[Kokomoxcv]

...And come to the church and give ALL your money...

Southern Baptist leader on yoga: Not Christianity - Yahoo! News


A Southern Baptist leader who is calling for Christians to avoid yoga and its spiritual attachments is getting plenty of pushback from enthusiasts who defend the ancient practice.

Southern Baptist Seminary President Albert Mohler says the stretching and meditative discipline derived from Eastern religions is not a Christian pathway to God.
Mohler said he objects to "the idea that the body is a vehicle for reaching consciousness with the divine."

"That's just not Christianity," Mohler told The Associated Press.
Mohler said feedback has come through e-mail and comments on blogs and other websites since he wrote an essay to address questions about yoga he has heard for years.

"I'm really surprised by the depth of the commitment to yoga found on the part of many who identify as Christians," Mohler said.

Yoga fans say their numbers have been growing in the U.S. A 2008 study by the Yoga Journal put the number at 15.8 million, or nearly 7 percent of adults. About 6.7 percent of American adults are Southern Baptists, according to a 2007 survey by the Pew Research Center Forum on Religion & Public Life.

Mohler argued in his online essay last month that Christians who practice yoga "must either deny the reality of what yoga represents or fail to see the contradictions between their Christian commitments and their embrace of yoga."
He said his view is "not an eccentric Christian position."

[ZesePreodaNed]

...And come to the church and give ALL your money...

Southern Baptist leader on yoga: Not Christianity - Yahoo! News

god's okay with meditation but it really hates the stretching and improving your health art of yoga. and the clothes make it clear that yoga is really about sex.

[ignonsoli]

This is why people are becoming more secular. Don't exercise, it's not christian. Clearly plenty of americans are following the pastor's advice and becoming fat as **** to cleverly avoid using their body as a vehicle to divinity.

[Intiltern]

I don't know what's worse,that someone actually said that or that his followers will believe him. I still find it pretty surprising that we put people up on the moon 50 years ago on one hand and then on the other in the here & now, you have people with their head up their azz so far that they might as well be on the moon instead of stinking up the earth with their stupidity.

I will bring the roses once they have finished digging their grave. Hopefully I'll still be alive to attend.

[mudozvonf]

What people call yoga is actually only one part of it that is hatha yoga-- the postures. Dr Oz has his patients learn yoga. His own routine includes yoga postures but it is designed by him but I do not know what religion he is.

Exercise reduces your chances of getting breast cancer. Here is Dr Oz's 7 minute daily workout. Workout Videos | HealthCorps Great for abs. He mentions the downward dog posture that is a yoga posture.

Yoga is kind of a scientific approach to God. Yoga is not against people being Christian or Muslim. They call that Bhakti Yoga. Bhakti means devotion so any practice that uses devotional love is Bhakti yoga. So Christians practice bhakti yoga.

A recent study shows that the more you sit, the shorter your lifespan. Yogis knew that thousands of years ago. They knew that sitting for hours in meditation is not good for health so the yoga postures make up for that.

Now go to China. The Shaolin temples had monks and priests who did hours of meditation. To make up for the bad physical effects, they practiced martial arts. It had other benefits like helping you to defend yourself.

It was rumored that during the years of Jesus that are missing from the bible, he went and visited India. That is not a sin. A Christian can choose to be ignorant of other religions or learn about other religions. For example if you ask a Christian who does not know about other religions, he will not know where the idea of going to heaven or hell came from.

Before Jesus was born, the Zoroastrian religion was very popular. It taught that if you did more good than bad, then you go to heaven and if you do more bad than good, then you go to hell. Socrates who lived hundreds of years before Jesus taught that man had an immortal soul and that was the most important thing.

Also Jesus is called the Son of God. His birthdate is unknown. But for thousands of years before Jesus people celebrated the birthday of the sun god on December 25th. The words son and sun sound exactly the same. The sun of God is the virtual cure for breast cancer. See what Harvard Medical School, Johns Hopkins and famous MDs like Christiane Northrup, M.D. say about this.

[slowlexrese]

Yoga is kind of a scientific approach to God.

In what respect?

[Greapyjeory]

Yoga is great exercise, but stupid religion.
I had some "religious" rushes while doing yoga.
It was mind blowing, but I never had any feeling that it came from without, I worked damn hard to push my body into releasing those chemicals.

[huntbytnkbel]

In what respect?

