[SaraKonradtt]

Ok, first my confession... I'm not a long time owner, or an expert on these bully type dogs. However I keep seeing the same conversations on this board over and over:

- my APBT is DA... whatever shall I do???

- "That's no APBT, its one of those damn AM BULLYS... you're not one of those damn punk kids are you???"

- Why are there so many stupid owners that can't handle this wonderfull breed as well as ME?

- Why isn't my "pit bull" a better guard dog??? I thought they were badass dogs???

----- etc etc etc

After reading a bit of this stuff, I can't help but ask:

Why choose this breed if you aren't seriously working your dogs? Any old bully-type shelter dog would suit most owners needs, so why the APBT? Better yet, why aren't breeders working to widen the divide between "game" APBT's and "pet bulls" of the AM Staff or Am Bully breeds.

If you're not hunting, pulling, or preserving/improving blood lines, what reason is there for having an APBT as opposed to a modern 'pet bull'?

[VEGLAS - SPB]

If you're not hunting, pulling, or preserving/improving blood lines, what reason is there for having an APBT as opposed to a modern 'pet bull'? And since any of the tame varieties will do these activities just as well, what use is there for the breed at all in that case?

Why are there so many stupid owners that can't handle this wonderfull breed as well as ME? Yes, I'm alright, its everyone else.

Its indicative of the failings in human nature I would have to conclude.

[astonmartinrx371]

Breeding for pets makes no sense as there will always be pet dogs even out of the highest quality litter of any breed.

[retyopj]

No one should be breeding strictly for pets of any breed. ALL dogs were bred to do a job and when breeders started pumping out pets, health and temperaments started going to crap. People intentionally breeding pet quality dogs are in it to line their pockets, not because they love their breed of choice and want to continue to improve it. Even labs and golden retrievers have gone from being amazing working and excellent family dogs to overweight, oversize, temperamental dogs who are growing increasingly more willing to bite, and it's because people started breeding them just to be pets.

[Feloascarlelt]

there are still people who feel that every dog should be bred at least once... dumb,i know.i think people get them as an ego trip and then realize that it is a lot more work than they had anticipated,so they come and ask questions that they should have known the answer to before they bought their dog,but at least they want to learn.others just ditch the dog as soon as the novelty wears off.

[chzvacmyye]

Pretty much every dog out there was originally bred for a purpose other than just being a pet, and today fulfill that purpose in many situations. By that standard, why have a Cairn Terrier unless you have a rat problem? Why have a greyhound unless you race it? Unless you hunt why have a beagle?

First of all, years of selective breeding have already made APBT extremely loyal and human friendly dogs. Why an APBT? Because we love them!! This is a forum...obviously there is going to be a whole collection of problems and complaints because we are looking for peoples advice. If we shared every great moment we had with our dogs then maybe the question would be "Why doesn't everyone have an APBT?"

Besides, as mentioned by Galadriel, breeding to improve a specific quality is never good for the breed. There's a reason why pure bred dogs have more health problems. Breeding more selectively increases these problems. And furthermore, if every breed is being bred specifically to be a pet, what is the difference going to be between the breeds after years and years? We love the traits that APBTs have, if you don't then don't get one, if you don't know what you're in for, don't get one, and if you can't handle it you shouldn't have one. The goal is not to make everyone want an APBT, it's just for APBT lovers to have them.

Finally, as sad as it may be, pit bulls are concentrated in bad areas. I know people love to be able to say that they got their dogs from some great breeder, but we should be concentrating on getting homes for the pit bulls that are already out there. 50% of the dogs put down in pounds are pit bulls and most of those are just because nobody wants to bring them home because they think that all pit bulls are evil dogs. Anyways, my point is, most pit bulls are bred in terrible areas where all that they care about is making their money - thats why they aren't working toward a "pet bull". In many cases, they're working toward the most bad ass fighting dog they can. Breeders don't need to be concentrating on breeding these dogs for any purpose at all. There are WAY too many of them looking for homes as it is. Our concern should be getting them out of the terrible situations that they're in. Not only is it sad but it is adding to these wonderful dogs' terrible reputation because the owners behind them are complete scum.

