[GaryBulguihb]

Ladies & gentleman, I have a bit of a problem. I person who I respect had a litter. The gyp was bred once by the male he selected & once by a blue dog his neighbor owned by accident. He said none of the pups were blue so the blue dog could not be the sire. But as we all know, the gene that causes blue is recessive. So I advised that if the gyp didn't carry that recessive gene no mattter if she were bred to 100 blue dogs it would not show in her pups. He assured me he would DNA the litter, but has not! Out of the litter he kept some, gave some to the stud's owner & gave one to a friend. I do not know if he disclosed the fact the pups may not be off the selected stud. What should I do?? I have no doubt that 1 or all 3 of these people will breed these dogs in the future. This young man seems to be a real good guy & is just getting in the dogs. I advised him that if he is caught paper hanging it would be something that would forever follow him in his career in the dogs. I am very worried for both him & the dogs. What can I do - help!!

[Kinds Of Pain Meds]

why does it concern you that much?

they are his dogs, he is free to do whatever he wants to do, nothing you can do I'm afraid of except maybe trying to talk to him...

[GaryBulguihb]

I guess the bigger question is why DOESN'T it concern you?

I am concerned b/c he is just getting in the dogs & came to me for help. He was very open & willing to learn until it came time to spend the money to get the pups DNA'd. Now he has shut down on me. This is a young fellow new in the game. I want to get him started off well, not become another paper hanging puppy peddler.

Plus, what about the people who buy dogs off these pups? How would you feel if you found out your pup wasn't bred as represented? I know I would not be happy.

Blessings ...

[WGfg4CCZ]

I guess keep trying to get it through his head that it is a big deal, and that if he ever wants to be truly respected, then he has to do things right, and not shady. Is there another dog person that he admires besides you, that you two could have a talk with him, and explain to him that you just want him to have success in life?

[bWn4h8QD]

ABK, I think that we can do what we can and nothing more. If you have gone out of your way extensively to explain how important something like that is, and there is no response, just let it go. Some people are just hard headed and MUST learn the hard way despite efforts for good people. Obviously he is not concerned for the puppies, more for his finances. He CAN NOT say he didn't know if this comes back on him

As far as the buyers, I have no sympathy for anyone who gets a puppy off of him. You say this guy is a newbie?? Well, rule number one for buying a puppy is to make sure you get it from a reputable source and check your references. If the purchasers of those puppies were to do research they probably would NOT buy from him. I doubt someone willing to hang papers is top notch in any other department either. (health testing, breeding proven dogs, etc etc). I do not personally have to worry about dogs being bred differently than I thought because I do my research before taking one.

Your care about this situation is amazing. I honestly commend you for it because I wouldn't have even given it a second thought. My thoughts? Keep giving him excellent information, don't step back on your beliefs and moral, and always let him know the right way to do things. If he is serious about being in the dogs, he will listen. If not, then we can weed out the backyard breeders early.

[GaryBulguihb]

Hmmm. I do not know if there is another dog person, but I know he respects his pastor. Perhaps having him get his pastor's advice on this may help since if represents these pups or any pups off them in the future as off a certain bloodline that they're not, that is deception & lying.

I feel so much for this young man. Over our conversations I have connected with him & if it comes out that these pups are sired by the blue dog (which I think was an AmBully) instead of the selected sire this mistake will follow him for his career in the dogs.

I have told this to him paper hanging is serious, serious business & doing so could scar his reputation for life. He seemed to receive this, but perhaps he has not.

However, I will give him kudos for keeping the pups in his circle. There are 3 left (I assume the others passed away) & those 3 went to himself, the stud owner & a friend. But I do not know if he disclosed the possibility that the pups may not be off the selected sire & I'm willing to bet one of these fellows (if not more) will breed these pups in the future.

He told me he was having financial issues & could not afford to DNA the litter, which I can totally relate to - but assured me that would be DNA'd before they went to their new homes, which it now seems they were not.

I told him to have everyone keep the pups & save up for DNA (it would be $120 total per person) before breeding which *should* be about 2 years from now. That should allow for more than enough time for them to save up.

Blessings ...

[Cuccuccaltefe]

Honesty is going a long way, I hope he listens to you and keeps the respect he deserved from you - it is something that is not sold in stores, and I hope he understands that.

[GaryBulguihb]

I hope so too. I think he *may* think twice if he sees that I am not the only one that thinks how he is going about this isn't wise. When he first came to me with the info about the blue dog getting to his female we discussed what his options were. He did not want to spay-abort b/c he wanted to breed the bitch again in the future. He did not want to cull the litter b/c they may still have been off the selected sire. So he said he was going to wait & DNA. Now all of a sudden this morning he says he is "convinced" the litter is off the selected sire. So I doubt DNA will be done at all. I just hope this young man comes to his senses before irreparable damage is done to his reputation.

Blessings ...

