[XarokLasa]

To put it in a nutshell:

1. Jesus is not a deity. He may or may not have been a real person.

2. The story of Jesus is plagiarized from other religions far more ancient than Christianity. This goes beyond Judaism. The bulk can be directly traced to Egyptian religion and worship of the sun god, Horus, who happens to share many important features with Jesus. These features are so identical, the issue cannot be due to coincidence. This is not to say that Horus is the only Pagan god with similar features, but he is one of the most identical to Jesus. Others might be Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus, Attis, or Zoroaster.

http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm First Century Jesus References | Ask Metafilter Similarities between Jesus and Horus What's So Special About Jesus?

Armed with a few good search words, your studies may yield better and more abundant sources.

3. All of the story of Jesus is astrology. He dies on a cross. The sun in the winter solstice on December 25 hangs in a constellation known as the crux. Then it is “born” after 3 days of seemingly hanging in the same spot and starts to set in a different place going further North each night. People were so fearful in the winter that the sun would not came back that they celebrated its return, and the end of the continual shortening of days. When it is born, the North star lines up with Orion’s belt, composed of three stars known as the “three kings”. In sum, this is all that the resurrection is. Nothing more. There was no real cross and no real dying savior. All of that mumbo jumbo was a template for other theological ideas, such as sin and salvation, to take root.

4. If Jesus WAS real, then it is highly likely that he was groomed to recycle myths from the past in order to become a tool of social control. In any event, the real or fictional Jesus was a tool of political control when he became historicized. Some scholars, I believe, may claim that Chrsitian gnosticism never intended for Jesus to be a real person and that the rituals and religious concepts of gnosticism were borrowed from other Pagan religions. I believe that the most plausible version is one in which religious gnostics made up the religion truly believing that it was something great, but that there was no real Jesus. Later, people like Paul (who never eyewitnessed Jesus) possibly either mistakenly thought Jesus was historical or concocted the historical Jesus. Being a skeptic, I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories. So once again, I would favor the church fathers mistakenly believing in a historical Jesus after years of the birth of non-historical Jesus Christian gnosticism.

How do Christians respond to the claim that Christianity is sun worship?

[Voliscietle]

apparently not at all...

[hojutok]

This is a bad poll--manipulative--it forces you to choose between the most fundamentalist and most atheistic interpretations available, and the third option is a nonoption. Thus the choice lies between one straw man and another, and 95% or so of the population will be unable to give a proper answer.

Needless to say, I did not vote.

[L0KoxewQ]

Follow the moon.

[Mowselelex]

To put it in a nutshell:

1. Jesus is not a deity. He may or may not have been a real person.

Bias #1. Fact: The reality of his existence is not in doubt. Such a figure must have existed--why else would the early followers be so galvanized?
2. The story of Jesus is plagiarized from other religions far more ancient than Christianity. This goes beyond Judaism. The bulk can be directly traced to Egyptian religion and worship of the sun god, Horus, who happens to share many important features with Jesus. These features are so identical, the issue cannot be due to coincidence. This is not to say that Horus is the only Pagan god with similar features, but he is one of the most identical to Jesus. Others might be Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus, Attis, or Zoroaster. The stories of Krishna arose at about the same time as Jesus: in fact, they both seem to anchor a peculiar class of faith. And of course, any stories about Jesus had to conform in some way to the established tales of religious heroes in order to gain any traction.
http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm First Century Jesus References | Ask Metafilter Similarities between Jesus and Horus What's So Special About Jesus?

Armed with a few good search words, your studies may yield better and more abundant sources.

