[Baromaro]

ahoy me friends, hail to ye all!

a few years ago...actually, more like a decade ago (its kinda strange sayin' that, hath it been that long?), i was a fervent supporter 'o our military action in Afghanistan.

i believed our cause was righteous no matter who the skipper was on our bridge, be it President Bush, or the our current captain, President Obama.

recently though, i've lost me faith, and am unclear what we're doin' thar and why we're stayin'. i know thar hath been a yearnin' amongst many here on USPO that our country just lay down a rain 'o fire and stop pussyfootin' around thar, and Mr. Obama hath certainly been more forceful (i was goin' to say "ruthless", but thats kinda a pejorative term, aye?) in pursuein' our national intrests, fer sure.

but when i reads news like this, it just seems like madness be takin' place in that faraway land;
Nine boys collecting firewood to heat their homes in the eastern Afghanistan mountains were killed by NATO helicopter gunners who mistook them for insurgents, according to a statement on Wednesday by NATO, which apologized for the mistake.

The boys, who were 9 to 15 years old, were attacked on Tuesday in what amounted to one of the war’s worst cases of mistaken killings by foreign-led forces. The victims included two sets of brothers. A 10th boy survived.

News of the attack enraged Afghans and led to an anti-American demonstration on Wednesday in the village of Nanglam, where the boys were from. The only survivor, Hemad, 11, said his mother had told him to go out with other boys to collect firewood because “the weather is very cold now.”

“As soon as we heard about the attack on the village’s children, all the village men rushed to the mountains to find out what really happened,” said Ashabuddin, a shopkeeper from Manogai, a nearby village, whose nephew Khalid was among those killed.

“Finally we found the dead bodies. Some of the dead bodies were really badly chopped up by the rockets,” he said. “The head of a child was missing. Others were missing limbs.” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/wo...R_AP_LO_MST_FB

whilst some 'o our more hardened swabby's who sail with us here on USPO might shrug and say, "what do you expect? war is hell!", i hafta wonder how many terrorists our mighty NATO forces created the moment we blew them nine children into piles 'o meat, bone and viscera.

aye...

- MeadHallPirate

[GreefeWrereon]

Sadly, even if those boys were shot while placing mines, shooting Americans, and raping nuns the propaganda outcome would be the same. There is no way we can win. None. We are not wanted there, we are doing no good there, and we have no future there.

I am a Democrat, but Obama has really screwed the pooch on this one.

[Gremlinn]

I say, pull out of Afganistan, STAT and totally, and use some of those troops to beef up the southern border of USA.

[ethigSmimbine]

ahoy me friends, hail to ye all!

a few years ago...actually, more like a decade ago (its kinda strange sayin' that, hath it been that long?), i was a fervent supporter 'o our military action in Afghanistan.

i believed our cause was righteous no matter who the skipper was on our bridge, be it President Bush, or the our current captain, President Obama.

recently though, i've lost me faith, and am unclear what we're doin' thar and why we're stayin'. i know thar hath been a yearnin' amongst many here on USPO that our country just lay down a rain 'o fire and stop pussyfootin' around thar, and Mr. Obama hath certainly been more forceful (i was goin' to say "ruthless", but thats kinda a pejorative term, aye?) in pursuein' our national intrests, fer sure.

but when i reads news like this, it just seems like madness be takin' place in that faraway land;
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/wo...R_AP_LO_MST_FB

whilst some 'o our more hardened swabby's who sail with us here on USPO might shrug and say, "what do you expect? war is hell!", i hafta wonder how many terrorists our mighty NATO forces created the moment we blew them nine children into piles 'o meat, bone and viscera.

aye...

- MeadHallPirate

This is part of the sad, dirty face of war, my friend. Mistakes happen and there are consequences. That said, we shouldn't let mistakes or the threat of them weaken our resolve or keep us from doing what must be done.

[babopeddy]

This is part of the sad, dirty face of war, my friend. Mistakes happen and there are consequences. That said, we shouldn't let mistakes or the threat of them weaken our resolve or keep us from doing what must be done.

It is entirely unclear to most people how these helicopter pilots were doing what must be done.

What is the strategy here? Shoot anything that might be suspicious in the dark without any confirmation of wrong doing?

This sounds like precisely what must not be done....

The slaughter of these 9 children comes right after 73 civilians (more than 30 children) were slaughtered over the past week.

NATO apologizes for Afghan civilian deaths - Arab News

The entire operation is ridiculously stupid and cruel and produces no significant long lasting meaningful results.

Andrew

[Lauramalina]

Good Lord.

[Triiooman]

It is entirely unclear to most people how these helicopter pilots were doing what must be done.

What is the strategy here? Shoot anything that might be suspicious in the dark without any confirmation of wrong doing?

This sounds like precisely what must not be done....

The slaughter of these 9 children comes right after 73 civilians (more than 30 children) were slaughtered over the past week.

