[Iphone]

Despite what some conservatives here seem to think, muslim nations CAN and DO support free regimes. Turkey immediately comes to mind. They have their problems, yes, so does the USA

I finally found Ataturk's great quote on religion:

I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men Three Cheers for THAT, we could use some of that thinking over here.

[priceyicey]

Despite what some conservatives here seem to think, muslim nations CAN and DO support free regimes. Turkey immediately comes to mind. They have their problems, yes, so does the USA

I finally found Ataturk's great quote on religion:



Three Cheers for THAT, we could use some of that thinking over here.

Absolutely perfect and timely quote! Thank you for bringing it to us!

[provigil]

Despite what some conservatives here seem to think, muslim nations CAN and DO support free regimes. Turkey immediately comes to mind. They have their problems, yes, so does the USA

I finally found Ataturk's great quote on religion:



Three Cheers for THAT, we could use some of that thinking over here.

And so you are suggesting that the Ataturk quote is somehow significantly removed from the intention of and reasoning behind our own First Amendment?

[EscaCsamas]

And so you are suggesting that the Ataturk quote is somehow significantly removed from the intention of and reasoning behind our own First Amendment?

Why would you say far removed? It sounds more like an explanation of America's First Amendment to me.

[houkbsdov]

Why would you say far removed? It sounds more like an explanation of America's First Amendment to me.

Yes, Dick. That was my point. I took this line from Drake's post to indicate that he thought otherwise.

Three Cheers for THAT, we could use some of that thinking over here.

[Kneeniasy]

And so you are suggesting that the Ataturk quote is somehow significantly removed from the intention of and reasoning behind our own First Amendment?

To the contrary, they seem in perfect agreement to me.

Ataturk's, IMO, actually states the matter a little better, it doesn't leave that loophole about "not establishing a state religion" which many Christian fundamentalists try to use to say you must have some sort of religion, we just don't care what it is. (then to argue it must be generally Christian, since we are a "Christian" country. We are, of course, but only in the sense that most of us profess Christianity)

OTOH Ataturk was making a speech, not writing law. Wise men can say wise things in many ways. And yes, we can use that kind of thinking all the time, it doesn't hurt to be reminded of it.

[Sadsidioribre]

It will all come down to who decides who is on the ballot.

If its the Army, and it appears they call the shots, if they know who butters their bread (US), they will keep the Muslim Brotherhood off the ballot.

Not so much for the U.S.... the Muslim Brotherhood is Barry's team.

It should be for motivated self-interest, ...on account of what the Iranian nutters did to their Officer Corps, ...before they fed what was left to the Iraqis...


Charting one's Military career on a sun-dial can be depressing...

[slowlexrese]

You think they're dealin' with stray kittens over there...?

Iran had a majority educated westernized population that included the Muslim Brotherhood as a minor minority voice for solidarity...

...how'd that work out. That Nation is now enslaved under Tyranny. It will now take countless lives, blood, and treasure to free them.

They were already free, save for mensa candidate thinkers like you.

Turkey...? how's that goin'...?


Egypt has nothing like what Iran had save its Military.

Iran had a pretty good Military too... until they shot almost everyone over the rank of Captain. Then they fed the rest to the Iraqis...

How do you think Israel will treat what's left of Egypt's Officer Corps, ...and all our Military hardware we gave'em, ...when the Muslim Brotherhood sends them over there...?

You've been listening to Fox News, haven't you.

Have you noticed how everything Fox News has predicted so far has been wrong? What leads you to believe that suddenly they will get it right?

[NETvoyne]

If I understand it correctly, demonstrations are planned within the next week in Libya, Yemen, Iran, Syria, Algeria and maybe somewhere else.

The region looks like it will be active.

What impresses me the most is that we have now seen two Middle East governments fall without significant blood shed. That is a first. It has never happened before. This says to me that this time it is different.

[User-Luser]

WTF is "Islamofacism?" (Other than a rightwingblogger/FoxNoise mental masturbation trigger word)

Well, it is also widely used by intelectual people such as Sarah Palin, sniper fire Hillary Clinton and Israeli cabinet

[gooseCile]

Why are so many people on this forum / in the US (according to what is discussed on your TV stupidity over there) so much into a strange racist idological worldview?

The people in Egypt are totally normal people.
They want to live peaceful, in prosperity and with dignity.
Why should anything happening there be so much different than the end of dictatorship in Europe (spain, Portugal), Turkey or south america?

All this fear mongering.