3. All of the story of Jesus is astrology. He dies on a cross. The sun in the winter solstice on December 25 hangs in a constellation known as the crux. Then it is “born” after 3 days of seemingly hanging in the same spot and starts to set in a different place going further North each night. People were so fearful in the winter that the sun would not came back that they celebrated its return, and the end of the continual shortening of days. When it is born, the North star lines up with Orion’s belt, composed of three stars known as the “three kings”. In sum, this is all that the resurrection is. Nothing more. There was no real cross and no real dying savior. All of that mumbo jumbo was a template for other theological ideas, such as sin and salvation, to take root. Mistake the ancient understanding of astrology with the modern one at your own peril! Remember that in the Roman world far more stake was placed in astrology than today. Through millenia the stories warped to fit the astrology; the astrology did not necessarily originally inform the stories.
4. If Jesus WAS real, then it is highly likely that he was groomed to recycle myths from the past in order to become a tool of social control. Prove it.
In any event, the real or fictional Jesus was a tool of political control when he became historicized. Some scholars, I believe, may claim that Chrsitian gnosticism never intended for Jesus to be a real person and that the rituals and religious concepts of gnosticism were borrowed from other Pagan religions. Dig deeper. Gnosticism seems informed by chthonic cults primarily, but I happen to think there is a strong Eastern mentality latent in them. I wonder if the improved road network made possible by Rome and Parthia allowed Buddhist monks to travel west? I believe that the most plausible version is one in which religious gnostics made up the religion truly believing that it was something great, but that there was no real Jesus. I thought I already said that there was a real Jesus--later attributions are the issue. Later, people like Paul (who never eyewitnessed Jesus) possibly either mistakenly thought Jesus was historical or concocted the historical Jesus. Being a skeptic, I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories. Then why are you spouting one off?
So once again, I would favor the church fathers mistakenly believing in a historical Jesus after years of the birth of non-historical Jesus Christian gnosticism.

How do Christians respond to the claim that Christianity is sun worship? By saying that first you must prove your claim. You have offered no evidence whatsoever to support your position.

[Foucceedo]

there is a whole video series on this issue over at a web site called The Zeitgeist.

Also, hammer, I don't know why you insist at several occasions (I've seen you mention it elsewhere before) that Krishna worship is about the same age as Christianity. That may be your understanding, but I don't know if that is the established understanding. The Yuga Era calendar (the current Kali Yuga) is set at passing away of Krishna Dwapiayana-- The Krishna of the Dwapara Yuga. That calendar is traced back to the year 3102 BCE (meaning the current Kali Yuga year is 5,111.

Now if you say Bhakti Yoga as a popular devotional worhship movement, is about the same age as Chrisitianity, then that is more agreeable. But before Bhakti Yoga's popularity, Brahmins and others within Hinduism worshipped Krishna (among other avatars of God) using other Yoga sutras, especially Gyana Yoga. In fact, Krishna is even mentioned in some Buddhist texts (as Kanha) and some of Hinduism's/India's early texts dating back to 5th century BCE refer to Krishna worship.

Considering that a lot of what evolved into classical Hinduism was passed down the generations among families only via oral tradition, the actual antiquity of Krishna worship can, at this point, only be gauged to be quite older, and certainly older than the appearance of Jesus worship.

[Julik19]

Zeitgeist - The Movie

check it out... the web site apparently even goes through an effort to provide detailed rebuttals.

wiki's critique:
Zeitgeist, the Movie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GlarlraTpople]

there is a whole video series on this issue over at a web site called The Zeitgeist.

Also, hammer, I don't know why you insist at several occasions (I've seen you mention it elsewhere before) that Krishna worship is about the same age as Christianity. That may be your understanding, but I don't know if that is the established understanding. The Yuga Era calendar (the current Kali Yuga) is set at passing away of Krishna Dwapiayana-- The Krishna of the Dwapara Yuga. That calendar is traced back to the year 3102 BCE (meaning the current Kali Yuga year is 5,111.

Now if you say Bhakti Yoga as a popular devotional worhship movement, is about the same age as Chrisitianity, then that is more agreeable. But before Bhakti Yoga's popularity, Brahmins and others within Hinduism worshipped Krishna (among other avatars of God) using other Yoga sutras, especially Gyana Yoga. In fact, Krishna is even mentioned in some Buddhist texts (as Kanha) and some of Hinduism's/India's early texts dating back to 5th century BCE refer to Krishna worship.

Considering that a lot of what evolved into classical Hinduism was passed down the generations among families only via oral tradition, the actual antiquity of Krishna worship can, at this point, only be gauged to be quite older, and certainly older than the appearance of Jesus worship.