It looks beyond the culture that it is in. It is similar to positive psychology that studies how people can be happier. It sees that some people approach God by devotion. But others approach God through study like learning the bible. Then others approach God through meditation. What is God to the yogis? This answers that question. Wikipedia says, under Yoga Philosophy, "In all branches of yoga, the ultimate goal is the attainment of an eternal state of perfect consciousness." Sigmund Freud was familiar with this. Sigmund Freud described an "oceanic feeling" as a sense of limitless and unbounded oneness with the universe.

These are altered states of conscousness that are attained without drugs. In Positive Psychology they call it flow where a person can feel a state of extreme euphoria where time stops. The Beatles learned TM (Transcendental Meditation). Raja means king. Meditation is called raja yoga. The Pope meditates everyday so he is practising raja yoga. Jet Li is a national treasure of China. He also meditates everyday. He is a Buddhist.

So the yogis do not say that Jet Li is good and that the Pope is crazy or vica versa. They are both practising raja yoga just like the Beatles.

[dodsCooggipsehome]

It looks beyond the culture that it is in. It is similar to positive psychology that studies how people can be happier. It sees that some people approach God by devotion. But others approach God through study like learning the bible. Then others approach God through meditation. What is God to the yogis? This answers that question. Wikipedia says, under Yoga Philosophy, "In all branches of yoga, the ultimate goal is the attainment of an eternal state of perfect consciousness." Sigmund Freud was familiar with this. Sigmund Freud described an "oceanic feeling" as a sense of limitless and unbounded oneness with the universe.

These are altered states of conscousness that are attained without drugs. In Positive Psychology they call it flow where a person can feel a state of extreme euphoria where time stops. The Beatles learned TM (Transcendental Meditation). Raja means king. Meditation is called raja yoga. The Pope meditates everyday so he is practising raja yoga. Jet Li is a national treasure of China. He also meditates everyday. He is a Buddhist.

So the yogis do not say that Jet Li is good and that the Pope is crazy or vica versa. They are both practising raja yoga just like the Beatles.

Ok, so there's the god. In what respect is this scientific?

[AssinHT]

coming late to the party...

but i will agree with one aspect of the pastor's tirade: yoga isn't Christianity, has no Christian roots. So when I read about "Christian yoga" and such, it confounds me. It makes me think that people with strong beliefs in their own god also appreciate what the entirety of yoga (other than just the exercise routine) does for one's own sense of spirituality, and then instead of accepting this, they usurp it of its roots and make it somehow conform to notions of traditional Christianity. I suppose at one point evergreen trees had nothing to do with celebrating Christmas, and the dates of celebration themselves were of pagan origin, so anything is possible...in a few decades, "Christian yoga" will be as Christian as Jesus the Christ himself! Heck, in India, if you say you're going to an ashram, people never know whether that means the traditional Hindu retreat and place of worship, or a new fangled Christian one, which looks and acts the same, but where the yogis chant the good names (oops, just one good name) of their god.

[Noilemaillilm]

btw, Dallas Morning News often gets into the thick of things in religious debates...they run a popular religion blog...obviously Dallas area has a lot of folks who're into religion, primarily various forms of Christian worship.

They took up this issue and asked a panel of theologians of various stripes about their response... read on:

TEXAS FAITH: Should Christians (and other non-Hindus) beware of yoga? | RELIGION Blog | dallasnews.com

That has one Hindu perspective. Here's another:

Hinduism Today Magazine - Yoga Renamed Is Still Hindu - Magazine Archives > January/February/March 2006 - Publications

Finally, a philosophical review and take from the Parliament of World Religions:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules...hp?itemid=5064

[pipittujbk]

Yoga is great exercise, but stupid religion.
I had some "religious" rushes while doing yoga.
It was mind blowing, but I never had any feeling that it came from without, I worked damn hard to push my body into releasing those chemicals.

That's because they don't think it comes from without--but within.

And you've probably only been exposed to the exercise aspect of yoga...remember, meditation is yoga, too, and neurochemically identical to prayer.

[Evdokia]

That's because they don't think it comes from without--but within.

And you've probably only been exposed to the exercise aspect of yoga...remember, meditation is yoga, too, and neurochemically identical to prayer.

yeah, I'm afraid the understanding of yoga among many practitioners in the U.S. is that it's great exercise...and if they know anything about the spiritual aspect at all, they either dismiss it like this person did or try to amalgamate it with their current religion even if from an internal philosophical perspective it wouldn't make any sense. I think a lot of that has to do with a lot of people's deep-seated disgust at knowing that yoga is of Hindu/Indian origin...in various media and education (especially Sunday school but also some very biased grade school social studies text books) they've been shown all the negative aspects so that's all they relate it with. Compare that with, for example, all the infatuation with anything Japanese. Manga. Sushi. Zen. whatever.

