[Pyuvjzwf]

If you don't want to read a super long post just read the last paragraph.

Background on Izzy...
>>I picked her up last Friday, almost a week ago, I showed up at her owners house where she was tied to bumper of an old broken down Ford on a 4-5 foot chain. This had been where she was living for at least the past 4 months. She started out as an indoor puppy then spent all summer tied to the truck I guess. She actually belonged to a 16 year old, I think she was a xmas present... low and behold, now that 16 year old is never home to take care of Izzy minus the 2 mile walk every day. [I walk her for a min. of 3-4 hours a day, and that doesn't even wear her out!]

First week Izzy...
>>Her first day or two here all she did was run, run, run, run around the apartment. I took her on a walk and she was pull, pull, pull, lunge! She jumped on our counters, stuck her face in the toilet, growled at the neighbors, ruined a futon, etc etc. Now she is soooo much more calm inside. She went to work with my husband Monday-Wednesday this week and ran all of her energy off. Today I decided we would not go outside, but spend the whole day inside just to see how her energy and manners that she's learned would work. She's been pretty good. Just in the week I've had her she no longer jumps up on anything but the occassional jumping up on me. She stays out of our room and has no interest in the toilet FINALLY. She is seriouslly SO smart. I bought a training collar and now she walks at my side/behind me almost consistently too.

BUT here's the main point...
>>Izzy is at our home on a trial basis right now. If for whatever reason she doesn't work for us she's goes back "home". I know the lady and daughter that had her previously love her but they don't have the time nor the knowledge of the breed to exercise and socialize her. Now we are almost sure she is a keeper, under one condition... she is NOT human aggressive.
Her previous owner said if she bites anyone she would put her down. If she bites someone I won't be able to keep her, living in an apartment where childern and men are present that just wouldn't work for us. But I wouldn't want to send her back home to be put down.
Hypothetically, If this were to happen, what do you suggest I do? Try to find her a pit-bull knowledgeable forever home, try to find a trainer to work with us, etc? She has never bit anyone aggressively and is only 8 months old, she does playfully bite and we are working on stopping that with a firm NO and redirection. But one night my husband came home and when he came in she ran at him in a defensive stance [legs wide, head down, mohawk down her whole body, teeth showing] barking like mad not letting him in for a good 30 seconds... she hasn't done this again. Also I had her outside one night chained to the fence while I showered so she could have some fresh air, and I went outside and a neighbour guy said she has growled at him, he wasn't mad he was actually laughing thought she was cute. Then I went out and she backed up and growled at me with her hair on end. Again, she hasn't done this again.
[She is 8 months old and I believe got jipped on her puppy socialization so it might be a start from scratch kind of deal, which means I have even more to learn lol.]

[WapSaibiar]

A human aggressive dog should be put down, end of story. If she shows that she is human aggressive it doesn't matter who does it, you or her former owner so long as the right thing gets done. You and the dog will both be better off. For now I would say keep an eye on her and see if it was maybe an adjustment period or something but she doesn't need to hackle up and get defensive everytime somebody approaches her. If it continues I would worry about fear biting.

[Pyuvjzwf]

She is such a lover, if I sit down ANYWHERE she tries sitting on my lap lol. At the kitchen table she lays at my feet, and when we were at work she walked behind me for the whole 10 hours minus a nap here and there. It's awesome that she is so loyal to me already. But I want her to be able to love everyone just as much. Since she isn't a little harmless puppy, but now an 8 month old big powerful puppy what's the best way to introduce her to men, people of every color/ethnicity, all that stuff? I can't just carry her around like a pup and let her play with everyone :/
Her main issue seems to be with men, she hasn't growled at any in a couple days but she always lowers her head and latches her eyesight onto them as they pass.

[mpzoFeJs]

HA is not acceptable in any dog. If a dog bites someone, as far as I am concerned, that means a trip to the vet and pts. And I'm not just saying that. I had 2 rescues that turned out to be HA and both were put down within 24hrs of the bite. It sucks, but it is the most responsible thing to do. Too many stable dogs out there that need homes.

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 PM ----------

Of course, this does not apply to guardian breeds in the line of duty protecting against a real threat.

[DoniandaCoado]

It sounds like your best course of action would be to find a breed knowledgable positive trainer to work with. You can get ideas from the internet but none of us can really assess your dog without actually seeing the behavior. You could have a dog with the early signs of some genetic instability. However you could also just as likely have a puppy that is having some issues adjusting to her new home, or experiencing the second developmental fear stage, or is just rambuncious and undersocialized and the behavior is being read as aggressive.

It would be good to work with a trainer because the pup is young enough that there may be allot you can do environmentally and with training/desensitization to help the dog adjust; and also you'll have a second, opinion from a knowledgable objective observer that can help you make decisions with confidence...and in the worst case scenario you'll know you did everything you could to have a positive impact environmentally - if that doesn't work then you are looking at genetics.