The popular legends of Krishna certainly predate Jesus, but the movement that coalesced around him and culminated in the Bhagavad-Gita did so during the last five centuries or so BCE and the first two CE. Remember Krishna is a nonentity in the Vedas and in the Upanishads relative to his supreme importance in the Gita...and so as an average Krishna as a godhead dates back to the same era as Christ.

Also, phillyaggie, my experience with the Gita's Sanskrit suggests that it's an idiosyncratic spoken mode derived from, not ancestor to Panini's grammar. Most of the unusual words seem to my ear to be more neologisms (e.g. English neurobiology) rather than archaicisms (e.g. English hie thither), contrary to what one would expect, linguistically, if the Gita, as certain religious authorities posit, actually did date back to the Vedic period or beyond.

Thus it is not the collection of stories I'm referring to, which must be very ancient indeed, but rather the religious movements that sprung out of Krishna that I'm referring to when I talk about Krishna's age...much as Christianity is the tradition that derived from a religious moment centered around Christ and that can be dated with surety.

In any event, I still have yet to see a shred of evidence that Christianity is sun worship...and find it a hard pill to swallow.

[ttiokjbnhjjillp]

Jesus wasn't born on 25 December. His official birthday was moved to that date (the date of a Roman festival) in the middle ages. In the same way today, the Queen of England has an actual birthday (the day she was born) and official one which is the day which is celebrated

To understand what's going on here, you need to read up on the early history of the Church, between about 300-600. In an attempt to make the religion more palatable to various groups in the Roman Empire, it adopted many elements of other religions, various mystery cults, and Roman state religion itself.


Three favorite examples: first, the christian, cross-shaped church is based on the basilica, the Roman law courts, which had a cathedra -a chair- in the center of two crossin wings with an apse behind.

Second, one of the Pope's titles is Pontifex Maximus, which is what the lead priest of the Roman state religion was called. It means, "Lead bridge-builder", as that man was originally in charge of the care of the Tiber bridges.

There's a church in Rome near the Pantheon called santa maira sopra minerva (St Mary's over Wisdom). It's called this because it sits on top of an old temple to Minerva. And across the empire, you find Christian churches built atop temples to Juno, Minerva and Venus.

The best description of it is something a professor at Temple U said. He called it "New wine in old bottles."

[derinasderun]

Exactly.

Mr. Morley: How have you gotten over 500 posts in a month? Some of us have been around since the inception and haven't got 1000 yet...

[euylvaygdq]

Jesus wasn't born on 25 December. His official birthday was moved to that date (the date of a Roman festival) in the middle ages. In the same way today, the Queen of England has an actual birthday (the day she was born) and official one which is the day which is celebrated

To understand what's going on here, you need to read up on the early history of the Church, between about 300-600. In an attempt to make the religion more palatable to various groups in the Roman Empire, it adopted many elements of other religions, various mystery cults, and Roman state religion itself.


Three favorite examples: first, the christian, cross-shaped church is based on the basilica, the Roman law courts, which had a cathedra -a chair- in the center of two crossin wings with an apse behind.

Second, one of the Pope's titles is Pontifex Maximus, which is what the lead priest of the Roman state religion was called. It means, "Lead bridge-builder", as that man was originally in charge of the care of the Tiber bridges.

There's a church in Rome near the Pantheon called santa maira sopra minerva (St Mary's over Wisdom). It's called this because it sits on top of an old temple to Minerva. And across the empire, you find Christian churches built atop temples to Juno, Minerva and Venus.

The best description of it is something a professor at Temple U said. He called it "New wine in old bottles."

What you said about the Christian cross is incorrect!! It was Inspired by the Anhk. This was around before the Romans

[ovenco]

Exactly.

Mr. Morley: How have you gotten over 500 posts in a month? Some of us have been around since the inception and haven't got 1000 yet...

I'm on the Internet WAY too much.

