[Doncarlito]

Just curious. I didn't thi k they did

[rXpX]

Hell no, American Pit Bull Terriers DID NOT come from AmStaffs! It's the other way around! The American Pit Bull Terriers were around for many years before the AmStaff. The Amstaff was created from the APBT....

[Arximedus]

If I'm remembering it right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't a Colby dog who was APBT used to set the breed standard when they started registering American Staffordshire Terriers?

[Doncarlito]

I was told that if your apbt isn't gamebred then it's not a real bylkdog but a staff

[Arximedus]

I think it matters a lot more to people than it does the dogs.

[KirillAristov]

in the begining they were the same , it"s just that the amstaff went down the show conformation route and the apbt stayed true to the gaming performence side of things. saying that though not all apbt are gamebred .

[Doncarlito]

Well I must be seeing RBI gs cause he didn't say apbt's came from staffs lol.

[egoldhyip]

I was told that if your apbt isn't gamebred then it's not a real bylkdog but a staff

that saying is pretty dang common and thats not how he meant it... lol SMH

[Doncarlito]

I can understand not calling staff an apbt but why call an apbt a staff

[vigraxtru]

It's the other way around, Amstaffs come from Apbt's. Some strains till today are genetically the same as Apbt's, but most of them aren't.

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 PM ----------

I can understand not calling staff an apbt but why call an apbt a staff

Howard Heinzl - 'When I start breeding for color I'll sure call them Staffordshires, because that's all they will be in a couple of generations'. That's why.

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

I was told that if your apbt isn't gamebred then it's not a real bylkdog but a staff

An Apbt is/was only called a bulldog when proven game. However most of the new kids throw the term 'bulldog' around when referring to Apbt's, just because they read that's what oldtimers used to call them.

[crazuMovies]

If I'm remembering it right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't a Colby dog who was APBT used to set the breed standard when they started registering American Staffordshire Terriers?

Well, you hear that a lot....here is my take on it after some research...

Colby's Primo - Myth or Fact?

I've heard the Primo story for years -- about how he was the model for the American Staffordshire Terrier standard. The story had always been on the edges of what I knew about the breed and I hadn't thought too much about it, until the advent of the Internet -- and then the story became quite pervasive and I was hearing it everywhere and it was used with authority.

So, curiosity got the best of me and I started doing a little digging. While I was in Texas, I had the advantage of picking the brains of people that have been in the breed longer than many of you have been alive and who had conversations with Mr. Wilford T. Brandon, founder of the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America and writer of the Standard.

In an article which appears in the 2002 Hoflin Annual, Wayne Brown writes (this information is NOT new, but Wayne has recently written a lot of it *down in a concise way in the STCA Quarterly and the Annuals):

"Bill Brandon was a fellow Texan and he told me that he wrote the Staffordshire Terrier standard using the UKC APBT Standard and the SBT Standard from England. Others have said that he also used the standard of the American Bull Terrier Club of Clay Center, Kansas and even others have said that he also used a famous dual registered UKC/ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier named Colby's Primo as a model for the Standard. The AKC approved the Standard on June 9, 1936".

In my conversations with Wayne, he tells me that he does remember Brandon telling him about using the SBT and UKC Standards, but does not remember him saying anything about Primo. Richard Gray (Rounders) says the same thing, adding "....and he (Brandon) talked a LOT!"

*Remember, the SBT had achieved recognition by the English Kennel Club in 1935. Jackie Fraser writes in "The American Staffordshire Terrier":

*"Brandon studied the Standards of other breeds while trading ideas with Jack Barnard and Joseph Dunn of England who were working to gain recognition for the SBT in their country. Utilizing this information along with a mental picture of the best Pit Bulls he had ever seen, he wrote the Standard for the breed which is still serving today."

So the author of the ST Standard, Brandon, kept in touch with his counterparts in England, and the English dog was granted recognition in 1935.

Fraser continues:

*"On May 23, 1936, the first official meeting of the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America took place. The Standard was adopted and a resolution was passed to grant full recognition to the breed under the name Staffordshire Terrier. On June 9, 1936, the fledgling club was advised that the AKC had granted the request.

So, we see that the Standard as written was adopted by STCA in May of 1936.*

I mention these dates because they become kind of important when you learn when Colby's Primo was whelped. According to a letter from STCA to Louis Colby in 1943, (in which AKC registration certificates were sent to Colby), Primo was whelped on May 29, 1935, sired by Colby's Brandy out of Colby's Mabel. This would have made Primo almost exactly one year old on the day the Standard was adopted by the STCA on May 23, 1936.*

Here is the SBT Standard which was in effect in 1936, so this is the one under which the breed achieved recognition in 1935:

GENERAL APPEARANCE - The SBT is a smooth-coated dog, standing about 15"-18" high at the shoulder. He should give the impression of great strength for his size, and although muscular should be active and agile.
HEAD - Short, deep through, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, short foreface, mouth level.
EARS - Rose, half prick and prick; these three to be preferred, full drop to be penalized.
EYES - Dark
NECK - Should be muscular and rather short.
BODY - Short back, deep brisket, light in loins with forelegs set rather wide apart to permit of chest development.
FRONT LEGS - *Straight, feet well padded, to turn out a little and showing no weakness at pasterns.
HIND LEGS - Hindquarters well muscled, let down at hocks like a terrier.
COAT - Short, smooth and close to skin.
TAIL - The tail should be of medium length tapering to a point and carried rather low; it should not curl much and may be compared with an old-fashioned pump handle.
WEIGHT - Dogs 28 - 38 lbs. Bitches 4 lbs. less.
COLOR - May be any shade of brindle, black, white, fawn or red, or any of these colors with white. Black and tan and liver not to be encouraged.
FAULTS TO BE PENALIZED - Dudley nose, light or pink eyes (rims), tail too long or badly curled, badly undershot or overshot mouths.