[flopay]

I think a lot of that has to do with a lot of people's deep-seated disgust at knowing that yoga is of Hindu/Indian origin

This may have been true but just like your Japanese example, I see Indian culture becoming very chic in the near future. It seems to always start with food when another culture becomes faddish - I see more and more people partaking in Indian cuisine. (I admit this is only a guess.)

[Deengealf]

This may have been true but just like your Japanese example, I see Indian culture becoming very chic in the near future. It seems to always start with food when another culture becomes faddish - I see more and more people partaking in Indian cuisine. (I admit this is only a guess.)

NBC's Outsource is a good example of that...

[Vokbeelllicky]

This is why people are becoming more secular. Don't exercise, it's not christian. Clearly plenty of americans are following the pastor's advice and becoming fat as **** to cleverly avoid using their body as a vehicle to divinity.

It's a typical example of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

So Hinduism gave us a form of exercise. I suppose fundamentalist Christianity gave us the cold shower and the con man. There's no question which contribution to the world is more useful...

[ARKLqAZ6]

This NYT article from late last week highlights the debate, except from the Hindu viewpoint. I think the group in the middle of this debate is making some very salient points.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/ny...yoga.html?_r=1
The campaign, labeled “Take Back Yoga,” does not ask yoga devotees to become Hindu, or instructors to teach more about Hinduism. The small but increasingly influential group behind it, the Hindu American Foundation, suggests only that people become more aware of yoga’s debt to the faith’s ancient traditions.

That suggestion, modest though it may seem, has drawn a flurry of strong reactions from figures far apart on the religious spectrum. Dr. Deepak Chopra, the New Age writer, has dismissed the campaign as a jumble of faulty history and Hindu nationalism. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, has said he agrees that yoga is Hindu — and cited that as evidence that the practice imperiled the souls of Christians who engage in it. Dr. Shukla said reaction to the yoga campaign had far exceeded his expectations.

“We started this, really, for our kids,” said Dr. Shukla, a urologist and a second-generation Indian-American. “When our kids go to school and say they are Hindu, nobody says, ‘Oh, yeah, Hindus gave the world yoga.’ They say, ‘What caste are you?’ Or ‘Do you pray to a monkey god?’ Because that’s all Americans know about Hinduism.” I think Deepak Chopra is being a self-centered idiot with his comments that make no sense to anybody that knows anything about Hindu history. He's misleading.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/ny...yoga.html?_r=1

[PhotoSHOPadob]

The reasoning behind Hindu American Foundation's "Take Yoga Back" campaign:

TakeYogaBack | Hindu American Foundation (HAF)

a snippet:

The popularity of yoga continues to skyrocket in the Western world as yoga studios become as prevalent as Starbucks and the likes of Lululemon find continued success in the mass marketing of $108 form enhancing yoga pants. As this $6 billion industry completes one Suryanamaskar (sun salutation) after another, there has been growing concern from the Hindu American Foundation about a conscientious delinking of yoga from its Hindu roots.

From asanas named after Hindu Gods to the shared goal of moksha to the common pluralistic philosophy, the Hindu roots of yoga seem difficult to deny. Yet, more often than not, many Western yoga practitioners are aghast at the very suggestion that the cherished "spiritual practice" of yoga is firmly grounded in Hindu philosophy. In fact, in a letter to Yoga Journal magazine, HAF noted its disappointment at finding countless descriptions of the Upanishads or Gita as "ancient Indian" or "yogic", but rarely "Hindu".

Shortly after being told by Yoga Journal that "Hinduism carries too much baggage," the Foundation formulated its stance on this important issue with the release of its paper Yoga Beyond Asana: Hindu Thought in Practice, quoting extensively from both the legendary yoga guru B.K.S. Iyengar as well as his son, Prashant Iyenagar. The stance paper highlights not only the delinking of yoga from its Hindu roots, but also the erroneous idea that yoga is primarily a physical practice based on asana. Yoga covers a wide array of practices, embodied in eight "limbs," which range from ethical and moral guidelines to meditation on the Ultimate Reality. Asana is merely one "limb" which as become the crux of Western yoga practice.