[tLO0hFNy]

sounds like the previous owners knew enough to know to put a HA dog to sleep.

[Pyuvjzwf]

brindlexpitt... are you making a remark as to the fact i mentioned they seemed unknowledgeable to the need for these breeds to be socialized and their need for lots of attention, and exercise? Yet I am unknowledgeable to put a HA dog down? Because my question is based more on the moral aspect of it. I mean it's their fault they let a breed known for it's faults only become this way, because they knew nothing. Like I said she's been tied to the bumper of a truck for the past 4-6 months and not allowed to play with the kids, and saw very little of the adult lady and her 16 year old "owner".

It's not that I am anti-pts, i just wanted to know what you guys think morally and what you would consider HA I guess as well. I think that a dog who is positively HA and bites should definitely be put to sleep. but i just wanted to know some of your guys' opinions on what you think about her tendency to growl/what she did to my husband... is that enough to put her down, because to me it wasn't, and to him it wasn't either.

I mean Izzy gave me a good scare with my husband that night, but she didn't bite, as soon as I got up and said Izzy! she stopped then when my husband walked towards her she pissed everywhere. So because she didn't bite does that mean she isn't HA, just protective? Because I would hate to put her down just because of stuff like that when she is so young and has the potential to still have a chance at being raised properly. But I would also hate to see it turn into biting. Like I said she has next to no socialization, she isn't keen on men, she does not like being approached in the dark, and as far as DA I will know about that next Wednesday, as we are going to a dog walk where the local SPCA trainer/behaviourist will be with us to help answer some questions and assess her further. So far when she sees another dog she stops, and becomes fixated on them... to me that is enough for me not to take any chances letting her near them.

I live in Peace River, Alberta my access to breed specific trainers is next to none and we are 5-6 hours one way from the nearest big City so visiting a trainer if there is one there would be impossible or very very costly with gas/trainer fee's combined. But I am going to see what the SPCA trainer has to say, he has been at it for a long time and has worked with almost every dog that comes through our SPCA and I know some pitty and pitty mixes and other HA and DA dogs come in fairly regularly, some are put down and others are worked with/rehabilitated depending on their degree of DA, I think gender specific HA dog's are given the chance to find a home of female/male occupants only depending on the degree. [There's actually a pittyX there now]

[FoetAgerhot46]

sounds like shes needs some socializing!!! an di would get it in NOW! Since a lot seems to be unknown .. please be really careful! ps) i only read the last paragraph ;p

---------- Post added at 12:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------

ALSO. if the previous owner didnt do any type of socializing or training.. well, she hasnt learnt anything.. Give the dog some time,,, EXERCISE EXERCISE, then work with her. If she didnt have many rules before.. she didnt ,learn anything. IMO. a dog cant really learn anything if its not properly exercise. Once that excess energy is release.. they tend to take in a lil more of the training.

Give her a few months with good socializing**** and rules that you(everyone in ur house hold) uphold and are on point. Sometimes.. you need to ignore or redirect certian bad behavior.

DO NOT** AN DI MEAN PLEASE DO NOT do this breed anymore harm by GIVING THE DOG BACK TO THE PREVIOUS OWNER. If it comes down to it, that you can not control her /shes not learning or changing... then PLEASE have her pts.

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ----------

A dog who you can not TRUST or handle... needs to be pts. sending the dog to 'LIVE IN HARMONY' in some BS place is garbage. I can find you mmm.. 100 Pit Bulls RIGHT NOW THIS VERY SECOND that will be pts and are rated bynumerous evaluators in multiple situations are NO CONCERN...so to keep on that one can not handle/ human aggressive.. should be left to keep their diginity and pts. FOR THE BREED IN A WHOLE.

[Pyuvjzwf]

kamikaze... exactly what i have been thinking! she is just too smart and too willing for me to give up on! i have had her for a week, for one week she has been an indoor dog and already SO much more manners than her first day here. she walks on a leash better, she doesn't jump on the table/counters etc. even if she is too much for us as far as energy goes or if she just doesn't fit our lifestyle, i just don't think i could give her back to her previous home just so she can sit on a chain and become worse because she gets no human interaction. she is only at our home on a trial basis, and she has known me a week and already will not leave my sight inside or out. [we took her to work for three days this week and she just followed me back and forth between the trees and a chipping truck for 10 hours! however she is never off leash in town or where other people/dogs are present]

i already love her so much and just want to make sure she gets the proper socializing, love, attention, exercise, etc etc so that she can live a good life be it with me or someone else. but i just hate to think if i had to give her back what would eventually become of her if she bites someone due to the fact she gets no love tied to that truck.

she is not at the point where I can not handle her, as i mentioned she walks at my side or behind me now, and when people pass she does become alert but always looks to me for a response, if I say No no, then she relaxes and I give her praise after they have passed and she has remained at ease. it's just her random outburst that i'm not sure how to view. to me it is lack of previous socializing/attention, to others it might be HA/a sign to put down?

