[Preegovesem]

Interesting! Thanks everyone for your input. I figured it would be more complicated than expected. I've never really cared what government-like agencies label my dog as, I just wanted some clarification seeing as how I've never owned a purebred before.

AS a purebred WITH UKC papers, you certainly CAN show him in UKC shows if you want. IF he is overdone and is too "bully", he probably won't do too well in conformation shows, and he SHOULDN'T. There are lots of other events that you can play in in UKC other than conformation shows anyway...

Although I don't see ABKC as legitimate and don't care for what they promote (and others don't see UKC ADBA and AKC as legitimate either, so there ya go!), you certainly CAN register your dog in ABKC (you can register just about ANYTHING there) and play their games as well. Try to visit the shows and performance events of each registry and see how you like it!

But, I wouldn't let the disagreements on these message boards stop you from doing what you are allowed to play in in any of the registries.

Carla

---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

there is a fair amount of animosity towards AmBullys. Why is this?

I don't care if you see them as the same breed or not....what the majority of "bully" breeders are doing is a travesty (IMO) and done for the most base of reasons. There is NOTHING good about what is being done by the breeders to those dogs. What those dogs are bred for and how they are bred is certainly not reason enough to bestow the term "breed" upon the travesties those idiots produce (my opinion).

Carla

---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 AM ----------

xdogs' post is spot on

I thought so too.Carla

[Toivaluadiora]

Beautiful dogs, Carla. You should post them more often.

[Clielldub]

I'm sure this is discussed a lot, so I apologize in advance. I'm new to the forums and had a hard time finding a similar post.

Anyway, after poking around these forums the past few days I've begun to get a grasp on the different breeds that carry the Pit Bull name. I recently purchased my first registered Pit. I've been told he is an AMBully, however, he is registered with the UKC as an American Pit Bull Terrier. What the heck?? Also, what does the 'PR' stand for before his sire and dam's names?

Clarification much appreciated! Sorry, I'm sure you guys get these posts all the time. I would have posted in the Bully section but I don't have access to it yet.

[outsitWrord]

How about specific APBT bloodlines then, that dwarfism occurs in?

I think yours are UKC registered aren't they ... that tells me much right there. The UKC will COMMONLY and ROUTINELY accept different/mixed breeds as APBT. Arguably more so than any other "highly recognized" registry.

It's funny ... I have a dog that is 100% verified, proven AND DNA'd with the ADBA registry as a Colby bloodline APBT. Colby documented and linebred ALL the way back to the inception of the APBT as a registry recognized breed. HOWEVER comma, while I also have the UKC paperwork for my dog, both sire and dam are registered with the UKC and DNA'd with the UKC my dog would not do well AT ALL in sanctioned events in the UKC. Why ?? ... because apparently the APBT is not what the UKC is looking for. They tend to award dogs with an AST look about them.

On the other hand, my pup has placed in EVERY ADBA event he's been entered in while bringing home 2 Thirds and 2 Firsts from a sanctioned point event.

Which leads me to ponder where the real APBTs are. Hmmmm.
On the other hand, some would say not in any of those registries

[outsitWrord]

Discussion of dwarfims on Bull Terrier board.

Dwarfism (aka achondroplasia))

In rebuttal to my statement, you already stated that the Bull Terrier is not to be confused with the APBT ... in so many words more or less, so that still doesn't apply to APBTs.

For the record, I do agree that dwarfism occurs in certain breeds of dogs. I'm not denying that. I've just never heard of it in proven purebred and pedigreed ADBA APBTs.

Also for the record, my comments weren't about your specific dogs per sa (except your mention of dwarfism in your own dogs and the fact they are UKC registered) ... my comments were more toward/alluded to the UKC and how they "do business" inside and outside the ring.

At least I gotcha to post pictures of your wonderful dogs

[outsitWrord]

American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) is not a breed recognized by the AKC either. Sure as hell doesn't mean the Amercian Pit Bull Terrier isn't a breed.

What you APPEAR to have is an AmBully registered with the UKC as an American Pit Bull Terrier. Which many will tell you makes the dog an APBT on paper only.

So how does an AmBully get registered with the UKC as an APBT ?? Good question LOL ... here in his own words is an explanation by the creator of the AmBully ... Dave Wilson ...