NATO apologizes for Afghan civilian deaths - Arab News

The entire operation is ridiculously stupid and cruel and produces no significant long lasting meaningful results.

Andrew

Andrew,

This sucks and I wish we were out of Afghanistan but we aren't out of Afghanistan so the soldiers, marines, airman, and swabbies have to do their job. These accidents are tragic and we wish they wouldn't happen. The problem is that those we are forced to fight (by the command of our elected civilian officials, yes, that includes Obama and his surge) don't wear uniforms or stay on military bases. They hide amoungst civilians, dressed as civilians, and act like civilians. When the target isn't clear these kinds of mistakes are inevitable. Those who are truly at fault are the native Afghani insurgents.

[poRmawayncmop]

ahoy me friends, hail to ye all!

a few years ago...actually, more like a decade ago (its kinda strange sayin' that, hath it been that long?), i was a fervent supporter 'o our military action in Afghanistan.

i believed our cause was righteous no matter who the skipper was on our bridge, be it President Bush, or the our current captain, President Obama.

recently though, i've lost me faith, and am unclear what we're doin' thar and why we're stayin'. i know thar hath been a yearnin' amongst many here on USPO that our country just lay down a rain 'o fire and stop pussyfootin' around thar, and Mr. Obama hath certainly been more forceful (i was goin' to say "ruthless", but thats kinda a pejorative term, aye?) in pursuein' our national intrests, fer sure.

but when i reads news like this, it just seems like madness be takin' place in that faraway land;
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/wo...R_AP_LO_MST_FB

whilst some 'o our more hardened swabby's who sail with us here on USPO might shrug and say, "what do you expect? war is hell!", i hafta wonder how many terrorists our mighty NATO forces created the moment we blew them nine children into piles 'o meat, bone and viscera.

aye...

- MeadHallPirate

Yes, we may very well be creating more terroists than we actually kill in this war. Dimenishing returns and all that jazz. That may be the actual reality here.

[ricochettty]

Andrew,

This sucks and I wish we were out of Afghanistan but we aren't out of Afghanistan so the soldiers, marines, airman, and swabbies have to do their job. These accidents are tragic and we wish they wouldn't happen. The problem is that those we are forced to fight (by the command of our elected civilian officials, yes, that includes Obama and his surge) don't wear uniforms or stay on military bases. They hide amoungst civilians, dressed as civilians, and act like civilians. When the target isn't clear these kinds of mistakes are inevitable. Those who are truly at fault are the native Afghani insurgents.

As far as im concerned this is not about the soldiers at all - it is about strategy. The strategy is stupid.

Andrew

[CevepBiageCefm]

So what is it that "must be done" or is our "job" over there? Seriously, I haven't heard the president articulate what our ongoing mission over there is. What are the parents of our troops being told their kids are dying for? The complacency of this nation about troops dying overseas is terrible. We need to get the fuck out.

[Overlord]

So what is it that "must be done" or is our "job" over there? Seriously, I haven't heard the president articulate what our ongoing mission over there is. What are the parents of our troops being told their kids are dying for? The complacency of this nation about troops dying overseas is terrible. We need to get the fuck out.

Exactly. All i hear from elected officials, military commanders, and others who support this war is empty sloganeering. I.e., "what must be done!". What the fuck does that mean? I don't see results, i just see senseless death and destruction.

[reachmanxx]

Sadly, even if those boys were shot while placing mines, shooting Americans, and raping nuns the propaganda outcome would be the same. There is no way we can win. None. We are not wanted there, we are doing no good there, and we have no future there.

While the propaganda point you make is true, we could in fact win in Afghanistan... but we won't ever do what it would take. Then again, we barely got it done in Iraq and likely wouldn't do it anywhere else.

I am a Democrat, but Obama has really screwed the pooch on this one.

Thanks for coming out of the closet... I for one appreciate it.

[ignonsoli]

As far as im concerned this is not about the soldiers at all - it is about strategy. The strategy is stupid.

Andrew

If by strategy you mean leaving immediately then, yes, I agree. If you're talking about strategy in continued operations, I'm sorry, but you don't know enough on the topic to voice an opinion if you think we can keep this from happening. Like I said, you can't keep from these kinds of things happening when the enemy intentionally uses civilians as a shield.

[luffyplayaz]

While the propaganda point you make is true, we could in fact win in Afghanistan... but we won't ever do what it would take.

More meaningless slogans....

Then again, we barely got it done in Iraq and likely wouldn't do it anywhere else. Nothing "got done" in iraq. It remains one of the most violent dysfunctional countries in the world and there is no sign of that changing.


Andrew

[GroosteFoessy]

If by strategy you mean leaving immediately then, yes, I agree. If you're talking about strategy in continued operations, I'm sorry, but you don't know enough on the topic to voice an opinion if you think we can keep this from happening. Like I said, you can't keep from these kinds of things happening when the enemy intentionally uses civilians as a shield.

