[geasurpacerma]

I'll be selling a house soon as well.

[orgagsUpsepsy]

I affirm that I also wish to be added to the piano eaters.

[nuabuncarnigo]

You asked, “Why is it intelligent to conclude that there is a designer present when only a select few have claimed to witness the designer?”

Easy. When you look at artwork done long ago in caves, you know human intelligence was behind the art, but no living person ever saw the designer. There is a faith element, too, but we also know by experience that works of art generally are made by fellow humans. To conclude that there was no human intelligence would be stupid.

Okay. Now that I have answered your question, would someone here try to answer my question found near the end of my original post?

On another matter, someone wrote, “Since time doesn't really exist,” but time is very real. How many of you have watches? Why would anyone watch what does not exist?

Another wrote, “…why is it so bad to just admit that believing the biblical story of earth's creation is faith? why does it have to be ‘science’?”

When you enter I-95, you have faith that the car behind is not going deliberately to run you off the road. Sometimes an accident will indeed happen, but in general we have faith in the other driver. We also have faith that the car just ahead of you will not fall apart. It was put together using science, etc. Science and faith can go together. We interact with them in tandem daily.

Applecart,

I think what you're witnessing is boiled over result after countless attempts to correct a dishonest poster. The ID movement in and of itself is largely a dishonest marketing attempt to deconstruct the science curriculum of public schools.

Why is it intelligent to conclude that their is a designer present when only a select few have claimed to witness the designer?

Also, why is it intelligent to assume that the select few that supposedly witnessed the designer do not have any other motivation at play to mislead the public, or that they are of sound mental health and did not have a hallucination?

[Fruriourl]

Other than chimp studies done by humans and the like, art has only been done by humans. Additionally, cave art has been accompanied by artifacts that can be dated to certain periods of human existence. Human remains are also found near these artifacts (as well as evidence of agriculture). Nobody, archaeologists or anyone else besides someone with an agenda like yourself, has ever claimed that we believe that cave art was created by humans based on faith. At worst, it's based on a logical conclusion accompanied by physical evidence. Your BELIEF that the world was created by a deity is, again, based on the fact that you can't come up with any other explanation - or you refuse to consider other explanations that are based on logic and evidence.

[mdUzAMbG]

On another matter, someone wrote, “Since time doesn't really exist,” but time is very real. How many of you have watches? Why would anyone watch what does not exist?.

Time is a human construct based on a linear view of the movement of light through space. Watches are based on the linear movement of light from our sun to the Earth. If you go to other parts of the universe, light moves at different speeds, it is affected by gravity. Watches do not reflect these changes. Watches measure linear movement of light as we perceive it looking at our sun from our planet. It is not based on anything but our perception.

It is exactly the same question as why would anyone read a book about a God that does not exist? Because people believe God exists. Just as people believe time exists. However, it's been proven that time is a fallacy. It just hasn't been proven yet that God is a fallacy. But belief in God is based on the same limited human view that is the basis of your belief in time.

[ambiddetcat]

On time, read Einstein. See: relativity, special and general. There's a reason it's called spacetime and not just space.

Because time is not something separate, but tied to the fabric of spacetime and the movement of light, in parts of the galaxy where gravitational effects get wonky, you'll get such weird features as time dilation. Even in normal conditions, somebody traveling at 99% the speed of light will experience "time" as passing slower than somebody traveling at effectively 0% the speed of light. There's a classic thought experiment demonstrating this.

[GrileVege]

Alright, I agree. You guys are on the money about this one.

I have to say that I don't believe that faith and science go together. I think it's more accurate to say that trust and science can go together. I trust that a car will not fall apart because I trust the science behind the car. I trust some science more than others so I buy the same make of car over and over. Trust is usually based on something quite tangible such as statistics or prior experience. Faith is a much less tangible construct.

[Adamdjeffe]

Alright, I agree. You guys are on the money about this one.

I have to say that I don't believe that faith and science go together. I think it's more accurate to say that trust and science can go together. I trust that a car will not fall apart because I trust the science behind the car. I trust some science more than others so I buy the same make of car over and over. Trust is usually based on something quite tangible such as statistics or prior experience. Faith is a much less tangible construct.

I agree. Faith is almost the opposite of science in a lot of ways. Faith to me is strictly belief w/ out proof. Science on the other hand is process of collecting proof.

[Hftqdxpm]

I have to say that I don't believe that faith and science go together.

I don't believe crazy old men and rational discussion go together.

[myspacepro]

Yes but why spoil the fun?

[gennickhif]

First, thank you posters 25-28. I comment below, but you four have demonstrated that you can contribute to a discussion.

Second, forgive me for identifying you with post numbers. It’s easier that way.

#25 wrote: “It is exactly the same question as why would anyone read a book about a God that does not exist? Because people believe God exists. Just as people believe time exists. However, it's been proven that time is a fallacy.”

It has not been proven that time is a fallacy, and why wouldn’t anyone read a book about the God who does exist? The Bible has been proven true over and over again. Think of the many archeological confirmations, for example.

#26 wrote, “…you'll get such weird features as time dilation.”

I agree, but something that does not exist can’t dilate.

#27 wrote: “I think it's more accurate to say that trust and science can go together.”

Okay, but for me, faith and trust are more or less synonymous.

#28 wrote: “Faith to me is strictly belief w/ out proof.”

Not to me. The displays of intelligent design are so overwhelming that one who is an atheist must close his eyes and shut his ears to reality. In short, it takes more much more faith (essentially denial) to be an atheist than a theist.