In December 2009, HAF's Suhag Shukla had the opportunity to bright light to yoga's Hindu roots at the Parliament of World Religions in Australia during a panel discussion. Shukla spoke out against the commercial appropriation and misappropriation of yoga which purposefully delinks yoga from its roots in Hinduism.
I know there is at least one active yoga studio owner here on PS. I wonder what she (he?) thinks about this issue.


Here is Hinduism Today magazine giving space to the debate between the HAF and Deepak Chopra on this issue:

Hinduism Today Magazine - Clash: Who's Stealing Yoga? - Magazine Archives > October/November/December 2010 - Publications

Who's Stealing Yoga?
Dr. Aseem Shukla denounces the "Theft of Yoga," saying yoga is undeniably Hindu; self-help guru Deepak Chopra retorts, "No, it's not!" Welcome to the Great Yoga Debate.

[ZenDers]

A really clear and succinct article on HuffPo about the ongoing debate about "Christian Yoga" from a lucid author. This is very interesting to read and clarifies the various stances and sub-stances that many non-Hindu Americans get themselves into when discussing what Yoga means to them.

Rajiv Malhotra: A Hindu View of 'Christian Yoga'

While yoga is not a "religion" in the sense that the Abrahamic religions are, it is a well-established spiritual path. Its physical postures are only the tip of an iceberg, beneath which is a distinct metaphysics with profound depth and breadth. Its spiritual benefits are undoubtedly available to anyone regardless of religion. However, the assumptions and consequences of yoga do run counter to much of Christianity as understood today. This is why, as a Hindu yoga practitioner and scholar, I agree with the Southern Baptist Seminary President, Albert Mohler, when he speaks of the incompatibility between Christianity and yoga, arguing that "the idea that the body is a vehicle for reaching consciousness with the divine" is fundamentally at odds with Christian teaching.

Yoga's metaphysics center around the quest to attain liberation from one's conditioning caused by past karma. Karma includes the baggage from prior lives, underscoring the importance of reincarnation. While it is fashionable for many Westerners to say they believe in karma and reincarnation, they have seldom worked out the contradictions with core Biblical doctrines. This view obviates the doctrine of original sin and eternal damnation. The view of an individual having multiple births also contradicts Christian ideas of eternal heaven and hell seen as a system of rewards and punishments in an afterlife.

Most of the 20 million American yoga practitioners encounter these issues and find them troubling. Some have responded by distorting yogic principles in order to domesticate it into a Christian framework, i.e. the oxymoron, 'Christian Yoga.' Others simply avoid the issues or deny the differences. Likewise, many Hindu gurus obscure differences, characterizing Jesus as a great yogi and/or as one of several incarnations of God. These views belie the principles stated in the Nicene Creed, to which members of mainstream Christian denominations must adhere. They don't address the above underlying contradictions that might undermine their popularity with Judeo-Christian Americans. This is reductionist and unhelpful both to yoga and Christianity.

For the full article click on the link above.

[Gogogo]

To the Western atheistic viewpoint on Yoga as just another mumbo-jumbo or that it's just another form of exercise, I really like how Mr. Malhotra puts the issues in right context.



An atheist writes: "Nicene creed is ...a stupid belief, I agree. But not more stupid than the belief in Karma/ rebirth...*"

My response:

Two things can be bad/stupid and yet DIFFERENT from each other. Thats important to appreciate*. Two different poisons or two different diseases or two lies - they should not considered the same.

Using this principle, a scientist looking for reproducib*le empirical proof who rejects both the Christian core narrative as well as karma/rebi*rth, must also acknowledg*e that they differ from one another. Thats my point.

Given this difference*, how do the Christian recipients of yoga reconcile? Do they:

(A) amend yoga to fit into Christiani*ty by either (i) removing spirituali*ty entirely out of it, or (ii) mapping it onto the oxymoron called Christian Yoga?

Or do they (B) modify/rej*ect the Nicene Creed that is causing the incompatib*ility?

Those are the choices, and I propose B while the S. Baptist president proposes A(i).

This debate from the atheist's point of view is between two foolish claims, so he should stay out as he has nothing to contribute because both sides are rejected by him. The two sides involved do have to work this out and the atheist brings nothing to the table for them to take seriously. He can distract by turning it into unrelated issues about what "else" is bad about one or the other side, if he is looking for a conversati*on to insert himself.