About seventeen years ago I started breeding to create the Razors Edge line… I started with a foundation of the AKC registered "Staffs", they carried the heavier builds, larger heads, and more mellow demeanors. We crossed in lines from UKC registered "Pits" to add more muscularity, more drive, and a harder look. After about seven years of blending and selective breeding, we came out with the look and personality that we were striving for. These dogs carried large blocky heads, short and square muzzles, full body muscularity, heavier bone structure, and just all around physically powerful builds. The personality was still to be stable and docile towards humans, but we also washed out a lot of the dog aggression that the original blood carried. In our minds we had created the ultimate companion dog.

These dogs had to be registered with the UKC, because it was the only registry that acknowledged all the spawns as the same breed. So we began competing in the UKC conformation shows. The dogs did very well and in time were given a slang name called "Bullies". This name was given basically to describe their build and the thicker look of the style. In time, "Bully" bloodlines spawned all over the US.

Razors Edge was just one of many of the "bully" lines. Other "bully" lines that are popular are: Greyline, Gottiline, Gaff, Watchdog, Camelot, DeLaCruz, Butthead, Royal, Kaos, Gangus Kahn, and many more. Even the Razors Edge bloodline spawned into other Bully lines like Remyline and Shortyline. A new look and style had formed, and its popularity spread worldwide The "Bullies" had began to make their own name and place within the breed. The love for the "Bullies" spread way beyond the UKC conformation show world. In time, the show world pushed for a direction that did not favor the "Bully" style. This left a large group of extremely diverse people, who were left with nowhere to compete and show off their dogs.

In 2003, a concept for a new registry was created for the purpose of the promotion, registration, and competition of this style of the breed, the "Bullies". Fanciers of the "Bullies" were already gathering in large numbers at BBQ style events. People from all over, and of all races would get together and host BBQ style events for the "Bullies". This provided a more relaxed atmosphere, usually with DJ's playing music, people barbequing , vendors selling "Bully" paraphernalia and gear; and breeders, owners, and fanciers of the dogs in the hundreds. These gatherings drew in large amounts of people, and especially Bullies.

A new registry was formed to accommodate these people and their dogs, so they had a way to compete with their style of dog. The registry decided to use the slang name already given to this style, "Bullies"; but, they also decided to add the name "American" to the title. This was to properly represent the nation of the breed's origin. The breed now was given the formal name, "The American Bully". The kennel club registry used the name, "The American Bully Kennel Club", or "ABKC". Now the breed had a name, a registry, and a way to compete!

[outsitWrord]

As for the Bull Terrier, Boston Terrier and American Bulldogs, those clearly had influence of other breeds added in.

And there are those "in the know" who will say that clearly (at least some) AmBully bloodlines do as well ... even admitted to and then retracted by Dave Wilson in an interview which I can provide a link to if needed, when I find it again.

I would like to see the UKC stop lumping different/mixed breeds together as APBT ... whatever it takes.

[Preegovesem]

In rebuttal to my statement, you already stated that the Bull Terrier is not to be confused with the APBT ... in so many words more or less, so that still doesn't apply to APBTs.

No, just trying to show it DOES occur in many purebreds and that has been established.

I've just never heard of it in proven purebred and pedigreed ADBA APBTs.

Yer right....it's not proven in our breed.

Carla

[outsitWrord]

Thanks for the input LJ and brindlexpitt. You guys are much more knowledgeable on the bloodlines than I am. While there are certainly genetic faults in APBT bloodlines ... I just hadn't heard of dwarfism being one of them and IF dwarfism occurs in the AmBully from the APBT ... I wonder, from where. Those dogs you 2 mentioned are ADBA lines. Are they also registered with the UKC? The AST and UKC APBT is where the AmBully is said to come from.

[Preegovesem]

Yep, brindlepiptt, ABK nailed it back in 2009....even linked to some of the same links on chondrodsyplasia that I did.

THank you so much!

ABK
Choice Member


Join DateNov 2005LocationIn the doghousePosts4,358Images16 Re: shorty cowboy

CD is nothing to take lightly. If it only affected the bones it wouldn't be that much of an issue, but CD also adversely affects internal organs; such as the heart, kidney & liver & that can lead to a shorter lifespan in the dog.

Shorty Cowby, while a fantastic dog, who was very well bred & a good producer, has produced CD offspring. None are as severely affected as he is though. He has also produced unaffected offspring, but they are carriers of the defect.

And yes, Shorty Pearl had CD. CD is easy to see when you just examine the dog's front legs. However please note, all of BH's early dogs were fine, straight-legged specimens. But he started breeding mild CD dogs & ended up producing moderate CD dogs & eventually ended up producing what you see below, a severely affected CD dog. And this is not the only dog of this line I have seen like this from his line. This is what results from breeding with no regard for using CD stock:



(Hall's Tractor Trailer)

And even if you don't get any affected dogs, since CD is considered an autosomal recessive, you can get carriers who will continue to perpetuate the defect throughout the breed.