When we all were in the wombs of our mothers, none of us had even a clue as to what life was all about. After some decades of living, however, some adults affirm that there is no God. But which of them has travelled throughout the entire universe in 30-50 years since birth to give him the right to pontificate that God cannot exist because he didn’t find him. It’s like the child who says there is no fish in the ocean because he didn’t catch one. We humans have amazing abilities, but compared to God, we are pretty stupid.

I agree. Faith is almost the opposite of science in a lot of ways. Faith to me is strictly belief w/ out proof. Science on the other hand is process of collecting proof.

[mussmicky]

Go back to Africa, Humber.

[IvJlNwum]

Humber, this is the difference between someone who believes in "Intelligent" Design and an actual practitioner of the scientific method.

Discovery of dinosaur fossils -

ID: How can I interpret this so it fits in with the timelines and stories outlined in the Bible?

Scientist: Are these reptiles or birds? Around what year did these fossils live? What caused them to die? What sort of habitat did they live in?

To spell out the difference, Humber, you start off with a conclusion and then try to twist things you discover to fit into your belief system.

A scientist, on the other hand, will start with a question, come up with a way to explain the question or answer it, test this answer in ways that anyone else could replicate, and then put his findings up for review by anyone interested.

An intelligent man continues to ask questions. There is a reason why there are still only a handful of scientific laws in existence - and even some of those are being called into question.

God may very well exist. There is no way to ever formally conclude that God does not. There will always be a way to state that a God exists because the concept of God is based off of mysticism, or something that "just is". There is no way of having a productive debate between a person who believes in logical conclusion based on evidence and testable theory and a person who believes in a conclusion for no other reasons than he has no better explanation and because he has an emotional desire for that conclusion to be true.

[Xlkl9SFd]

#26 wrote, “…you'll get such weird features as time dilation.”

I agree, but something that does not exist can’t dilate. Nice GOTCHA response! Except, not. You're trying to put us in our places when you clearly lack even a basic understanding of what's being discussed here.

The "time" you read on your wristwatch is not exactly the same "time" being referred to in Quantum Theory. When I say "time" doesn't exist, I'm referring to our daily use of time being a very, very basic representation of an abstract theory that more or less completely diverts from what we know (or choose to believe, in your case). If you want to make this really simple, just think of time in terms of distance rather than a tick-tock.

[jisee]

That was a fast leap from 'an intelligent designer' to 'God'. Read the Wedge Document again, applecartt - you're not supposed to draw back the curtain and reveal that this is really a religious argument rather than a scientific one.

[retyopj]

That was a fast leap from 'an intelligent designer' to 'God'. Read the Wedge Document again, applecartt - you're not supposed to draw back the curtain and reveal that this is really a religious argument rather than a scientific one.

At least he's honest. The entire basis behind Intelligent Design is to crowbar the Bible into legitimate discussion. Either that, or he's an idiot.

[suiviouse]

I don't see trust and faith as synonymous. Trust can be earned. It can be had in varying degrees. It is based on reason. I see faith as somewhat more all or nothing, with little reason attached.

My trust can be earned by actions; my faith cannot.

[Sxedlawb]

First, thank you posters 25-28. I comment below, but you four have demonstrated that you can contribute to a discussion.

Sorry, Paul, but you've been banned for repeatedly violating the Philadelphia Speaks ToS. That you refuse to honor the wishes of the admins and owners of this site is disrespectful of them and of other users who play by the rules.

[ONLINEPHARMACYCHEAPILLS]

Nice GOTCHA response! Except, not. You're trying to put us in our places when you clearly lack even a basic understanding of what's being discussed here.

The "time" you read on your wristwatch is not exactly the same "time" being referred to in Quantum Theory. When I say "time" doesn't exist, I'm referring to our daily use of time being a very, very basic representation of an abstract theory that more or less completely diverts from what we know (or choose to believe, in your case). If you want to make this really simple, just think of time in terms of distance rather than a tick-tock.

Yep, exactly. The phrase "time dilation" refers to a specific phenomena in astrophysics. See here. Once you start talking about spacetime you start thinking of time as distance (like a light-year) rather than as an experiential phenomenon. Indeed, the occurrence of time dilation (discrepancies between observed times between observers due to different routes traveled and/or different speeds traveled along route(s), all other things being equal) demonstrates just how subjective the common (clockface) understanding of time is.

[phpfoxmods]

Yep, exactly. The phrase "time dilation" refers to a specific phenomena in astrophysics. See here. Once you start talking about spacetime you start thinking of time as distance (like a light-year) rather than as an experiential phenomenon. Indeed, the occurrence of time dilation (discrepancies between observed times between observers due to different routes traveled and/or different speeds traveled along route(s), all other things being equal) demonstrates just how subjective the common (clockface) understanding of time is.

Let's take a moment to fondly recall Humber's understanding of time.

According to Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, gravity warps time so that distant clocks run faster than those near the center of a gravitational field. This theory may support a young earth view. If the earth is near the center of the entire cosmos (not the same thing as saying the earth is the center of our solar system), then clocks on earth would be running much more slowly than clocks near the expanding edges. In the past, when the cosmos was smaller, the effect could have been very significant. Light which traveled 15 billion years, “Cosmos Edge Time,” would have done the distance in 6,000 to 10,000 years, “Earth Standard Time.” This model, therefore, could account for light, traveling from extremely distant regions, actually arriving on earth, a 6-10K years old planet. Why is anyone talking to this idiot again?