[xpllmr]

It sounds like your best course of action would be to find a breed knowledgable positive trainer to work with. You can get ideas from the internet but none of us can really assess your dog without actually seeing the behavior. You could have a dog with the early signs of some genetic instability. However you could also just as likely have a puppy that is having some issues adjusting to her new home, or experiencing the second developmental fear stage, or is just rambuncious and undersocialized and the behavior is being read as aggressive.It would be good to work with a trainer because the pup is young enough that there may be allot you can do environmentally and with training/desensitization to help the dog adjust; and also you'll have a second, opinion from a knowledgable objective observer that can help you make decisions with confidence...and in the worst case scenario you'll know you did everything you could to have a positive impact environmentally - if that doesn't work then you are looking at genetics.

Best advice given. Find a reputable trainer. Have them observe the dog.

[Sheestgag]

HA has more than one face. What I am reading from your post is that you are dealing with Fear Agression. All the vocal warnings, defensive stance, the mohawk, growling at you & backing up. (So not Bulldog behaviour!)

I would bet that this dog has been abused and not socialized. (tied to an old bumper kinda explains that!!) Once a dog realizes that it can use aggression to achieve a goal - (in this case keeping the human away) - the dog will gradually access that aggressive behaviour more and more frequently and find security in that.

The esculation is that once the dog bites out of fear and realizes that the effect is greater than the warning, the access to biting to achieve a goal will be more readily accessed - then you have a serious problem.

8 months is still young and with some serious and committed effort and the correct training, this problem can be reversed. Expose her to her fears so that she can overcome them. Do not enforce her negative behaviour - enforce only her positive behaviour.

I need to close by saying that if the HA increases, you must do the responsible thing and have her put to sleep. (HA Bulldogs must not be relocated or rehomed - especially where fear is the base.)

Good luck

[mpzoFeJs]

I agree with Palamino. She hasn't bitten yet and if you work with her there is a chance she never will. But there is also a chance that she is just so mentally damaged she will always be untrustworthy.

She peed when you corrected her verbally and your husband approached her? I think that means she is scared of him and maybe all men in general. Maybe because she wasn't socialized. BUT I have been around dogs that were not socialized or who were extremely under socialized who did not behave that way. You have to consider genetics as the cause and not lack of socialization. You don't know where she came from or how she was bred and I doubt the owners were careful in selecting the pup or the breeder judging by the way they treated her before they let you have her. For all you know, one or both of her parents were HA or FA. And sometimes, even from good dogs, you get a pup who just isn't wired right in the head.

Sucks big that you don't have access to a trainer. Have you thought about trying to do online video training and eval with a behaviorist? Not ideal, but better than nothing. Could you find a trainer or behaviorist to work with you online and maybe use a web cam or have the trainer/behaviorist ask you to do certain things, record them and email to him/her so he/she can see how the dog reacts?

You said you love her already and that maybe she is just being protective. But a stable dog doesn't act that way when they are protective unless there is a very real threat. So many people with HA/FA dogs say protective as code word for dangerous. Having a person who is not emotionally involved evaluate her is very important because owners tend to be too emotionally involved to be as objective as they should.

[Pyuvjzwf]

Palamino... thanks! i think you gave me the best answer yet plus a couple other people's. i am thinking she has been hit by a man. when showed what you call "FA" towards my husband he just charged at her to show her he wasn't scared and that's about when she just pissed herself and the stopped, she actaully started wagging her tail and went and sat at his feet, not that I would want any other men to stand her up, but for her and my husband that seem to work. She loves him now, possibly just as much as me. i think she is more than workable, it's a matter of finding the best way that will work for her to get over her fears or whatever is wrong.

MJJ... Thanks also, are there any online sites you reccommend? I am going to try to get a meeting with the SPCA trainer, see if they can help at all with giving her an assessment as I know they have to do that with found and surrendered dogs. I hope it's nothing genetic/permanently engraved, because she seems very willing to listen to me and learn from me... but as you said she is most likely from careless breeders :/ I know who her breeders are via. the fact they are on facebook with her old owners so I may just take a visit to see their dogs/home.

[mpzoFeJs]

I don't know any websites. I'm a city gal and when I needed to find a trainer there were tons all over. It was just a matter of finding one I liked and that was only for basic puppy obedience.

I was thinking more of getting in touch with an individual trainer or behaviorist with breed experience and asking for long distance help since you are somewhat isolated. If you talk to the SPCA trainer maybe they or a breed specific rescue in Alberta could recommend someone.