Especially about subjects like the muslim brotherhood.
Get a grip with reality people... you SERIOUSLY sound like some Nazi bastards who shouts "WELTJUDENTUM!" whenever they are confronted with something they don't care to understand.
Learn to think for yourselfs.

The muslim brotherhood is a faith based organisation that is deeply into charity and traditionally the biggest opposition to the tryranny in Egypt.
The majority of their supporters are into it due to that aspect and not due to their morals and worldview.

Do you know the saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover?" Well in this case the cover was designed by the Mubarrak dictatorship. Portraying the MB as an Al Qaeda like organisation that is soooo much more super evil than the Dictator they oppose.

Even the number of people supporting the MB is totally cherry picked out of thin air. In 2005 members of the MB won 20% of the parliamentary seats.

Why is that? Two options for you:

A-20% of the egyptian population are supporting radical islamic terrorism.

B-20% of egyptians used the chance to show their opposition to the dictatorship by voicing their opinion at the ballot box in the limited way that was possible.

Little hint: B would explain why the MB didn't field and actually openly supported independet Christian opposition canditates in areas with a high christian population.

[c2siOlIk]

I have never seen such bravery before.

Egyptians, in millions, protested 24/7 for more than two weeks, they slept outside, until the dictator Mubarak left.

So a second American Ally falls in the region. One by one they will all fall.

Obama and the west tried to play the "we are with the Egyptians" card,... "we support Decmoracy" card.... all failed. They think people are stupid,... Egyptians will NEVER forget America's 30 year support to this dictator. They paid him 1.3 Billion dollars to bend over to Israel and ensure his people are oppressed and tortured.

This is REAL democracy. 80 Million Egyptians decided he has to go and they didnt back off until he went.

Now every arab dictator is pissing his pants while Obama and Natanyahu are on the phone 24/7 trying to keep their puppets in place.

Fox News tried to play the Muslim Brotherhood card,... FAILED.... CNN was professional and covered the whole event live with opinions from all sides.

Muslim Brotherhood had nothing to do with this issue. Fox News brought some zionist commentators saying that Egypt is going down the path of Iran and MB are going to take over bla bla bla .. . . who believes these assholes anyway. They always wanna paint a negative picture of Islam and Muslims and always wanna put Israel as the victim.

Congratulations to Egyptians,... they showed us democracy the peaceful way, not the American way (dropping bombs, invading countries, 100,000s killed, etc).

WS.

[DenisMoor]

Well, it might be a little early to celebrate yet.

Mubarak is gone, but the military have taken over his role. The Egyptian Constitution doesn't allow this, and so we've seen Egyptian law trampled here.

If the military does hold elections and relinquish the power they currently unlawfully wield, then great. Awesome.

If not, what's really changed?

Matt

[aNoBVsUW]

Why are so many people on this forum / in the US (according to what is discussed on your TV stupidity over there) so much into a strange racist idological worldview?

The people in Egypt are totally normal people.
They want to live peaceful, in prosperity and with dignity.
Why should anything happening there be so much different than the end of dictatorship in Europe (spain, Portugal), Turkey or south america?

All this fear mongering.

Especially about subjects like the muslim brotherhood.
Get a grip with reality people... you SERIOUSLY sound like some Nazi bastards who shouts "WELTJUDENTUM!" whenever they are confronted with something they don't care to understand.
Learn to think for yourselfs.

The muslim brotherhood is a faith based organisation that is deeply into charity and traditionally the biggest opposition to the tryranny in Egypt.
The majority of their supporters are into it due to that aspect and not due to their morals and worldview.

Do you know the saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover?" Well in this case the cover was designed by the Mubarrak dictatorship. Portraying the MB as an Al Qaeda like organisation that is soooo much more super evil than the Dictator they oppose.

Even the number of people supporting the MB is totally cherry picked out of thin air. In 2005 members of the MB won 20% of the parliamentary seats.

Why is that? Two options for you:

A-20% of the egyptian population are supporting radical islamic terrorism.

B-20% of egyptians used the chance to show their opposition to the dictatorship by voicing their opinion at the ballot box in the limited way that was possible.

Little hint: B would explain why the MB didn't field and actually openly supported independet Christian opposition canditates in areas with a high christian population.

I look at things two ways in order to grasp the reason between my thinking as an individual and then a projection of that thinking to those responsible for the safety and well being of our nation as a whole. When it all shakes out it comes down to one factor ...."Balance of Power"

A. The vestage of "One Nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all" SORT OF and

B. Facing as a nation a world of burgeoning populations and dwindling natural resources who have the same desire to maintain what they have and "then some" where only an equal or superior position (Military and political) will hopefully guarantee survival.

