[attackDoold]

You're not buying the idea it's about angst?

Maybe people with more anxiety have better survival skills.

I remember reading that the great Viking explorers thought that everything they encountered could be a demon or monster in disguise. So you could walk up to them smiling and offering a welcome wagon gift basket and they'd wack your head off. Could be that over-reacting is a genetic trait of tribes with a better survival rate.

Then when the pillaging and plundering days were over, they all went to advertise for Capital One credit cards.



Seriously, that's why I just call my beliefs Paganism. I can take what I want from the earth-based belief systems and leave the reset.

[JessePex]

I've always felt closer to The Divine when out in nature.

My Mom would definatly want an explaination as to why I 'turned my back on God' even when I haven't. She doesn't understand why I think that there is only one God and we all just see things differently. She tends to close ranks when I try.

[mygalinasoo]

I've always felt closer to The Divine when out in nature.

Same here. Also in meditation. For me the feeling is that I'm connected with a bigger life energy. It feels like life energy is a bit like electricity in that it travels through stuff, including me.

I've only gotten that feeling in a "religious" group setting on fairly rare occasions.

Chanting "Om" in a group felt a bit like that.

Sometimes singing a hymn felt a bit like that.

Part of the feeling is sensing a vibration, and sound is about vibration.

Group meditations worked sometimes as well, but better if there were sounds.

The feeling also comes up in group activities where the crowd is sharing an experience. It can be a concert, watching sports, or anything where a group is sharing an emotional experience. I get that feeling of being one with the group and there's a transcendental quality to the experience.

When the group is sharing ideas, and my internal reaction is to question what is being said, I'm not sharing the emotional experience of the believers. For the believers, the emotional experience they are having is undoubtedly validating those shared beliefs. It's a good feeling, but I find it difficult to accept most ideas without going through a questioning process. You can't believe everything people tell you. Especially if it sounds like a sales pitch. So, I'm not open to having that good feeling in that context because I feel the need to protect myself.

I actually find it easier to have a shared emotional experience with a group at a concert. Maybe that's why all those Dead Heads would follow the Grateful Dead around, like the Israelites following Moses.

Honestly, I have trouble understanding how people believe many things. But we humans are imaginative creatures, and as they say, where there is a will, there is a way.

Anyway, that's been my experience.

[Frierlovene]

God, the Divine, the Goddess, whatever you choose to call It/He/She is everywhere. If you look you will find it, whether through religion and its dogma, or through spirituality and its freedoms, or through the simple act of seeking. It is an individual thing and the sooner more people understand that the easier this life will be. I know that I am more or less preaching to the choir here, but it is the simple truth of the matter. We will never be rid of religion, too many people feel that they need it, but with effort we can get rid of intolerance, hate, and bigotry. Acceptance is the key and as someone here said the simple laws of love definately apply.

[namaikaimvputka]

God, the Divine, the Goddess, whatever you choose to call It/He/She is everywhere. If you look you will find it, whether through religion and its dogma, or through spirituality and its freedoms, or through the simple act of seeking. It is an individual thing and the sooner more people understand that the easier this life will be. I know that I am more or less preaching to the choir here, but it is the simple truth of the matter. We will never be rid of religion, too many people feel that they need it, but with effort we can get rid of intolerance, hate, and bigotry. Acceptance is the key and as someone here said the simple laws of love definately apply.

I agree, Kelly.

[KahiroSamo]

Feeling the presence of nature does seem to indicate the concept of God/the Divine is a much bigger concept than something that can be contained in only one belief system. The presence and voice of the Divine is indeed all around us, but we must allow ourselves (and one another) to hear its voice.

[ropinirole]

Feeling the presence of nature does seem to indicate the concept of God/the Divine is a much bigger concept than something that can be contained in only one belief system. The presence and voice of the Divine is indeed all around us, but we must allow ourselves (and one another) to hear its voice.

Amen! God is not contained in a little box to be used by only a select few individuals.

Peace & Love!

[ENGINESSQ]

Feeling the presence of nature does seem to indicate the concept of God/the Divine is a much bigger concept than something that can be contained in only one belief system. The presence and voice of the Divine is indeed all around us, but we must allow ourselves (and one another) to hear its voice.

Amen! God is not contained in a little box to be used by only a select few individuals.

Peace & Love!

Yup! I would vote for you two.

[andreas]

I'm not clear on the question. When we speak of "religion" in this context; are we talking about a belief system -- or an institutional power structure/church?

Jonathan Lobl

[benderkoz]

I find comfort in what science teaches us about the natural world, what I can understand of it.

Greyface: So what are the important things to know about and what are not?

I don't understand anyone choosing to meditate over sleeping. When I meditate, I sleep. Aaaah.

[jhkjurter]

I will respond to this too if no one else does.

BTW I love the discussions, Maxx. Thanks for being here.

Peace & Love!

[Agitoligflise]

I'm not clear on the question. When we speak of "religion" in this context; are we talking about a belief system -- or an institutional power structure/church?

Jonathan Lobl

Hi Jonathan,

On this forum, most often, when the word 'religion' is used it is referring to the institution/church. 'Faith' suggests a belief that is largely consistant with an established 'religion' and 'belief' may or may not be consistant with any religion. For example, Maxx's 'belief' is in Atheism; my 'belief' is philosophical Taoism, neither of which is associated with any 'religion'.

And your post reminded me, we still have not responded to Maxx's question, "So what are the important things to know about and what are not?"

