[artenotreah]

That's just delicious if taken in the context of Humber. He has a need to push his delusions on others, to supress 150 years of science so as to make a name for himself within his own social circle... at the expense of the entire society which advances only when searching out & finding new ways to explain & understand natural phenomena.

By this definition we have a moral obligation to one another to profess only that which we have good reason to believe is true.

I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but it makes sense...and it's also a reason for atheists not to lie!

As there is a huge preponderance of evidence that leads us to believe evolution is a sound theory, and ZERO evidence to believe that the universe was wished into being by something supernatural, it is our moral obligation to society to advance the notion of evolution, not creation, as the origin of species. Maybe we should transfer this quote to the other thread.


I'd offer to quote you, which would re-post your posts but I don't want to responsible for the old guy blinding himself. You know he lusts for headless women in bikinis... Thanks. I don't really care whether he ignores me or not. I am tempted, however, to post a picture of a man in a Speedo as my avatar and see if that blinds him, or if it's only the flesh of 'precious creatures' that offends him

[Appenianags]

I can't recommend this book enough for someone looking for some insight on the connection between evolution and morality.

Amazon.com: The Moral Animal: Why We Are, the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology (9780679763994): Robert Wright: Books

It is a great read, and a lot of back story on who darwin was, and his journey in publishing his theory.

[Rellshare]

I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but it makes sense...and it's also a reason for atheists not to lie!

I can't take credit: the idea is from another essay by the blogger I linked earlier.

Maybe we should transfer this quote to the other thread.

Its been said there, in many ways, many times. Maybe Dig can add it to his sig?


Thanks. I don't really care whether he ignores me or not. I am tempted, however, to post a picture of a man in a Speedo as my avatar and see if that blinds him, or if it's only the flesh of 'precious creatures' that offends him Maybe I should change my avi to a man in a speedo? Maybe Humber would acknowledge me then. (like I care)

[karaburatoreror]

I do not think there's anything such as objective morality because we're always changing. What is accepted today wasn't so yesterday. The best example I can give is that of homosexuality, which was immoral and a sin not too long ago, and which still is in some countries. Another example is abortion, which is not considered immoral in the country I come from but is so in this country. Therefore, I believe that morality depends upon culture, history, and circumstances. Something as basic as 'one shouldn't kill' has exceptions. Incest has always been a taboo, but from what I know, Bible does contain some instances of incestuous relationships (correct me if I'm wrong)

You make some good points here Penny & I tend to agree. All human opinion of morality will be subjective.

If there is only human opinion, then there cannot be an objective morality: there cannot be one set of moral laws which will work for all humans at all times.

Some (like Humber) tho would have us believe there is an objective morality, given by God.

This brings up 2 points: why would God's opinion be objective, and not subjective?

And (back to the God of the Gaps idea): why would an all-powerful God have created beings who depended on God for something so crucial to society, culture & therefore long-term survival?

(I'm not terribly good or experienced at this so feel free to correct me if my logic or train of thought isn't consistant)

[Dogxzysl]

I read an article a while ago which suggested that morality is based on values and the idea that actions have consequences. (snip)If all we do is fulfill our own needs at the expense of others, we are societal outcasts - the consequences of those actions can be societally disastrous.

I was reading through this thread waiting for someone to say that. I agree. It's hard to see where biological evolution gives rise to morality -- that's social evolution. But it's easy to see how cooperation is necessary for a group to survive. And maybe cooperation begets* altruism.
(*Trying to sound biblical here).
I also think Penny_less nailed it by saying that morality is slippery because the rules change over time.

If there is only human opinion, then there cannot be an objective morality: there cannot be one set of moral laws which will work for all humans at all times.

It would be hard to "enforce." If all the babies on the planet were taught the same values and morals, they'd probably still develop their own customs and morals in their own 'hood, just like the case with language.

But even if it did work, it would be boring. I wouldn't bother to rent French films after that.

This brings up 2 points: why would God's opinion be objective, and not subjective? Ha, well, he's supposed to be the alpha male. No one's going to listen if it's not viewed as objective. I suppose it could be argued that if he created us then he knows what's best for us. That's why the crazies say things like god invented STDs to punish us -- b/c we didn't adhere to the One True Moral Codebook.

And (back to the God of the Gaps idea): why would an all-powerful God have created beings who depended on God for something so crucial to society, culture & therefore long-term survival? Because he's needy?

[SasortFkire]

But it's easy to see how cooperation is necessary for a group to survive. And maybe cooperation begets* altruism.

This is why the golden rule makes sense. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Your self-interest is important insofar as it advances the self-interest of the group. If you treat them well, they'll treat you well and everyone advances.

[FalHaitle]

I also think Penny_less nailed it by saying that morality is slippery because the rules change over time.
It would be hard to "enforce." If all the babies on the planet were taught the same values and morals, they'd probably still develop their own customs and morals in their own 'hood, just like the case with language.

But even if it did work, it would be boring. I wouldn't bother to rent French films after that.