What you said about the Christian cross is incorrect!! It was Inspired by the Anhk. This was around before the Romans

What I said was, the traditional Western Christian church floorplan is an adaptation of the Roman basilica form. The five churches built by Constantine in Rome -old St Peter's, St John Lateran, S Maria Maggorie, San Paolo fuori le Mura and an Lorenzo fuori le Mura- which are the oldest churches in the Western Church, were all built on the Roman basilica floorplan: apse, long crossing arm, and colonnaded nave. They are identical to the Roman law courts except they are larger in scale.

This information is the first thing you will find in any book on the subject of early Christian architecture.

[Rupeviv]

Nice thread
There is nothing better than going to Rome and seeing these things for yourself.
Yes it is a form of sun, hope, renewal, spring pagan worship.
I wonder how long it will take you know who to come over and cut and paste bible verses.

[biannaruh]

I like what that ol' sage and philosopher George Carlin had to say about religion and sun worship:

... rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a ****, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

[wiweimeli]

Nice thread
There is nothing better than going to Rome and seeing these things for yourself.
Yes it is a form of sun, hope, renewal, spring pagan worship.
I wonder how long it will take you know who to come over and cut and paste bible verses.

I would LOVE to go to Egypt to see how the Romans came in and "STOLE" their knowledge

[Arrocousa]

I would LOVE to go to Egypt to see how the Romans came in and "STOLE" their knowledge

"Not smart at all"? You're not Your Neighbor's alter ego, are you?

[imporrilk]

I'm on the Internet WAY too much.



What I said was, the traditional Western Christian church floorplan is an adaptation of the Roman basilica form. The five churches built by Constantine in Rome -old St Peter's, St John Lateran, S Maria Maggorie, San Paolo fuori le Mura and an Lorenzo fuori le Mura- which are the oldest churches in the Western Church, were all built on the Roman basilica floorplan: apse, long crossing arm, and colonnaded nave. They are identical to the Roman law courts except they are larger in scale.

This information is the first thing you will find in any book on the subject of early Christian architecture.

Cathedral designs came from the Nile Valley. British astronomer Sir Norman Lockyer, wrote a book about it

The dawn of astronomy: a study of ... - Google Books



St Peter's Cathedral in the Vatican

Sun Lore of All Ages: Chapter XI. Solar Significance of Burial Customs. Orientation

"In regard to St. Peter's at Rome, we read that so exactly due east and west was the Basilica, that on the vernal equinox the great doors of the porch of the quadriporticus were thrown open at sunrise, and also the eastern doors of the church itself, and as the sun rose, its rays passed through the outer doors, then through the inner doors, and penetrating straight through the nave, illuminated the High Altar."


The men responsible for building the cathedrals in medieval Europe were "operative mason". These men viewed Egypt as the birthplace of Masonry

[jesyflowers]

"Not smart at all"? You're not Your Neighbor's alter ego, are you?

I get carried alway sometimes

[MondayBlues]

Cathedral designs came from the Nile Valley. British astronomer Sir Norman Lockyer, wrote a book about it
St Peter's Cathedral in the Vatican

"In regard to St. Peter's at Rome, we read that so exactly due east and west was the Basilica, that on the vernal equinox the great doors of the porch of the quadriporticus were thrown open at sunrise, and also the eastern doors of the church itself, and as the sun rose, its rays passed through the outer doors, then through the inner doors, and penetrating straight through the nave, illuminated the High Altar."

Your links cover orientation, not floorplan. And they're talking about Gothic and later churches.

Of the four Constantinian churches still standing, none of them are oriented on a due east/west axis as later churches are.

The men responsible for building the cathedrals in medieval Europe were "operative mason". These men viewed Egypt as the birthplace of Masonry
That's interesting, but again, I'm talking about early Christian architecture. We can do architecture of the Middle Ages next semester.

Here's the floorplan of Old St Peter's (San Pietro in Vaticano):



Here's the floorplan of the Basilica (law court) of Maxentius:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Floor_plan.jpg (too big to post)

The two buildings are very close in age, and it is easy to see how the form of one was adapted for the other.

[strollerssfsfs]

Bias #1. Fact: The reality of his existence is not in doubt. Such a figure must have existed--why else would the early followers be so galvanized?

Not only that but the Romans kept good records. Historians will tell you that Jesus physically existed and was crucified.