the present I see an unbroken chain of oppression and hatred. People do good things IN SPITE of their religion not because of it.

So rather then ramble on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....... with the same old crap over and over again.....let me try and sum this up.

It is not the religion itself that is hateful, oppressive or intolerant. It is an individual that is hateful, oppressive and/or intolerant. There are people like that from every culture, faith, sect, etc.

Individuals make up the religion how can you say that the whole is different then the sum of its parts? Yes there are people like that from everywhere it is human nature Religion just gives them an excuse to pretend they are doing ‘holy’ work when they mutilate young girls with female circumcision or stone a 13 year old to death for loving someone from another village or.. or.. or… the list goes on and on with the evil things done in the name of religion and NO giving a bit of cash at Christmas time does not counterbalance it.

P.S. I'm not Christian by any means. Jesus was a Son of God, not The Son of God. I am a strict follower of the Dioneses Cult of Culinary Wisdom provided by Holy Chicken #### Batman (tm) Yarns and the infinite power of bright blue ink......lll, ksc, abc, lsd and all that jazz...........................................

Again I don’t care what anyone believes I only care what they do with those believes.

[Podborodok]

Sorry for my absence I am fighting off the flu.

I hope you are feeling better. My in-laws have been out for a couple weeks with a flu....yucky stuff!

The same old blah blah blah.
The same old blah blah blah about women’s rights.
The same old blah blah blah about the right of people to live their lives with who they love without repression/hatred.
The same old blah blah blah about human rights.

I, for one, will continue to stand up and blah blah blah whenever I see religion spew oppression and hatred until the blah blah blah starts to sink in. The point of the 'blah blah blah' statement wasn't negative.
It has been said before.
On other forums I have had very long drawn out discussions with all kinds of people.
I haven't seen an argument or point in this thread that I haven't read many times before.
All are valid.
All are invalid.

That was my point there is nothing written in the bible that could not have been written by a Bronze Age desert nomad, where is the divine inspiration? Why didn’t god say something like ‘Oh yeah once a month a woman goes through a cycle ummm yeah it’s not a curse, she is not unclean its just biology’ Or what about something like this… ‘E=MC^2 yeah I know you don’t understand it now but you will one day and ummm thou shalt not use that knowledge to make war’ My point exactly. If you read The Bible. In Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image," KJV...how could it be any different then what a Bronze Age desert nomad thought.....

And why didn't God say "E=MC^2"? How do we know that E=MC^2 is a Truth (with a capital T)? We thought that maggots came from meat, not from eggs laid by insects.....that was a fact in the middle ages....but now we know that to be un-true.

As far as women having a cycle, you have to tell people things they understand. God did not write the bible, they may not have had words for cells and bacteria and many things we know of now, just like we don't have words for things we will discover.

And there was a good reason for dictating that a woman was "unclean" during her cycle. Ask any woman if she really wants to do housework and deal with men when she is on the rag. They didn't really have pads like we do today, so you can eliminate mess about the house if you went somewhere designed for this incident. It's not good for the body to have sex during your period and it's not really fun either. So, I don't see the problem with this concept. It's better then some ass with a penis giving you hell, wanting to #### and cuddle and bitching about the mess and bitching because you are moody.....we should continue you this.....

I dictate that all women on their period get a paid vacation to a spa when they are on their period!

And the unclean thing seems like extremes but its not. Think about Bronze Age man. Now think about children. Do you sit down with a 2 year old and explain that you only plug appliances in, by holding the plastic part and carefully fitting the plug into the outlet and that is all you can insert into the outlet or else you may get really hurt and/or die? No. You don't bother. They don't understand. You just tell them no. You can explain later if necessary.

"God" is a parental figure. Not everything you say is good as a parent. In fact most everything you say isn't good. "No. Don't do that. Eat your dinner. Don't eat packing peanuts. Don't play with the outlets. Don't run out in the road. Don't beat each other with sticks."

Inspired by what is the real question if the work is inspired by compassion and love then it is probably a wonderful document. However if it is inspired by hate, greed, oppression then it is not. I call them like I see them the bible is a horrible book full of oppression. You can't have one without the other....or else how would you know what compassion and love or hate and oppression were? You have to realize something here....you are looking through a filter. In fact we are all looking through filters at everything, every day. You know how they say you can create your own reality? A big part of that is perception. Two people can perceive the exact same situation in two opposite ways.

We perceive/see what we want to. You want (or don't depending on who you are) to see The Bible as a horrible book full of oppression. So when you read or see The Bible guess what you see. Even if you are trying to see the good....all you will see is the negative. Our filters are soooo ingrained they can be very difficult to change.