Peace & Love!

[kathy]

Hi Jonathan,

On this forum, most often, when the word 'religion' is used it is referring to the institution/church. 'Faith' suggests a belief that is largely consistant with an established 'religion' and 'belief' may or may not be consistant with any religion. For example, Maxx's 'belief' is in Atheism; my 'belief' is philosophical Taoism, neither of which is associated with any 'religion'.

And your post reminded me, we still have not responded to Maxx's question, "So what are the important things to know about and what are not?"

Peace & Love!

I went back and reread this thread a few times. The priniple theme seems to be about labels and how we define things. Perhaps I'm just not getting something. The opening question seemed to be about replacement.

I find that formal religion can get in the way of being happy. I used to be a Home Health Aide. Some of the people I worked with were dying. They had terminal conditions. It was often the religious people who were afraid of death. The secular people tended to be more accepting. What I learn from this is that institutional religion is about fear and controle.

I believe it is possible to have religion without fear and controle. I choose to have religion without fear and controle in my life. That is me. Some people want to be controled by their church.

If the Sheep knew more about their Shepherds, they would take their chances with the wolves.

Jonathan Lobl

[MzTT]

What I learn from this is that institutional religion is about fear and controle.

I believe it is possible to have religion without fear and controle. Jonathan Lobl

Again, I agree that many (but not all) institutional religions teach fear. And this is so that those in power can control the masses.

I believe that religion should be about love, not fear. And the opposite (IMO) of fear, courage - the courage to follow the teachings of love and compassion and sharing.

But then, I, personally, hold to no religion so who am I to say?

Peace & Love!

[accelieda]

But then, I, personally, hold to no religion so who am I to say?

Peace & Love!

Finally, an easy question. Who are you to say? A minister of the ULC. A voice for freedom, growth and personal empowerment. The very opposite of fear and controle. And we both found it. Maybe you don't have "religion." You do have "The Way." Well, your way. That's a lot!

Jonathan Lobl

[M4tHkBw2]

Finally, an easy question. Who are you to say? A minister of the ULC. A voice for freedom, growth and personal empowerment. The very opposite of fear and controle. And we both found it. Maybe you don't have "religion." You do have "The Way." Well, your way. That's a lot!

Jonathan Lobl

Thank you, my Friend. Mighty powerful words there. I will do my best to live up to them. Yes, my way.

Peace & Love!

[Qvqnubpj]

Greyface: So what are the important things to know about and what are not?

Sorry maxx, I've been really sick the last few days.
In answer to your question--> That is a decision only a single person can make for themselves.
Before you can make that decision though, you really should figure out WHY you want to know anything.

I believe it is possible to have religion without fear and controle.
If the Sheep knew more about their Shepherds, they would take their chances with the wolves.

Hi, Jonathan, nice to meet you!
I agree. It is possible to have religion without fear and control. Just as it is possible (especially in the 21st century) to have war without death.

Yes, shepherds like Mutton too.

Again, I agree that many (but not all) institutional religions teach fear. And this is so that those in power can control the masses.

I believe that religion should be about love, not fear. And the opposite (IMO) of fear, courage - the courage to follow the teachings of love and compassion and sharing.

The problem here is that religions are created by Men, not by Gods. Even then, all religions are based around human ideas about Gods, which by definition (most anyway...) are beyond the scope of understanding of the feeble human mind..

Yes, I understand that comparatively, the human mind is the most advanced and powerful thinking machine on the face of earth (that we've discovered through science anyway). Compare that though, to the mind of a God. No matter how powerful we may become mentally, we will always be insignificant to that concept.

Humans tend to fear what they don't understand. How can we ever understand God?
In that sense, fear becomes Him.

[Sydrothcoathy]

The problem here is that religions are created by Men, not by Gods. Even then, all religions are based around human ideas about Gods, which by definition (most anyway...) are beyond the scope of understanding of the feeble human mind..

Yes, I understand that comparatively, the human mind is the most advanced and powerful thinking machine on the face of earth (that we've discovered through science anyway). Compare that though, to the mind of a God. No matter how powerful we may become mentally, we will always be insignificant to that concept.

Humans tend to fear what they don't understand. How can we ever understand God?
In that sense, fear becomes Him.

Yes, I agree, religions are created by man. Some with good intentions, some not.

I agree that fear is a result of ignorance, but fear is also a characteristic of a pessimist, I think.

I do not need to understand creation (God). Nor do I see any reason to fear what has allowed for my creation. Creation is good. Destruction is good. Therefore God is good.

Peace & Love!

[acissombiapse]

Yes, I agree, religions are created by man. Some with good intentions, some not.

I agree that fear is a result of ignorance, but fear is also a characteristic of a pessimist, I think.

I do not need to understand creation (God). Nor do I see any reason to fear what has allowed for my creation. Creation is good. Destruction is good. Therefore God is good.

Peace & Love!

Why would I agree that God is Good? I expect that The One is beyond Good and Evil.

Jonathan Lobl

[Trotoleterm]

Why would I agree that God is Good? I expect that The One is beyond Good and Evil.

Jonathan Lobl

See? I caught you paying attention. Hehehe.

Yes. Good and evil are human concepts.

A quote from Lao Tzu:

Heaven and Earth are impartial;
They treat the Ten Thousand Things
Like sacrificial straw-dogs.

That is to say, God is impartial.

(But I am an optimist so I need reflect that as often as I can.)

Peace & Love!