Just remember it's important to find someone who is experienced and who isn't a frothing at the mouth save em all type. You need an honest and realistic opinion.

From what you say, I think she could be worked with and would be ok once she learns people won't hurt her and are nothing to be afraid of, but I am not a behaviorist and I haven't seen her. Plus, trying to change her mind could be a delicate thing that could go horribly wrong if not done correctly.

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

By the way, since she seems to take her cues from you very well, are you being careful not to pet or reassure her when she acts scared? Don't want to reinforce her fears.

When Ike was young he had a terrible fear of the trash cans and garage door. So, I took him by the trash cans and opened and closed the garage door with him on leash by me. I made sure to be calm and go about things like nothing was wrong because nothing was wrong. He got over it in a couple weeks. Not the same thing as your girls fear, but it taught me that if my dog is taking behavior cues from me it is important that I send the right signals.

[Pyuvjzwf]

I was justing thinking, this might be a little off my OP, buuut... I just got pissed thinking of it.
When I got there the lady came out with a 3-4lb puppy they had JUST purchased like a month ago or less. Now why on earth would she stick Izzy outside and forget about her for 4-6 months and get a little dog just because the little dog is smaller, less hyper? Izzy could have been a great inside dog and great with her kids if she would have kept her inside and givin her exercise. Izzy is doing AMAZING in my apartment, after a week her pent up energy is out and she just sits on the couch chewing her toys and following me around. Mind you I give her the proper exercise and correct her when she jumps up. Yesterday was a busy day and she stayed inside all day with me and STILL she was great.
Obviously once it was warm enough she was just kicked outside :/ then they moved on to another puppy.

Argh, so sad for her. Thanks again MJJ, I will see what I can find for rescue org's here to contact some breed specific trainers. I know there's a boxer rescue near me.

[VardyCodarexyz]

I think this pup deserves a chance at a good life. She needs lots of time socializing to help her get through her fears. Her life starting out was nothing but stress and abuse. If you have the time work closely with her with your family. Than start introducing new people slowly. New toys, new sounds all this can help the dog become more trusting. I know a dog who was abused for 2 yrs, kept in a small space and new nothing else but 4 walls. Now after lots of training and love and time he is living with a family of 4. He was aggressive now hes calm and trusting.

[Pyuvjzwf]

Yeah I don't pet or praise her in any way while we are on walks, when we pass people I just keep walking like I didn't see them, or I will wave an say hi to some of the men so she see's that I am friendly with everyone. If she gets fixated or tries to stop and stare I give her a correction and just keep walking. Most times one tug and she's like "oh okay, i'm coming!" Sometimes if she becomes fixated I will stop, tug and say "hey girl!" when she looks at me I then greet the person or dog and then I see Izzy will relax. She seems to be much better if I ignore her and just greet everyone first. I always greet the men coming in and out of our building first before letting them say hi to Izzy and this seems to be working. Letting her watch me.

I was told if she uses her eyes instead of her nose that I should poke her and redirect her focus.

[GenrieAB]

Ashley, have you tried contacting any of the pit bull rescues in Alberta? I can't remember where Peace River is, exactly, but it's far north, right? I do know that Pit Bulls For Life has a chapter in Edmonton and it's entirely possible they would have people in the rural areas as well.

It might be helpful to take any advice and also look into the advice you receive here and do what works best. I did get taken to task by one of the top folks at PBFL because I actually suggested a breakstick as an essential tool in pittie ownership; apparently I was promoting a stereotype and pits don't need breaksticks to break up a fight.

Oooooo...kaaayyyyy.... read the threads on here and you'll find it's the most effective way to break up a pittie fight, but hey, what do I know. However, there might be some help there in dealing with your dog's fear.

It sounds like you're doing the right things though. Good luck!

[Pyuvjzwf]

Thanks I was also told there is a rescue called "Alberta Pitbull Rescue" so I will have to google and find numbers and emails for both! and I have been using a "break stick" with izzy practicing breaking her off toys with the added command release it. I would say a break stick is about the only thing that will unlock her off anything.

Pulling back just makes it into a game/fight.

[GenrieAB]

Exactly! Plus when a dog's hind legs are being pulled -- or when their body is being pulled, period! -- their first instinct is to clamp down harder with their jaws. They are trying to hang on to regain stability.

Sounds like you're doing good with Izzy. I hope you can find some experienced trainer to help you determine whether the behaviour is just bad manners/fear stage or whether it's a real concern. Good for you for not just poo-poohing it off as no big deal.

Thanks I was also told there is a rescue called "Alberta Pitbull Rescue" so I will have to google and find numbers and emails for both! and I have been using a "break stick" with izzy practicing breaking her off toys with the added command release it. I would say a break stick is about the only thing that will unlock her off anything.

Pulling back just makes it into a game/fight.