[nancywind]

I need to rant. So i been seeing post about dog fighting and crap and how its so crule and how people who do that are "pussies". First why the hell do people get a APBT IF they dont like there TRAIT? You people need to stop PLAYING GOD! this world isnt perfect so quit trying to make it perfect with your oh this is so wrong crap. "Animals dont got voices but we do" what kinda of crap is that? Has it occured to you people that they love to do this? I hate to say it but you people are the ones who are destroying the APBT. If you dont like there dog agressive trait go get a dam TEDDY BEAR. The APBT isnt for the soft hearted!

[gWhya5ct]

Has it occured to you people that they love to do this?

I'm pretty certain that most people have never stopped to consider that an animal that has been bred for a purpose over a number of decades, and was very good at that purpose, actually liked that purpose and looked forward to fulfilling it.

Because that purpose is illegal, no longer fashionable, socially objectionable, etc. etc. everything should just magically change and these dogs should now love all the other dogs out there, sit around camp fires together singing doggy songs, etc. etc.

I have a mutt, 4 years old, spayed, absolutely no reason to fight her if it was legal. If it was would I? What's the point, she's a mutt and wasn't intended for that.

Now someone who has a some pure stock off good lines that wants those lines to continue and stay true, what choices do they have. Turn them into something else, go underground, or leave the country and keep them going.

But eventually the choices will be turn them into something else, or go underground.

Eventually we will end up with just the "turn them into something else" dogs left.

And they do it because they love them.

[Goalseexere]

i couldnt agree more, i think these people get this breed of dog because they want to be part of a cause,these dogs dont need anyone out for a cause that is against these dogs,we have enough trouble with bsl, yet these animal planet watching freaks dont seem to understand,they call dogs doing what they love to do cruel,but they dress up their mutt in stupid dog clothing,let their mutt get fat from eating too much or end up in a situation where their mutt kills something because they dont know jack about the dogs.I see not letting a dog do what it loves as being cruel,next time im on facebook and i see someones overweight mutt in a pic you can sure bet im going to turn them into facebook and see how they like it

[Ceakicknunk]

I have seen it stated over and over here that APBT's are DA. I have also seen many proclaimed fanciers of the APBT ask what can be done to "Fix" their dogs DA. They claim to "Love" the breed in one breath while refusing to accept that prolific trait in another. Some people are just never happy. Just like people who get a gaurdian breed then worry about them barking at strangers.

[Goalseexere]

I have seen it stated over and over here that APBT's are DA. I have also seen many proclaimed fanciers of the APBT ask what can be done to "Fix" their dogs DA. They claim to "Love" the breed in one breath while refusing to accept that prolific trait in another. Some people are just never happy. Just like people who get a gaurdian breed then worry about them barking at strangers.

thats because they aren't real fanciers and are looking to fill a hole in their useless lives by wanting to try to fix what isnt broken

[ehib8yPc]

Just want to say that I agree with y'all (as you know) and that neither one of them posting was me (even though they may sound a hell of a lot like me)

[vasyasvc]

Look, I'm against dog fighting. I have no problem with dog aggression in the breed. Mine isn't dog aggressive. If she was, I'd manage it.

Long before I even got Sinead, I was a very vocal defender of APBTs, explaining that HA and DA aren't the same thing. However, I do agree that people who think it can just be trained out of a dog need to not own the breed. I actually see the same thing happen on my Border Collie message board. The agility type folk on there immediately start suggesting behaviorists and all that crap whenever somebody brings up that their Border Collie is DA. These people just respond with, "Oh, he's just reactive and you can train that away." Naturally, it's the stockdog people who come in and basically say, "Yeah, some dogs don't like other dogs. Keep them away from other dogs."

[corolaelwis]

And if you don't like what your originally making this post about... Why don't you/haven't you left it?

[ovenco]

Look, I'm against dog fighting. I have no problem with dog aggression in the breed. Mine isn't dog aggressive. If she was, I'd manage it.

Long before I even got Sinead, I was a very vocal defender of APBTs, explaining that HA and DA aren't the same thing. However, I do agree that people who think it can just be trained out of a dog need to not own the breed. I actually see the same thing happen on my Border Collie message board. The agility type folk on there immediately start suggesting behaviorists and all that crap whenever somebody brings up that their Border Collie is DA. These people just respond with, "Oh, he's just reactive and you can train that away." Naturally, it's the stockdog people who come in and basically say, "Yeah, some dogs don't like other dogs. Keep them away from other dogs."