[gamecasta]

None of the issues you posted are "problems" with the breed, it's ignorance of people who didn't bother to research before they went out and bought a "pit". It doesn't matter what breed, there are always stupid people owning dogs. Kind of like people who get herding dogs and then complain it's nipping the kids or the cat, or who get guardian breeds and don't understand why it acts protective. If you can't be bothered to do some basic background research before you get an animal then you probably should have gotten a stuffed one IMO.

[Tusethede]

No reason to breed for a Pet Bull. BYBers turn them out by the many, so, there are plenty of Pet Bull quality dogs in the shelters/rescues.

[Ornamiviant]

Breeding for pets makes no sense as there will always be pet dogs even out of the highest quality litter of any breed.

Yup, hit the nail on the head.

I've never had a dog that wasn't bred to work and I kind of doubt I ever will... Yeah my current dog is a mutt, but she's got hella more herding drive than my parents pretty by AKC standards purebred BC.

Furthermore... I've seen much more well taken care of bulldogs at the fricken trailer park that borders one of the greenbelt paths we walk on than those that reside in surburbia. There was a gorgeous black male APBT on a chain set-up there that was in tip top shape and just made me salivate every time we walked by. Don't judge people just because they are poor.

[IRYzouNv]

Pretty much every dog out there was originally bred for a purpose other than just being a pet, and today fulfill that purpose in many situations. By that standard, why have a Cairn Terrier unless you have a rat problem? Why have a greyhound unless you race it? Unless you hunt why have a beagle?

First of all, years of selective breeding have already made APBT extremely loyal and human friendly dogs. Why an APBT? Because we love them!! This is a forum...obviously there is going to be a whole collection of problems and complaints because we are looking for peoples advice. If we shared every great moment we had with our dogs then maybe the question would be "Why doesn't everyone have an APBT?"

Besides, as mentioned by Galadriel, breeding to improve a specific quality is never good for the breed. There's a reason why pure bred dogs have more health problems. Breeding more selectively increases these problems. And furthermore, if every breed is being bred specifically to be a pet, what is the difference going to be between the breeds after years and years? We love the traits that APBTs have, if you don't then don't get one, if you don't know what you're in for, don't get one, and if you can't handle it you shouldn't have one. The goal is not to make everyone want an APBT, it's just for APBT lovers to have them.

Finally, as sad as it may be, pit bulls are concentrated in bad areas. I know people love to be able to say that they got their dogs from some great breeder, but we should be concentrating on getting homes for the pit bulls that are already out there. 50% of the dogs put down in pounds are pit bulls and most of those are just because nobody wants to bring them home because they think that all pit bulls are evil dogs. Anyways, my point is, most pit bulls are bred in terrible areas where all that they care about is making their money - thats why they aren't working toward a "pet bull". In many cases, they're working toward the most bad ass fighting dog they can. Breeders don't need to be concentrating on breeding these dogs for any purpose at all. There are WAY too many of them looking for homes as it is. Our concern should be getting them out of the terrible situations that they're in. Not only is it sad but it is adding to these wonderful dogs' terrible reputation because the owners behind them are complete scum.

I agree totally. I don't work my Rambo but does that mean i shouldn't own him. I don't believe so.

[gambleingsites]

I must admit than when I read the title of this thread, i thought I was opening up a joke thread.....
There is absolutely no need to breed for pets... period...
enjoy your pet quality dog, i do enjoy mine...but do not breed them...
those who are breeding for the improvement of the breed, those who breed for champions, will have many who do not make the mark and those will become the pets we need.. there are just TOO many dogs out there as it is...
we do not need to change the breed, we do not need to water them down.. we need to see fewer of these animals produced....

[GinaIsWild]

pets are a byproduct of any litter of working/performance dogs... they happen even when breeding top quality performance dogs, there's going to be pups who just don't quite make the grade. there's the pets.
imo, there ARE a lot of morons who are expecting their dogs to do something other than what they were developed for. and they're barking up the wrong tree, and will never be happy.

[ChicasCams]

people already breed "pet bulls" they call them Am Bullies and Am Staffs

[SaraKonradtt]

No reason to breed for a Pet Bull. BYBers turn them out by the many, so, there are plenty of Pet Bull quality dogs in the shelters/rescues.

This goes to the heart of the question.

The 'burb' I live in is not afluent by any means, and in the poorer neighborhoods 'pits' are by far the dog of choice, and most are these BYB's 'pet bulls'... that seems to be what the market demands. I just can't understand why folks who want an off-leash dog park pup have gravitated toward 'pits'... especialy those who seek out a pure APBT.