Even if everyone agreed on what the morals were, they would still be subjective, because they are just our human opinions of what is right for all of us. Just like you said, eventually people would drift from the norm, probably out of boredom.

If you believe the stories, we are the animal that has knowledge of good & evil. We can't not incorporate both -- we're stuck with trying to balance them both out.

And in Genesis,

Ha, well, he's supposed to be the alpha male. No one's going to listen if it's not viewed as objective. I suppose it could be argued that if he created us then he knows what's best for us.

People don't listen. And if God knows what's best, then why so many rules? Also.. Doesn't that negate the idea of free will? Maybe not...

That's why the crazies say things like god invented STDs to punish us -- b/c we didn't adhere to the One True Moral Codebook.

If it were so important to God that we have one true Moral Codebook, why are there so many different ones? And wouldn't God have written the moral code on our brains, made it instinctive, rather than wait millenia for things like the invention of paper, and written language, and cultures that value educating people to know how to read?

[suilusargaino]

For the answers to most of those questions, you'll have to take it up with him, haha.
I don't think that rules negate free will, although making everything instinctive would.
Once upon a time, Satan was God's right hand man, a kind of punisher. Later, the Christians transformed him into something far more interesting: a tempter. Maybe God wants to see if on our own we can be truly moral, i.e. follow his rules, in the face of your avatar and other temptations.

[Vezazvqw]

Maybe God wants to see if on our own we can be truly moral, i.e. follow his rules, in the face of your avatar and other temptations.

Then I am doing God's work, and am thereby worthy of your praise.

PRAISE ME!!!!!!!!

[Nikitka]

Then I am doing God's work, and am thereby worthy of your praise.

PRAISE ME!!!!!!!!

[fgjhfgjh]

Once upon a time, Satan was God's right hand man, a kind of punisher. Later, the Christians transformed him into something far more interesting: a tempter. Maybe God wants to see if on our own we can be truly moral, i.e. follow his rules, in the face of your avatar and other temptations.

I have to think there is a world of difference between being truly moral and following rules. As I noted earlier, the only thing God forbade Adam and Eve was the knowledge of good and evil. He didn't want us to be good or bad, just obedient. He didn't even want us to be able to consider the consequences of our actions. Even after we knew the difference between good and evil, the moral code YHWH laid down--the 10 Commandments--were really just more of God being an attention whore. Depending on who's fingers you're counting on, 30 to 40% of the commandments are about how jealous he is, and how you're supposed to love and obey God and none other.

That so many Xtians can't tell the difference between morality and obedience is troubling, but it sure explains a lot of things.

[NodePark]

I'm not Christian so I don't know what the Bible says about good and evil, but from my knowledge and experience, I feel that good and evil is relative. What is good for one person might not necessarily be good for the other, so I don't know how that goes.

A person is capable of doing both good and evil but our society is made up in such a way that it praises us when we do something good. That, I feel, is one of the reasons why we do good. When we do good, we feel good, and in the end, feeling good is what it's all about..that's what's animal! Humans are social animals and we have evolved into such over the ages and one thing that keeps us from doing anything bad is this bond we have with others. So my point is that nothing was given to us by the god(s). We evolved into that over the years, keeping what worked and throwing away what didn't.

As for your question, OldCity, theists are probably going to say that God wants you to work for her so you don't end up in hell, and therefore didn't give you these rules etched in your brain.

[EtellaObtaite]

I have to think there is a world of difference between being truly moral and following rules.

Tsk, tsk. There you go again, thinking for yourself. ;-)

[Obsententicab]

re. the other thread - Humber seems to have me on ignore. I suspect it's because he can't tolerate my screen name which to him is suggestive of demons, although it's actually the name of the neighborhood in which I live.

I remember that we schooled him on that back on Phillyblog.

The whole exchange was reminiscent of the Church Lady ("Could it be...Satan?").

Richard Dawkins refers to Humber's ilk as "history-deniers." If it extends only as far as that, it's one thing. In Humber's case, it clearly goes beyond the edge of morality. Why anyone would sit still for moral advice from someone who seems constitutionally unable to avoid lying about evolution is beyond me.

It's just evidence that anyone can throw down some quotes from scripture, claim to be a Christian, and start questioning the degree of everybody else's faith. The proof is in their behavior, though, and based on the lying and the hypocrisy that I've seen there, I guess some people are more impressed by the amount of talking about Jesus that he does, rather than the degree to which he puts those words into practice.

[softy54534]

another strike against evolution:
God Introduces New Bird

October 9, 2009 | Issue 45•41


THE HEAVENS—In what is being described by advance marketing materials as "the first divine creation in more than 6,000 years," God Almighty, Our Lord Most High, introduced a brand-new species of bird into existence Monday.
"This new bird has it all: slicker wings, a more streamlined beak, better-than-ever capacity for beautiful song. Plus, all of the grace and majesty you've come to expect from the Eternal Creator of Life Itself."
"The bird is back," God continued, His booming voice parting the very heavens. "And baby, it's never looked better." And I was excited about the new iPod Touch.

God Introduces New Bird | The Onion - America's Finest News Source