I disagree. NATO itself has called it a "terrible mistake" - not the unfortunate result of civilians being used as shields. It was simply an outright failure. In fact, if Petraeus is to be believed, this was a violation of his rules of engagement.

By strategy i mean it is stupid to think you can solve the problem of islamic terrorism by shooting blindly in the dark. What NATO is doing is clearly the acts of a coalition that is confused - so they are doing the only thing they know how to do - kill.

It was time to leave years ago.

Andrew

[Vzkdgdqx]

I disagree. NATO itself has called it a "terrible mistake" - not the unfortunate result of civilians being used as shields. It was simply an outright failure. In fact, if Petraeus is to be believed, this was a violation of his rules of engagement.

By strategy i mean it is stupid to think you can solve the problem of islamic terrorism by shooting blindly in the dark. What NATO is doing is clearly the acts of a coalition that is confused - so they are doing the only thing they know how to do - kill.

I can see how someone who has never been would think that. You are looking at something you don't understand from afar and trying to make sense out of it.

This is war, Andrew. Mistakes, terrible mistakes, happen. As I have said before, this is the ugly side of war. If you don't like the look of it, then don't look. In the end the fact remains that are there and, as long as we are there, the war needs to be fought. Even if it upsets the sensibilities of the ignorant.

It was time to leave years ago.

Agreed. I don't think the Afghanis are worth the blood that is being spilled for them.

[TXmjLW9b]

I can see how someone who has never been would think that. You are looking at something you don't understand from afar and trying to make sense out of it.

That is becoming a tired refrain Thor. The fact remains that a decade on islamic terrorism has spread and not diminished, Afghanistan is still a shit hole, and there is no meaningful or lasting results anybody can point to - having been there or not. Like it or not Thor, we live in a democracy and the citizens of that democracy have to be pleased with the effort and we can choose to replace those politicians who are not delivering results.

Besides, you always make it sound like there is some deep mystery to understand in war - there is not. Its just people killing people. Its simple and it is easy to make sens out of it.

This is war, Andrew. Mistakes, terrible mistakes, happen. As I have said before, this is the ugly side of war. If you don't like the look of it, then don't look. In the end the fact remains that are there and, as long as we are there, the war needs to be fought. Even if it upsets the sensibilities of the ignorant. Just because war is ugly and mistakes happen does not mean it cannot be harshly criticized for lack of results or for its idiotic cruelty. As a citizen of a country that uses my money to pay for this ongoing tragedy it is my duty to criticize it and to never let up criticizing it until either they leave or results or achieved.

Sorry Thor, but it sounds like you are copying and pasting your comments from a book of military slogans. Just more meaningless words that do not change the reality of the situation.


Agreed. I don't think the Afghanis are worth the blood that is being spilled for them. On the contrary, the blood of these children is worth more than the blood of those who foolishly die and kill for empire/corporations ever will be.

Andrew

[Gvadelunar]

Agreed. I don't think the Afghanis are worth the blood that is being spilled for them.

hail ThorHammer,

*drops his anchor and orders his sails lowered*

*checks his hearin' and grinds his knuckles into his eyeballs*

hold on, me friend...could ye repeat that? i can't quite believe what ye just said...

are ye sayin' that we're spillin' blood and spendin' trillions fer the well bein' 'o the citizens 'o Afghanistan? this be the mission???

- MeadHallPirate

[WepKeyday]

I have a tough tiime getting bent about the inadvertant killing of a handful of Afghan kids.

It wasn't intentional and those boys were only going to get raped by village elders for the next couple years of their life anyway - before they settled down to become Afghanistan's next generation of child molestors, wife beaters, and heroine manufacturers.

At least one or two of them probably would have made an effort over the next couple years to wound or kill Americans or to serve those who would, if they hadn't already been involved in some degree of insurgency.

That said, I agree that it's stupid thhat we have any troops there at all - strafing kids or otherwise.

Everything that needed doing in Afghanistan was done by about the middle of January, 2002.

Having kept troops there one minute longer was retarded.

Both Bush, and now Obama, are retarded CinCs.

[EscaCsamas]

Besides, you always make it sound like there is some deep mystery to understand in war - there is not. Its just people killing people. Its simple and it is easy to make sens out of it.

And I can see how easy it is for someone who has never been to war to think like that.

Just because war is ugly and mistakes happen does not mean it cannot be harshly criticized for lack of results or for its idiotic cruelty. As a citizen of a country that uses my money to pay for this ongoing tragedy it is my duty to criticize it and to never let up criticizing it until either they leave or results or achieved.

Go a head and criticise, I have no problem with that at all. Just don't get all pissy when those of use who have been at the sharp end of the spear laugh you off.

Sorry Thor, but it sounds like you are copying and pasting your comments from a book of military slogans. Just more meaningless words that do not change the reality of the situation.

You want to lecture me, someone who has been in that reality, as to what is really going down and what it is like?