Maybe it's my bias, or common sense, but why have a dog in the city that has such a high prey drive, and the potential to be a huge liability if it ever takes off down the road? If Gracie was a super-driven dog rather than the mellow 'pet bull' she is, there is no way I would have taken her on.

Perhaps more disturbing to me is that I'm seeing more Bandogg types coming from the BYB's... the more I read up the madder this makes me... these guys are combining prey drive, DA, and HA/guarding breeds, in a stacked up 100lb package for city folks??? That's just assinine. But sadly, they call them all 'pits' and these lines mix through the community with all the other backyard APBT's.

I just don't see the reason for APBT's popularity when the more temperment focused breeding of Am Staffs or good Bullys would suit 90 percent of owners needs better. Why have an APBT if gameness isn't your need?

[VEGLAS - SPB]

The 'burb' I live in is not afluent by any means, and in the poorer neighborhoods 'pits' are by far the dog of choice why have a dog in the city that has such a high prey drive, and the potential to be a huge liability combining prey drive, DA, and HA/guarding breeds, in a stacked up 100lb package Why have an APBT if gameness isn't your need These phrases tell the bulk of the story. Its about ego and raising ones self esteem. What most seem to overlook and it is probably at the heart of the whole breed problem, is there are inherent problems with the whole capitalist society in which we live. Those who get left behind in the whole race for wealth become disenfranchised and need some form of outlet to improve their self worth.

In poorer areas things tend to be rougher and having a bigger badder dog to do your bidding is worth a lot. Liability is not something many people in these situations really worry about. Often they have a reduced level of responsibility, possibily from a lack of connection to their community, I don't know, and if they have nothing to begin with, they have nothing to lose. Why worry then about any sort of liability they may have?

I have always had concerns about crossing guarding breeds with very determined breeds but again, for street cred it is like gold. Also, some poorer areas can be dangerous and some may feel the need to have a large powerful dog as a protector. Most breeds which would have traditionally fitted the bill have lost their working roles and become more mellow to fit into a changing world so for someone who really wants a nasty dog, sometimes the only option is to create one.

Ironically, many poor urban dwellers may have more use for gameness than any other owner. Due to their disconnection with society, they seem more inclined to flout the laws and engage in illegal activities so they are likely to be the very people who would make the most of any gameness their dogs would have.

[retyopj]

Pretty much every dog out there was originally bred for a purpose other than just being a pet, and today fulfill that purpose in many situations. By that standard, why have a Cairn Terrier unless you have a rat problem? Why have a greyhound unless you race it? Unless you hunt why have a beagle?

First of all, years of selective breeding have already made APBT extremely loyal and human friendly dogs. Why an APBT? Because we love them!! This is a forum...obviously there is going to be a whole collection of problems and complaints because we are looking for peoples advice. If we shared every great moment we had with our dogs then maybe the question would be "Why doesn't everyone have an APBT?"

Besides, as mentioned by Galadriel, breeding to improve a specific quality is never good for the breed. There's a reason why pure bred dogs have more health problems. Breeding more selectively increases these problems. And furthermore, if every breed is being bred specifically to be a pet, what is the difference going to be between the breeds after years and years? We love the traits that APBTs have, if you don't then don't get one, if you don't know what you're in for, don't get one, and if you can't handle it you shouldn't have one. The goal is not to make everyone want an APBT, it's just for APBT lovers to have them.

Finally, as sad as it may be, pit bulls are concentrated in bad areas. I know people love to be able to say that they got their dogs from some great breeder, but we should be concentrating on getting homes for the pit bulls that are already out there. 50% of the dogs put down in pounds are pit bulls and most of those are just because nobody wants to bring them home because they think that all pit bulls are evil dogs. Anyways, my point is, most pit bulls are bred in terrible areas where all that they care about is making their money - thats why they aren't working toward a "pet bull". In many cases, they're working toward the most bad ass fighting dog they can. Breeders don't need to be concentrating on breeding these dogs for any purpose at all. There are WAY too many of them looking for homes as it is. Our concern should be getting them out of the terrible situations that they're in. Not only is it sad but it is adding to these wonderful dogs' terrible reputation because the owners behind them are complete scum.