I agree with you a lot. I'm fine with DA being a trait in this breed. I'm a one dog at a time kinda girl so no problem there. Wouldn't take ANY breed to a dog park and have no issues at all keeping Athena safely away from other dogs if she ever does become DA so to me, even if she never develops it, I'm ready for it.
Anyone who believes DA can be trained out of a dog needs to do a lot of learning before getitng any dog, escpecially ones who are geneticaly predisposed to DA.I myself am perfectly fine with a DA dog, however just because a dog is DA doesn't mean it should fight. BTW I had no idea DA was common in border collies
That being said, anyone who feels APBTS should be kept as fighters because they love doing it, sometimes what someone or something loves isn't what is best for them.

[gWhya5ct]

I wonder how many of the people who are against APBT's doing what they were bred for actually have a purebred APBT...

I'm thinking the vast majority have mutts and have never seen what a purebred APBT really is. But they do know what's best for them...

We never let Indy fight, but damn if she didn't want to.

[DoctorGordanBens]

I need to rant. So i been seeing post about dog fighting and crap and how its so crule and how people who do that are "pussies". First why the hell do people get a APBT IF they dont like there TRAIT? You people need to stop PLAYING GOD! this world isnt perfect so quit trying to make it perfect with your oh this is so wrong crap. "Animals dont got voices but we do" what kinda of crap is that? Has it occured to you people that they love to do this? I hate to say it but you people are the ones who are destroying the APBT. If you dont like there dog agressive trait go get a dam TEDDY BEAR. The APBT isnt for the soft hearted!

man what

Possession of a trait does not require said trait be expressed in a specific manner. The trait of dog aggression doesn't suddenly equate to "it's totally rad to fight dogs". The trait of dog aggression only means that the dog is likely to be aggressive towards other dogs. How owners choose to deal with the trait is a choice: a responsible owner should be aware of such traits, but not use them as an excuse to allow abuse to occur. Abuse is abuse regardless of how much your dog.

By-the-by: Using people who deny dog aggression in any breed is a straw-man argument. These irresponsible owners don't make your position automatically valid. You're better off trying to justify (your unjustifiable) position than shifting focus.

Dogs do not get to choose what they do or do not like, be it fighting or eating their own crap. They really don't have a voice and have not for the last 15,000 years. People have been guiding the development of dogs for that long and we need to honor that.

I love my pit. I recognize that dog aggressiveness may develop in her behavior one day. I have altered my lifestyle, my family's lifestyle, and my home to manage her energy and potential issues. You're right that the world isn't perfect, but if you make decisions that don't involve the commandment from the sage Bill and Theodore, you're not doinganything to improve the world.

"Be excellent to each other."

Dogs are included in that "each other" part.

If you choose to fight or support dog fighting any any way whatsoever, Bill and Ted shake their head at you in shame.

[gWhya5ct]

The OP did mention a trait, however the one he should have used that has thus far been completely ignored by everyone is whether or not the dog is game.

A DA dog is no big deal, a lot of dogs and a lot of breeds are DA, but they aren't game.

History documents how that was proven. That is what the American Pit Bull Terrier was bred for. A shelter mutt may have some of it, you might find a breeder with some dogs that still have it, but you will never be able to prove it.

I really understand where some of the others on here are coming from the more I deal with this as they have been saying all along that it may look like an APBT and it's papers may say it's an APBT, but without the drive, without being able to prove the dog, you don't really know if you have an APBT.

May as well get a shelter mutt.

[DoctorGordanBens]

I ctrl+Fed and found no use of "game" before yours, My pit is Sasha. You're saying the OP should have used game in place of DA maybe?

Gameness is a willingness to fight in the face of potential injury, yes? What purpose does this serve outside of developing a fighting dog? I can see its use for guard dogs, but from what I've seen, pit breeds are not intended to be (and make poor) guard dogs. Does a more fearless dog help in other competitive sports? I am asking this question out of geniune curiosity; I promise I'm not trying to lead anyone with this line of questions.

Does a dog, that is known to be the offspring of two 100% verified APBTs, that lacks gameness get called something other than an APBT or is it just considered lame (not in a derogatory fashion, just in that it fails to meet specific requirements)? Breed is determined by genetics and genetics only, not by how those genes play out in behavior. Behavior should be used to judge the quality of a dog, not what breed you want to call it.

Full disclosure: My dog is a shelter-mutt. I will likely only ever own shelter mutts. I am not interested in the genetic purity of any breed of dog that I own, but I am interested in, recognize, and respect, why some value genetics so greatly.