[Cuccuccaltefe]

Why people cannot come through is beyond my understanding...
You know you have a litter on the ground, you know you may have an opps litter at that.
How much is the DNA test? Does it worth the risk of the pups having possible genetic, temperament issues? I understand the pups are being kept in the close circle, but how many of them might get bred in the future?

[GaryBulguihb]

I understand the pups are being kept in the close circle, but how many of them might get bred in the future?

In addition to the reputation of this young man, this is my other big worry. I'm willing to be a dime to a doughnut that ONE of these pups will be bred. And I do not know if he has disclosed the fact to the other two people that the pups may not be bred as said. he may have told them. But he may have not. I don't know. Throw in the fact that the other possible sire was not an APBT (I think it was an AmBully), you have problems upon problems.

As far as DNA, last I looked it was $40 per dog, so it would be $120 per person ($40 sire, $40 dam, $40 pup). BUT ... once the sire & dam are on record it's only $40 per pup. So the sire owner could pay for his dog & pup ($80), the dam owner could pay for his dam & pup ($80) & the other person could pay for their pup ($40).

OR ... the dam owner could pay for the sire AND the dam & his pup (that would make it $120 for him & $40 for the other 2 people) since as the bitch's owner it is his responsibility to keep the female from other males. Sadly, he kept her out on a chain during her entire cycle which is how the neighbor's blue male jumped his fence & bred her.

Blessings ...

[Cuccuccaltefe]

I hope he gets a clear picture of what he might be up to in his head.

[outdog]

Wow, I have no advice. I definately agree he should be honest, work out the DNA costs with the other owners and maybe gain some common sense along the way and keep his bitch under constant supervision when she is in heat.

I hope he learns how very important reputation is among breeders and buyers and takes care to preserve his rep for the good of future pups he breeds. The better his rep the better homes his dogs will get!

[Kinds Of Pain Meds]

sent you a PM ABK!

[GaryBulguihb]

sent you a PM ABK!

Haven't gotten it yet ganja

[eduptultyt]

Plus, what about the people who buy dogs off these pups? How would you feel if you found out your pup wasn't bred as represented? I know I would not be happy.

Blessings ...

Growing up my family purchased what was supposed to be an AKC purebred poodle puppy and paid quite a bit of money for the dog. I think around $900 But he looked nothing like a purebred poodle. As he got older he Looked more like a Maltese Poodle mix. We eventually got back in touch with the breeder and asked what the deal was. She also bred Maltese. She said that she bred poodle to poodle. But maybe one of the male Maltese got to her female. She wouldn't refund us or anything she said if he wasn't good enough we could just rehome him and get a new dog. We weren't going to do that, but I know how it feels to think you are getting one dog and find out that is indeed not what you have. We loved him very much and he was a good dog, but its the principle of the matter. She pushed this pups awful hard to get them sold fast, I think she may have known the whole time.

I do hope the owner of the female will atleast be honest to potential buyers that this pups may not be what he thought

[WGfg4CCZ]

If they are a "close" circle, maybe the others would be willing to chip in to help pay for the DNA testing. I know if I had gotten one of those pups, I'd want to make sure I got what I wanted.

[GaryBulguihb]

SBT: That happened to my family once too. When I was in high school my parents FINALLY relented to my wishes to have a dog. We settled on the Chow breed & went to go look at a pup. The sire - a big black Chow - was there, but the dam wasn't. That should have tipped us off right then, but we didn't know any better. So we bought the pup.

He looked like a purebred Chow - a little fuzzy black furball with erect ears, a curled tail, straight hocks, black oral tissue, the whole nine. But as "Baire" got older & shed his puppy coat his fur went from fuzzy to slick. It was long like a Chow's but laid flat like a - I don't know - a not Chow. As he grew we came to the realization we had a mutt. We narrowed it down to either Chow x Lab or Chow x Shepherd.

Luckily for us however, we only paid $75 for him. I think if we paid $900 & the breeder told us to buzz off there would have been a beat down. But even though we just paid $75, the fact remains if you're paying for a certain product, you expect to get that product. We could have went & adopted a dog from the pound for $75 if I wanted a mutt.

CHJ: I feel the same way. I will pitch the idea of cost sharing to him. maybe he will take it.

Peace & happiness!

[ensuppono]

umm.. don't you just need the pup's DNA and the wanted sire's DNA? don't think you need the dam's... just sayin.

[WGfg4CCZ]

If they can't get the neighbor's dog's DNA, then they'd need the Sire and Dam. So, if a set showed up that were neither the Sire or Dams, then it must be the neighbor's dogs.

[eduptultyt]

Luckily for us however, we only paid $75 for him. I think if we paid $900 & the breeder told us to buzz off there would have been a beat down. But even though we just paid $75, the fact remains if you're paying for a certain product, you expect to get that product. We could have went & adopted a dog from the pound for $75 if I wanted a mutt.

I think that is why I are more prone to go the adoption route. We paid $90 to adopt Sasha and she has been the greatest dog ever.