Any of that look familiar?


Now, the UKC American Pit Bull Terrier Standard in effect in 1936...


HEAD - Medium length, bricklike in shape, skull flat and widest at the ears, with prominent cheeks, free from wrinkles.
MUZZLE - Square, wide and deep, well pronounced jaws, displaying strength. Upper teeth to meet tightly over lower teeth, outside in front.
EARS - Cropped or uncropped (not important), should set high on head, and free from wrinkles.
EYES - Dark and round; should set far apart low down on skull.
NOSE - Black preferred with wide open nostrils.
NECK - Muscular, slightly arched, tapering from shoulder to head, free from loseness of skin.
SHOULDERS - Strong and muscular with wide sloping shoulder blades.
BACK - Short and strong, slightly slopng from withers to rump.*
Slightly arched at loins which should be slightly tucked.
CHEST - Deep but not too broad, with wide sprung ribs.
RIBS - Close, well-sprung, with deep back ribs.
TAIL - Short in comparison to size, set low and tapering to a fine point, not carried over the back.
LEGS - Large round boned, with straight upright pasterns reasonably strong. Feet to be of medium size. Gait should be light and springy. No rolling or pacing.
THIGHS - Long with muscles developed. Hocks down and straight.
COAT - Glossy, short and stiff to the touch.
COLOR - Any color or marking permissible.
WEIGHT - Not important. Females preferred from thirty to fifty pounds. Males from thirty-five to sixty pounds.

I'll let YOU find your own AST Standard and compare..

It seems fairly obvious what sources Brandon drew on for his Standard. Primo's birthdate just seems too late for him to have been used the way the "legend" states -- as the "model" for the Staffordshire Terrier Standard. Richard Gray and Wayne Brown do not remember Brandon ever mentioning Primo and Brandon "talked a LOT!" Neither Jackie Fraser or Richard Pascoe mention Primo in their books on the breed.

So how did the Primo legend get started? Wayne Brown conjectures that AFTER the fact, Colby declared he had on his yard a dog that matched the AKC Standard - and he very well could have in Primo, who appears to be a very nice dog from the pictures. But was he the MODEL for the Staffordshire Terrier Standard?

Carla

[vigraxtru]

If I'm remembering it right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't a Colby dog who was APBT used to set the breed standard when they started registering American Staffordshire Terriers?

Exactly, in 1936 (long after the Apbt was created, and also long after the Apbt was recognized) the AKC started registering American Pitbull Terriers under the name Staffordshire Terriers. The standard was based upon Colby's Primo, and the organization specifically didn't use the word 'Pit Bull', because it wanted to create a pitbull-type dog that wasn't used for actual pitfighting. This ment registered Staffordshire Terriers and Staffordshire Terrier breeders started breeding for conformation shows (looks) solely, disgarding the true purpose of the breed.

[crazuMovies]

the organization specifically didn't use the word 'Pit Bull', because it wanted to create a pitbull-type dog that wasn't used for actual pitfighting.

The breed club tried to get "American Pit Bull Terrier" as the first choice. When AKC said no, they tried for "American Bull Terrier" and that was shot down by the politically powerful Bull Terrier Club of America.

Carla

---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

Also, there was no restriction on white in the original Staf standard. Again, the BTCA had something to say about that..

[viagra-kaufen]

Carla, this is excellent. Do you have this on a website, or as a document that could be shared? I'd love to post a link on the RPB website and forum.

Well, you hear that a lot....here is my take on it after some research...

Colby's Primo - Myth or Fact?

I've heard the Primo story for years -- about how he was the model for the American Staffordshire Terrier standard. The story had always been on the edges of what I knew about the breed and I hadn't thought too much about it, until the advent of the Internet -- and then the story became quite pervasive and I was hearing it everywhere and it was used with authority.

So, curiosity got the best of me and I started doing a little digging. While I was in Texas, I had the advantage of picking the brains of people that have been in the breed longer than many of you have been alive and who had conversations with Mr. Wilford T. Brandon, founder of the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America and writer of the Standard.

In an article which appears in the 2002 Hoflin Annual, Wayne Brown writes (this information is NOT new, but Wayne has recently written a lot of it *down in a concise way in the STCA Quarterly and the Annuals):

"Bill Brandon was a fellow Texan and he told me that he wrote the Staffordshire Terrier standard using the UKC APBT Standard and the SBT Standard from England. Others have said that he also used the standard of the American Bull Terrier Club of Clay Center, Kansas and even others have said that he also used a famous dual registered UKC/ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier named Colby's Primo as a model for the Standard. The AKC approved the Standard on June 9, 1936".