[gWhya5ct]

Gameness

That link will take you to a few articles discussing gameness in the dogs and how the gentle, people friendly, stable and fearless dog that people are so fond of is a result of breeding for gameness.

This is where everyone keeps missing the point. The dogs you love, the non-fighting qualities you think make them so wonderful, are a direct result of the intentional breeding for gameness, the end result of breeding them to be fighters (and I mean fighters in the traditional sense, not in the modern, sensationalized, and exaggerated perception people have due to the media and movies).

Give that a read, then see what questions it might answer for you or where it leads you to other questions. It's very interesting I think.

---------- Post added at 05:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 AM ----------

Does a dog, that is known to be the offspring of two 100% verified APBTs, that lacks gameness get called something other than an APBT or is it just considered lame (not in a derogatory fashion, just in that it fails to meet specific requirements)? Breed is determined by genetics and genetics only, not by how those genes play out in behavior. Behavior should be used to judge the quality of a dog, not what breed you want to call it.

Well long term the concern with many is that the qualities that were crafted into the breed known as the American Pit Bull Terrier will become lost and watered down as a result of not breeding for the gameness of the dogs.

So it really depends on who you talk to as to what they are going to call it. That genetically it is an APBT is not so much the issue I think as that temperamentally (or spiritually perhaps) it is no longer an APBT.

The more you look into this, the more you realize just how much work went into creating the breed and the qualities that so many desire are a direct result of a heritage they can't even bring themselves to read about and learn the realities of. And from everything I have come across there is no guarantee that breeding two good, solid game dogs would result in a litter with dogs of equal caliber.

When I talk to people about how you "raise" a dog I am thinking about the whole package, training, health care, experiences (and when) and the reinforcement of desired behavior and the efforts to manage or eliminate undesired behavior.

Now think about that given a much longer time frame than the life of one dog but across a number of generations. The breeders over time did this and literally crafted the dog. But that craftsmanship is being lost.

Eventually, even from dogs that can trace their lineage back far enough to solid dogs that had been bred for their gameness and which were then proven, those qualities are going to begin slipping away. The good dogs are going to start having more pups that should have been culled but weren't, then those pups will grow up to have pups, etc.

You could look at this like prohibition. Well meaning people (so we are told) wanted to protect society from the evils of alcohol so they made it illegal throughout the land. A lot of people loved alcohol, but those well meaning people knew what was "best for them."

Prohibition ushered in a period of some of the most violent crime in our history, made outlaws out of many otherwise good, upstanding citizens, and was eventually repealed because it caused more problems than it solved.

One could view what has happened with dogs the same way, only in this case the breed these well meaning people are trying to save will probably be destroyed.

[DoctorGordanBens]

Thank you for the link. I agree that the qualities your link refers to are exactly what makes my dog so great.

I doubt that's what youknow2 was referring to. At all. Even a little bit.

Is there a distinction between gameness and perseverence or determination? Does there need to be? I'll accept that it's just a term that means exactly those things, but I'm curious as to the etymology of the word.

I can definitely see that definition of gameness in my dog. She is intensely disappointed if random-person-walking-across-the-street-and-a-block-away fails to take interest in her. She is also capable of relentlessly chasing after a whisp of light that skittered across the floor before disappearing 10 minutes ago.

I think this thread has been steered in a direction other than what was intended by the OP (but that's not a bad thing).

---------- Post added at 05:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------

D'oh, I didn't see the second half of your reply.

I certainly understand breeders and their noble intentions in crafting a quality breed. I can't ignore the 12,000 bully-something-or-others that are going to pass through the Maricopa shelters every year, but sadly I can only make a .00008% dent in that number about once a decade, too. (Not entirely true, discouraging the rampant abuse of breeding and ill-using dogs helps too). If there were no dogs in the shelters I would gladly seek out a breeder. Though I'll never disparage or look down on anyone choosing to go with a well-bred dog.

I guess I wish I could have my cake and eat it too.

[gWhya5ct]

What I find interesting is when everyone talks about DA the story unfolds of a dog straining at the leash, growling and barking and just wanting to get at the other dog and they find it acceptable.

I think it was the last article on that link that described something that I have seen and to be honest with you I prefer in a dog.

A calm, confident silence.

In both cases if the dog is turned loose it will be going after the other dog, but the latter case is much easier to control.

While I've no doubt there were gnashing/thrashing dogs in the past I don't think that was ever the goal. But that quiet, staring, tensed up dog that is unafraid and full of confidence I think is disappearing.

Unfortunately to many people the gnashing/thrashing Hollywood image of a fighting dog appears to be what far too many people think is the norm.