Actually, that's not what I said AT ALL. Breeders SHOULD be breeding to improve qualities that make breeds what they are, and not breeding for strictly pets. Breeders that are in it for looks are pumping out dogs with genetic problems and malformations, but working breeders are a whole different ball game. They're improving the abilities that the dogs were intended for in the first place, and I have no problem with that. When dogs are being bred to be only family pets, those people aren't trying to improve anything but their financial situation and egos. Breeding more selectively for health and temperament is EXACTLY what more people should be doing.

[VEGLAS - SPB]

working breeders are a whole different ball game. They're improving the abilities that the dogs were intended for in the first place Though there are a raft of breeds who no-longer have a legitimate purpose and thus must be bred for some other purpose which may or may not be a close approximation of their original purpose and call for a similar makeup of dog. Hence this...

Breeding more selectively for health and temperament This is what most who are deemed "good" breeders will claim to do, whether breeding for show or agility or tracking or whatever.

[chzvacmyye]

Breeders SHOULD be breeding to improve qualities that make breeds what they are, and not breeding for strictly pets. Breeders that are in it for looks are pumping out dogs with genetic problems and malformations, but working breeders are a whole different ball game. They're improving the abilities that the dogs were intended for in the first place, and I have no problem with that. When dogs are being bred to be only family pets, those people aren't trying to improve anything but their financial situation and egos. Breeding more selectively for health and temperament is EXACTLY what more people should be doing. You're right, poor word choice on my part. I should have distinguished between different types of breeders. I understand that if selective breeding is done correctly it can be helpful and that is what breeders should be doing. Selective breeding for looks as a means of making money is a completely different story, I agree. Unfortunately, I have lost a lot of faith in breeders as I watch the decline in the health and temperament of most of the popular breeds out there.

[U2DnBGFE]

Breeding for pets makes no sense as there will always be pet dogs even out of the highest quality litter of any breed.

Exactly. One short sentence sums it all up.

The reason why we are overrun with dogs with physical issues and temperament issues is because people are breeding pets strictly for more pets.

And, if people do not like what they see in the working APBT, then do not get an APBT. Owning a dog is about loving and admiring them for what they are, not what someone wants to change them to be. One needs to take a step back and think more of the breed/dogs than themselves thus meaning not to bring one into one's home if one's home is not suitable for that breed of dog.

[SaraKonradtt]

Exactly. One short sentence sums it all up.

The reason why we are overrun with dogs with physical issues and temperament issues is because people are breeding pets strictly for more pets.

And, if people do not like what they see in the working APBT, then do not get an APBT. Owning a dog is about loving and admiring them for what they are, not what someone wants to change them to be. One needs to take a step back and think more of the breed/dogs than themselves thus meaning not to bring one into one's home if one's home is not suitable for that breed of dog.

OK... I see the point all of the breed preservationists are making, and don't nescisarily disagree. I suppose my p.o.v. is skewed a bit by the prevelence of BYB's.

That said, I still just don't 'get it'... if one isn't hunting hogs, pulling weight, doing police work, or breeding to keeping 'game dog' lines 'game', what is the use in breeding or owning APBT's as opposed to Staffy's or Bullys? And why are breeders even selling them to people who don't need one? I don't think anybody has answered that one yet. Defering to personal choice isn't a good enough answer in my book. Just because I could fill my front yard with 5 dobermans and a couple mastifs, it doesn't make it a good idea in the suburbs, as ocasionaly s#!t happens. The same is true IMO of an APBT thats not working. Just read the stories on this board.

Some have made the argument that few dogs of any breed actualy do the work they were bred for. While this is true, there's a big difference between a retriever that doesn't retrieve birds, and an APBT that doesn't fight or hunt. One genetic pre-disposition is suitable for being around people and other animals, and one isn't well suited at all.

Example: I've noticed quite a few members here are 'working' their APBT's as therapy dogs. I for one can't think of anything that makes an APBT superior to a cow dog, bird dog, Staffy or Bully "pet bull" for this task, or the multitude of other jobs they do that don't require 'gameness'.

Maybe I'm dense in the head but I don't see why the love-fest for game dogs over 'pet bulls' if there is no 'game' purpose for the dogs. I can apreciate them, but see no reason for most people to have them or breed them instead of 'pet bulls'.