[Ifroham4]

A super trawler coming to a port near you, maybe. Now a centralised and vertically integrated platform like this is going to have an effect on price, you are replacing multiple ships plus a factory so seafood from this trawler will be cheaper.

But how bad are these? Looks spooky to me, but is one trawler doing the job of 10 better or worse for the environment, I would think better (if catches are the same) But another aspect, I would answer yes, when it got rid of quaint fishing villages whose product supported entire communities, but then again it makes seafood more affordable.

I think in the greater good calculus it might be too far in the efficiency spectrum in the same way that tiny fishing villages with multiple family owned boats might be inefficient.

[doctorzlo]

The quaint little fishing villages have all re-invented themselves as tourist destinations.

I don't know about the enviromonetal effects - if there's too many trawlers they might be too effective at catching - but even older methods could wipe species out pretty effectively.

There's probably similar issues with land farming - are the more efficient farming methods more or less environmentally friendly?

[MannoFr]

There's probably similar issues with land farming - are the more efficient farming methods more or less environmentally friendly?

I know where you are going and it makes me think as well, but we can manage land farming, and yes make it intensive to such a degree that only one species survives, but that can be done with little environmental flow on and we sort of know what we are doing. Not convinced we know what we are doing when it comes to these mega trawlers.

[HedgeYourBets]

I know where you are going and it makes me think as well, but we can manage land farming, and yes make it intensive to such a degree that only one species survives, but that can be done with little environmental flow on and we sort of know what we are doing. Not convinced we know what we are doing when it comes to these mega trawlers.

and you don't compare these mega trawlers with the mega broadacre ploughs?

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

and you don't compare these mega trawlers with the mega broadacre ploughs?

I am trying to and get to a cost benefit figure but also understanding that the fruits of the ocean are much less known and with less management experience that we have with land farming and use of animals and crops Which is what I thought I communicated.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

I am trying to and get to a cost benefit figure but also understanding that the fruits of the ocean are much less known and with less management experience that we have with land farming and use of animals and crops Which is what I thought I communicated.

Fair enough.

[Ifroham4]

The other thing is the size of the catch. There might not be enough of a certain species to maintain a viable breeding population, which arises from hitting a particular size as a member of a species.

Also the waste would be a worry - dead sea life of a certain size are thrown away at the Wollongong Harbour - the size of that waste could grow "bigger."

[MannoFr]

Also the waste would be a worry - dead sea life of a certain size are thrown away at the Wollongong Harbour - the size of that waste could grow "bigger."

But would it if it was replacing 10 other ships? It can only be in one place at a time. Thats what I am getting at, its not a good look, but if it is replacing a fleet is it better or worse. Probably worse for a fishing community with several family boats, but how is it environmentally? Then again, destroying a community by driving its boats out of business would have a society cost as well.

[Lt_Apple]

You've separated the two "costs"nicely TUG.


The first, of the direct costs to the environment (apart from construction / running etc) will depend on the specifications for operation and will not necessarily be more or less healthy than the old ad hoc systems.

In fact it might be easier to "control" just one huge corporation / operation in the long run, compared with the existing "given" of all the competing interests that have so much angsting about (say) marine parks today.

The second will depend largely on how communities (through government) regulate these things.

It cannot be any worse than what the mining industry's FI/FO is doing to the local mining communities o(r those from which they are drawing their labour).

Similar issues arose as a consequence of the broadacre planting of blue gums ... no-one making profits from those had any intention of paying the real costs to communities which were wiped out in many cases.

As always, the devil is in the detail.

We don't seem capable of sorting the private / public business of fair allocation of costs of natural resources which are being "used" by some for person kinds of profit-making.
(No, I don't see the "trickle down effect"as being anything like what its supporters claim).

[Lt_Apple]

In terms of standard of living you are much better off with efficient farms and fisheries, than with quaint small holdings and fishing villages. The fishing village may be quaint, but if the prawns cost $50 a kilo less get bought and everyone suffers.

It's the old -- dragline replaces 20 large bulldozers which replaces 200 men with shovels which replaces 1000 men with teaspoons. The efficient practices make everyone's standard of living higher in the long run.

In terms of the environment, well sustainable farming costs money. You are more likely to be able to afford sustainable farming if you do it efficiently in the first place. Poor countries do not farm sustainably on purpose (sometimes they do it by accident). It costs money to protect the environment.

The problem is regulation. It is easier to police a wheat farm west of sydney than a trawler in international waters.

[PhillipHer]

In terms of standard of living you are much better off with efficient farms and fisheries, than with quaint small holdings and fishing villages. The fishing village may be quaint, but if the prawns cost $50 a kilo less get bought and everyone suffers.

Does culture or its loss have a price? I rather like the idea of sustainable fishing communities especially if traditionally based.

[tgs]

But would it if it was replacing 10 other ships? It can only be in one place at a time. Thats what I am getting at, its not a good look, but if it is replacing a fleet is it better or worse. Probably worse for a fishing community with several family boats, but how is it environmentally? Then again, destroying a community by driving its boats out of business would have a society cost as well.

The trawler in the example is huge. It is much bigger than anything that would fit in to Wollongong Harbour. So yes the size of the sea creatures that they could take in would be much bigger and therefore the loss of the 'waste' could be bigger in the individual size of oceanic lifeforms captured.

If the trawler, shown in the picture, can take ten times more than the local fishing businesses can take then it probably won't be sustainable.