And that had absolutely nothing to do with the gameness of a dog.

[nancywind]

The OP did mention a trait, however the one he should have used that has thus far been completely ignored by everyone is whether or not the dog is game.

A DA dog is no big deal, a lot of dogs and a lot of breeds are DA, but they aren't game.

History documents how that was proven. That is what the American Pit Bull Terrier was bred for. A shelter mutt may have some of it, you might find a breeder with some dogs that still have it, but you will never be able to prove it.

I really understand where some of the others on here are coming from the more I deal with this as they have been saying all along that it may look like an APBT and it's papers may say it's an APBT, but without the drive, without being able to prove the dog, you don't really know if you have an APBT.

May as well get a shelter mutt.

thank you my pit Sasha. I should of used that trait better. You summed it up better

[zdlupikkkdi]

I wonder how many non-hardcore fanciers actually have a game bred APBT...or "the real deal" as the fanciers like to say.

Do they really make their way to shelters and rescues in abundant numbers so that they can be adopted into the general population?

The AmStaffs, UKC APBT's and AmBUllys don't count - that is not what we are talking about.

I know there are plenty of breeders (according to the ADBA APBT Gazette) saying they have dogs from gamebred lines that they are anxious to sell...and they seem more concerned about getting your credit card number than they do about having a conversation about philosophy and whether or not the dog is a good fit for your home. But still, people must actively seek out these dogs; and they have to - to some minimal extent - know where to look - which means they at least know what it is they are looking for.

I guess what I am trying to say is it really has imo become apples and oranges. I don't want a gamebred APBT, in that I certainly wouldn't seek one out. If one fell on my doorstep accidentally then I would have to manage it because that is simply me: I don't give dogs back and I don't kill them unless they're trying really hard to kill me.

But that said; the dogs I like - the shelter dogs, the AmStaffs, the UKC APBTs and yes even some of the AMBullys are NOT APBT's in the eyes of (I would wager) everyone making a case that is pro - dog fighting; so why in the world would the fanciers even be concerned about my position on dog fighting?

Do my preferred breeds tend to be DA...yes. Is it a trait I like? Not especially. But then again I can't name a breed of dog that doesn't have at least 1 trait that I dislike. I will take DA over drooling. I would prefer neither - but it doesn't work that way. However just because I have a DA dog, does not mean that I have an ethical obligation to allow the dog to fulfill that desire. Many, many dogs are no longer fulfilling the purpose they were originally bred for because in many instances...society has changed and there is simply no need for it anymore. However people have decided that they still like the actual dog and want to keep it around. So what happens is you get modified versions. You end up with very few lines of "working dogs" that are still being worked and doing what they are "bred for". And many more lines of show and pet dogs...that have aclimated and changed over time to fit in better with their environment.

So the same can (and probably always will) hold true for the APBT as well. I am certain that there are pockets of individuals in this country (and of course abroad where it is legal) keeping these dogs "true to form". The other thing I am fairly certain of is that they are not on the internet discussing it; and offering their dogs to random strangers - unless they of course live in a country where it is legal.

What I don't understand is why people, when it is convenient can't wait to point out that the shelter dogs, AmStaffs, UKC APBTs and AMbully aren't real APBTs; but then get frustrated and annoyed that people who have these dogs that are actually much further removed from their dog fighting roots (and that are in fact in many instances being bred specifically for other purposes: pet, agility, weight pull etc.) ; aren't avid dog fighting fanciers.

[vasyasvc]

I agree with you a lot. I'm fine with DA being a trait in this breed. I'm a one dog at a time kinda girl so no problem there. Wouldn't take ANY breed to a dog park and have no issues at all keeping Athena safely away from other dogs if she ever does become DA so to me, even if she never develops it, I'm ready for it.
Anyone who believes DA can be trained out of a dog needs to do a lot of learning before getitng any dog, escpecially ones who are geneticaly predisposed to DA.I myself am perfectly fine with a DA dog, however just because a dog is DA doesn't mean it should fight. BTW I had no idea DA was common in border collies
That being said, anyone who feels APBTS should be kept as fighters because they love doing it, sometimes what someone or something loves isn't what is best for them.

DA is common in a lot of breeds. A BC isn't going to be game like an APBT is, but a decent amount of them aren't fans of other dogs. Mick is very dog-selective. He got into it with another dog last night for getting in his face. It wasn't serious, but the dog got too close, and he let them know he wasn't happy.

[hubua990]

The whole thing about artificial selection is that you can actually change what you don't like if you have the available trait to select for/against.