I am going to address something here about the liberal and moderate religious folks. The ones who don’t take the bible as literal fact and say things like ‘Genesis is a poem about creation’ They may be more tolerant and more likely to pick out just the feel good parts of the bible but they empower the fundamentalist by not standing up and calling them out, or by not holding a counter protest at the new age shop to affirm their stand on religious freedom. As an outsider looking in I have no way whatsoever to distinguish one brand of religion from the other. Oh, the liberal Christians and other members of the community who stood in front of the store you mean.... Like members of the church 1000 feet away.....

No, you don't perceive when those people speak out. You only perceive people like Phelps and Graham. People and media that focus massive amounts of attention & energy on fundamentalist whack job groups empower them.......

Hitler and Stalin both had mustaches so are we to conclude that everyone with a mustache is a mass murderer? Exactly my point.

Ok so you like circles :P Ya, I do. They are great for arguments......

Now your catching on

The burden of proof is on the person making the claims I accept that and I have no doubt that I have made my point by taking excerpts directly from the bible and real life events that I linked in my original post to show that the history of Christianities/Islams/Judaisms brutal and oppressive history continues to the present day. Though granted not as extreme, well except for Islam and Judaism. You are accusing me of quote mining which I deny I did post several passages of the bible to support the claim but if I were to present the entire evidence I would have to reprint the OT in almost its entirety. I do look at the whole from the early days all the way to the present I see an unbroken chain of oppression and hatred. People do good things IN SPITE of their religion not because of it. Islam is not a violent religion persay. It has its high points and low points. In fact the Koran has several of the items you pointed out back with E=MC^2...Things about biology and natural science that we haven't had the technology to observe until the last 100 years. Yes, there are extremists....but there always will be for any group.

Individuals make up the religion how can you say that the whole is different then the sum of its parts? Yes there are people like that from everywhere it is human nature Religion just gives them an excuse to pretend they are doing ‘holy’ work when they mutilate young girls with female circumcision or stone a 13 year old to death for loving someone from another village or.. or.. or… the list goes on and on with the evil things done in the name of religion and NO giving a bit of cash at Christmas time does not counterbalance it. Individuals make up the followers of a religion. Many times there are leaders who use a technique you hear about a lot with the American military. They break people down and rebuild them how they want them. Most religions, faiths and cultures have a leader. The leader leads. Some leaders lead to a negative end. Some to a positive.

But once again you have to consider perceptions. You see the stoning and circumcisions. Some people see the ornate costumes and dances. Neither group is right....because they don't see the whole and can't see the whole. But neither group is wrong....because you can't see the whole.

Again I don’t care what anyone believes I only care what they do with those believes. So if I believe that murdering Atheists is a good thing....you wouldn't care? (not that I do or anything, I only murder atheists with a lower case 'a')
You do care. You do have a perception of right and wrong. Obviously...you aren't a 13 year old African girl, but you have a problem with female circumcision.....
The problem is you have a perception. We all have a problem. We all have a perception, and that perception isn't always the same.

Now Ken, I want to venture a bit here. I have talked with a lot of Atheists....in fact for many years I was an Atheist. My dad is an Atheist. I have good friends who are Atheists. I have good friends who are Agnostics. I have relatives that are Agnostic.

And I have perceptions of those groups. Some Atheists are atheists because they are scientific. Very few scientists are complete Atheists. There are a lot of scientists who are Agnostic.
My perception and experience with Atheists is that most Atheists find non-Abrahamic religions silly and hate (or have a grudge against) God. Not that they have science on their side. They have repressed emotions about Christianity.

My father is a great example. His mother died a few days before Christmas when he was 11 years old. Leaving an ####### father to raise 2 girls and 3 boys......Who do you think he blames? Science? Nature? No, he blames God. God hurt him. God hurt him very very badly. And for the last 45 years or so he has done what he can to hurt God. He ignores him/her/it. He gives God the cold shoulder. And because he doesn't value himself as much as he does God or his mother, it isn't something he can stop doing....he can't fully repay that hurt.

Now, I'm not saying that all Atheists are hidden Christians. I'm not saying you have to embrace God and convert and be reborn.

But I am saying that we, everyone, needs to step back and look at themselves. We all need to consider we have filters we perceive through. If you don't like something. You find something 'bad'. Maybe it is time to try and alter those filters, open our minds and air them out a bit. It's getting musty and smelly in there. Clean out the moldy old thoughts and re-evaluate their usefulness. Are they useful? Were they ever useful? Why did we put them there in the first place? Are we repressing good or bad memories?

Just food for thought, ya know.