In my conversations with Wayne, he tells me that he does remember Brandon telling him about using the SBT and UKC Standards, but does not remember him saying anything about Primo. Richard Gray (Rounders) says the same thing, adding "....and he (Brandon) talked a LOT!"

*Remember, the SBT had achieved recognition by the English Kennel Club in 1935. Jackie Fraser writes in "The American Staffordshire Terrier":

*"Brandon studied the Standards of other breeds while trading ideas with Jack Barnard and Joseph Dunn of England who were working to gain recognition for the SBT in their country. Utilizing this information along with a mental picture of the best Pit Bulls he had ever seen, he wrote the Standard for the breed which is still serving today."

So the author of the ST Standard, Brandon, kept in touch with his counterparts in England, and the English dog was granted recognition in 1935.

Fraser continues:

*"On May 23, 1936, the first official meeting of the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America took place. The Standard was adopted and a resolution was passed to grant full recognition to the breed under the name Staffordshire Terrier. On June 9, 1936, the fledgling club was advised that the AKC had granted the request.

So, we see that the Standard as written was adopted by STCA in May of 1936.*

I mention these dates because they become kind of important when you learn when Colby's Primo was whelped. According to a letter from STCA to Louis Colby in 1943, (in which AKC registration certificates were sent to Colby), Primo was whelped on May 29, 1935, sired by Colby's Brandy out of Colby's Mabel. This would have made Primo almost exactly one year old on the day the Standard was adopted by the STCA on May 23, 1936.*

Here is the SBT Standard which was in effect in 1936, so this is the one under which the breed achieved recognition in 1935:

GENERAL APPEARANCE - The SBT is a smooth-coated dog, standing about 15"-18" high at the shoulder. He should give the impression of great strength for his size, and although muscular should be active and agile.
HEAD - Short, deep through, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, short foreface, mouth level.
EARS - Rose, half prick and prick; these three to be preferred, full drop to be penalized.
EYES - Dark
NECK - Should be muscular and rather short.
BODY - Short back, deep brisket, light in loins with forelegs set rather wide apart to permit of chest development.
FRONT LEGS - *Straight, feet well padded, to turn out a little and showing no weakness at pasterns.
HIND LEGS - Hindquarters well muscled, let down at hocks like a terrier.
COAT - Short, smooth and close to skin.
TAIL - The tail should be of medium length tapering to a point and carried rather low; it should not curl much and may be compared with an old-fashioned pump handle.
WEIGHT - Dogs 28 - 38 lbs. Bitches 4 lbs. less.
COLOR - May be any shade of brindle, black, white, fawn or red, or any of these colors with white. Black and tan and liver not to be encouraged.
FAULTS TO BE PENALIZED - Dudley nose, light or pink eyes (rims), tail too long or badly curled, badly undershot or overshot mouths.

Any of that look familiar?


Now, the UKC American Pit Bull Terrier Standard in effect in 1936...


HEAD - Medium length, bricklike in shape, skull flat and widest at the ears, with prominent cheeks, free from wrinkles.
MUZZLE - Square, wide and deep, well pronounced jaws, displaying strength. Upper teeth to meet tightly over lower teeth, outside in front.
EARS - Cropped or uncropped (not important), should set high on head, and free from wrinkles.
EYES - Dark and round; should set far apart low down on skull.
NOSE - Black preferred with wide open nostrils.
NECK - Muscular, slightly arched, tapering from shoulder to head, free from loseness of skin.
SHOULDERS - Strong and muscular with wide sloping shoulder blades.
BACK - Short and strong, slightly slopng from withers to rump.*
Slightly arched at loins which should be slightly tucked.
CHEST - Deep but not too broad, with wide sprung ribs.
RIBS - Close, well-sprung, with deep back ribs.
TAIL - Short in comparison to size, set low and tapering to a fine point, not carried over the back.
LEGS - Large round boned, with straight upright pasterns reasonably strong. Feet to be of medium size. Gait should be light and springy. No rolling or pacing.
THIGHS - Long with muscles developed. Hocks down and straight.
COAT - Glossy, short and stiff to the touch.
COLOR - Any color or marking permissible.
WEIGHT - Not important. Females preferred from thirty to fifty pounds. Males from thirty-five to sixty pounds.

I'll let YOU find your own AST Standard and compare..

It seems fairly obvious what sources Brandon drew on for his Standard. Primo's birthdate just seems too late for him to have been used the way the "legend" states -- as the "model" for the Staffordshire Terrier Standard. Richard Gray and Wayne Brown do not remember Brandon ever mentioning Primo and Brandon "talked a LOT!" Neither Jackie Fraser or Richard Pascoe mention Primo in their books on the breed.

So how did the Primo legend get started? Wayne Brown conjectures that AFTER the fact, Colby declared he had on his yard a dog that matched the AKC Standard - and he very well could have in Primo, who appears to be a very nice dog from the pictures. But was he the MODEL for the Staffordshire Terrier Standard?

Carla