The size of individual sea creatures is important as it relates to breeding capacity in some species.

For the Albatross, if there are no drag line hooks, that could be a good thing indeed. As current fishing practices with the long lines and hooks will see the extinction of a variety of species of Albatrosses in the next 15 years.

[Slonopotam845]

This is the (current) extreme edge of the capitalistic mode of economic evolution. I wonder where it will end. Everything consolidated, to take advantage of the economies of scale, so that the only profitable way to enter a market, is via the corporate path.

Only investors and employees left, in the endgame?

[NeroASERCH]

A Big trawler moving into a new area is not going to displace 10 smaller ones, it is simply going to catch more of their fish, which may currently be fished sustainably ie catching no more than reproduction can replace. However, once the fish catch is reduced the large trawler moves somewhere else leaving the small local trawlers to catch what is left, which will make it more difficult for them to catch sufficient to maintain their gear and to make a living. This, at least initially, may well mean them fishing longer, or in places they normally would not, thereby reducing fish numbers even further, with the possibility of even destroying the local fishery.

These large trawlers will be equipped with the latest technology and so they will be better able not only to locate the fish, but also to catch them. This scenario is typical of the fishing industry where fewer boats can catch more than ever before and due to this, fish numbers in most fisheries are already in serious decline without adding these highly efficient trawlers to further plunder a limited resource.

As for the ecological aspect, a major decline of fish numbers will stimulate environmental change and usually for the worse, as organisms normally kept under control by the fish will increase in number and may even threaten the entire habitat.

[radikal]

A Big trawler moving into a new area is not going to displace 10 smaller ones, it is simply going to catch more of their fish, which may currently be fished sustainably ie catching no more than reproduction can replace.

The fishermen hate trawlers because they pick up everything, kill it and only keep some of it. This is unsustainable in any terms.

[Lt_Apple]

and you don't compare these mega trawlers with the mega broadacre ploughs?

Something that should be pointed out that the vessel in question (the Margiris) is a mid-water trawler, so has no impact on the physical marine environment (as opposed to a board-trawler which tows a net along the bottom). That said, the power and size of these type of boats is pretty scary and they can take a hell of a lot of fish.

I haven't followed this story in detail, but my understanding is the proposal the owners want to put forward is they be allowed to target bait species such as Cowanyoung or Jack Mackeral - Trachurus symmetricus and Yakkas, or Yellowtail Scad -Trachurus novaezelandiae. These fish are the food source for a lot of larger pelagics such as Southern Bluefin and other tuna species.

A vessel that size would cost thousands per day to operate, so unless they were allowed to take a sizeable amount of fish, the exercise would be uneconomic to the vessel's owners. It is this point that has a lot of Australian fishers very worried. Southern Bluefin stocks were decimated through over-fishing until bans were put in place and in recent years stocks have recovered somewhat. Not much point creating these new off-shore marine parks and banning fishing in them in order to protect tuna stocks if the bloody fish will starve to death anyway.

Trouble is that the general public don't really understand fish as their habitat isn't something we can easily visit. A cow is a cow, be it Hereford or Jersey. A sheep is a sheep, be it Merino or Suffolk. A chook is a chook...(you get the point). The term fish can't be used in the same generic fashion, all different, and all have different habits and needs.

[Ifroham4]

Does culture or its loss have a price? I rather like the idea of sustainable fishing communities especially if traditionally based.

It does have a price, about $50 kilo as opposed to $20 a kilo. It is a free market and you can buy from the quaint village if you prefer.

I think fishing culture might be a bit overrated. I worked on a prawn trawler in uni holidays over 20 years ago. The reality does not live up to your stereotype.

[softy54534]

The fishermen hate trawlers because they pick up everything, kill it and only keep some of it. This is unsustainable in any terms.

What do you mean.

Trawlers are operated by fishermen

[tgs]

Hot off the press

Dutch arrest four over Aust-bound trawler

• From: AAP
• July 03, 2012 10:43PM

Four Greenpeace activists who have been preventing an Australian-bound super-trawler from leaving a port in the Netherlands were arrested on Tuesday.

"THIS morning we arrested four people: two men and two women who were preventing the ship's departure," Evy Elschot told AFP from Ijmuiden, 30km northeast of Amsterdam.

The Lithuanian-flagged FV Margiris, which is to be re-flagged as Australian and deployed to catch baitfish off Tasmania, was stopped by the Greenpeace team on June 27 as it tried to leave the Dutch port.

The 143-metre, 9,500-tonne Margiris is one of the world's largest fishing trawlers, and has been accused by Greenpeace in the past of over-fishing off West Africa.

Activists hung on cables between the quay and the ship and put a chain around the trawler's propeller.

"We first asked the activists to leave the boat, which did not happen," said Elschot, adding the activists were then arrested "but remained calm."

She added the ship was now to leave Ijmuiden on Tuesday afternoon.

Pavel Klinckhamers, who heads Greenpeace's ocean-related campaigns told AFP he "regretted the arrests."
"We'll see what we can do for our fellow Australians," Klinckhamers added.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/bre...-1226416185033


A couple of other links.

http://pna.atuna.com/ViewArticle.asp?ID=11344

http://www.naroomanewsonline.com.au/...s/2590805.aspx

[HedgeYourBets]

What do you mean.

Trawlers are operated by fishermen

Trawler operators are trawler operators.. it can hardly be called fishing.