If you want to learn more about CD & how to identify it, please see the links below. One of the links is on CD in the Havanese, but all the info therein will apply to our breed as well:

Congenital Disorder Causes Front Leg Deformity in Dogs

Chondrodysplasia in Havanese

And just as a bit of GWI, the CD defect is the same which gives bullies their thick boned, short legged look. It could either have been selectively bred for within the gene pool or introduced by breeding to a CD breed such as the English Bulldog. Either way, a fancier who disregards CD & thinks it's OK to breed CD dogs, is really in fact no better than a bully breeder, as you both think it's OK to breed a dog displaying the same defect.

Just some food for thought.

[Nesskissabe]

very cute dog!

[Natashasuw]

What a cute pup!

I don't have anything else to add... xdogs' post is spot on

[Clielldub]

Interesting! Thanks everyone for your input. I figured it would be more complicated than expected. I've never really cared what government-like agencies label my dog as, I just wanted some clarification seeing as how I've never owned a purebred before.

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

well, i disagree with what has been said above breed-wise, but that is a never ending shit fest that yall can have at.

How so? I want to hear all sides of this.

[whimpykid]

Interesting! Thanks everyone for your input. I figured it would be more complicated than expected. I've never really cared what government-like agencies label my dog as, I just wanted some clarification seeing as how I've never owned a purebred before.

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------



How so? I want to hear all sides of this.

theres a good million threads of all of us arguing about whether bullies and apbts are different breeds. i wont be beating a dead horse tonight. lol

[Preegovesem]

And there are those "in the know" who will say that clearly (at least some) AmBully bloodlines do as well ... even admitted to and then retracted by Dave Wilson in an interview which I can provide a link to if needed, when I find it again.

I would like to see the UKC stop lumping different/mixed breeds together as APBT ... whatever it takes.

I would like to see more people step forward with proof about this mixed-breeding, which I am sure happens. There is not a lot the registries can do without PROOF.

Dwarfism is causing a LOT of what appears to be different breeds popping up in these dogs. And different forms of dwarfism in dogs pops up in many different breeds, where it is usually squashed very quickly. The breeders of "bullies" have capitalized on it, bred on it and from what I have read about "dwarfism in dogs" (google it -- lots of interesting pictures), it is recessive, which means it is VERY easily to get and KEEP (like blue).

A dwarf German Shepherd which pops up in a breeding of two purebred, registered German Shepherds is NOT a new breed. But you don't see breeders there trying to preserve it either.

Carla

[Preegovesem]

Never heard hide nor hair mention about dwarfism in APBTs until the Ambully and you came along. Can you point to ANY article or ANY discussion involving dwarfism in proven pedigreed American Pit Bull Terriers? Thank you.

Nope. Just seen 'em and am VERY suspicious. I will try to post more on this later. It's become an interest of mine and there are ways to confirm my suspicions, but it's going to be quite a project.

I have had dwarfs appear a couple of generations down from breedings OF MY own. And from a completely different breeding. Someone showed one at an Am Staf National Specialty several years ago (didn't do anything).

[Preegovesem]

Discussion of dwarfims on Bull Terrier board.

Dwarfism (aka achondroplasia))

---------- Post added at 12:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------

Very nice dogs Sagebrush !!! I mean that sincerely. Nice

Joe, I appreciate that and somehow I knew you'd like them. In all honesty, all are Am Stafs except the black one who is 95% Staf per pedigree (there is a Pit Bull way back there, so she is UKC only). Also, the third one down is not mine, but was sired by my dog.

[whimpykid]

actually, there are a few bulldogs that are questionable dwarfism, joe. (shorty cowboy for example) but i do not believe that rarity over paper hanging.

[whimpykid]

i really dont know of any place that has a decent shot of shorty cowboy. but he def throws the same traits, easily seen via the offspring and great offspring, etc.

[outsitWrord]

Thanks for the input LJ and brindlexpitt. You guys are much more knowledgeable on the bloodlines than I am. While there are certainly genetic faults in APBT bloodlines ... I just hadn't heard of dwarfism being one of them and IF dwarfism occurs in the AmBully from the APBT ... I wonder, from where. Those dogs you 2 mentioned are ADBA lines. Are they also registered with the UKC? The AST and UKC APBT is where the AmBully is said to come from.

Now, if you showed this picture without any other information, wanna bet it would get proclaimed an "American Bully" here?

Carla

I would have guessed some kind of hound cross