C. You live in a country (Germany) that has demonstrated unsuccessfully a try for "number one"(not alonein this area) with disastrous results for all concerned but indicates the "why" national leaders must concern themselves with the things "beyond the pale".

The Egyptian activity bolsters the saying 'The more things change; The more they remain the same !.

But only diamonds are forever !

[Maryjasmine]

I have never seen such bravery before.

Egyptians, in millions, protested 24/7 for more than two weeks, they slept outside, until the dictator Mubarak left.

So a second American Ally falls in the region. One by one they will all fall.

Obama and the west tried to play the "we are with the Egyptians" card,... "we support Decmoracy" card.... all failed. They think people are stupid,... Egyptians will NEVER forget America's 30 year support to this dictator. They paid him 1.3 Billion dollars to bend over to Israel and ensure his people are oppressed and tortured.

This is REAL democracy. 80 Million Egyptians decided he has to go and they didnt back off until he went.

Now every arab dictator is pissing his pants while Obama and Natanyahu are on the phone 24/7 trying to keep their puppets in place.

Fox News tried to play the Muslim Brotherhood card,... FAILED.... CNN was professional and covered the whole event live with opinions from all sides.

Muslim Brotherhood had nothing to do with this issue. Fox News brought some zionist commentators saying that Egypt is going down the path of Iran and MB are going to take over bla bla bla .. . . who believes these assholes anyway. They always wanna paint a negative picture of Islam and Muslims and always wanna put Israel as the victim.

Congratulations to Egyptians,... they showed us democracy the peaceful way, not the American way (dropping bombs, invading countries, 100,000s killed, etc).

WS.

I agree with most of what you say, and I am very happy and proud for the people of Egypt. I wish them the best to bring this peaceful revolution to a peaceful new government of their choice.

I do disagree that Obama was playing a dirty role in all this. I believe he did exactly what he needed to do: he stayed as neutral as possible as a politicien, and yet supported the people of Egypt in their struggle.

I do not believe that it is fair to assign the ugly history of the last 30 years on a President that has been in place only 2 years, and who has been so criticized by some quarters for NOT being supportive of the "status quo" in foreign relations.

Does anyone remember President Obama's speech given in Egypt in June 2009? Here is a partial quote from that speech:

"So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other.

That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn’t steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are not just American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will support them everywhere.

There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this much is clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more stable, successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments — provided they govern with respect for all their people.

This last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, government of the people and by the people sets a single standard for all who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not coercion; you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a spirit of tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your people and the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. Without these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy."

link: Full text: Barack Obama's Cairo speech | World news | guardian.co.uk Jun 4, 2009 ... Full text: Barack Obama's Cairo speech. This article was published on guardian. co.uk at 11.17 BST on Thursday 4 June 2009 . ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/.../2009/....e-speech-egypt - Cached - Similar

[freevideoandoicsI]

Thank you El Zordo and Wisdom Seeker for excellent posts about this happening in Egypt, something that will possible spill over to more countries in the Mideast. We may be on the verge of a truly historic decade in world politics, and hopefully it will be.

No one truly knows where this is going in Egypt, but from what the military leaders have said, it appears it will become a democratic country of some sort. Perhaps not what we want, perhaps even unfriendly to the US, but certainly something the Egyptian people want. Even the Muslim Brotherhood will be an important part of it, as they should.

[Depolit]

Well, it might be a little early to celebrate yet.

Mubarak is gone, but the military have taken over his role. The Egyptian Constitution doesn't allow this, and so we've seen Egyptian law trampled here.

If the military does hold elections and relinquish the power they currently unlawfully wield, then great. Awesome.

If not, what's really changed?

Matt

Yep, it's quite a distance from NOW to the future. The big question for me is, will the military relinquish its power and position, in favor of a democratic form of gov't? With opposition parties and all of the rest of it? It will be interesting to see how this plays out, IF, our corporate news even covers it to any great degree. The struggle of the people in Egypt will probably be trumped out by the next thing that nutty starlet does on the Left Coast. Doesn't take much to knock an ongoing news story off the air. Celebrity will do it every time!


Quite a bit of fear mongering coming out of Fox this week. But that is their forte, so I expected it. Too many are comparing Egypt with Iran, and that change in power where Islam took over. I don't think the comparison is valid. Unless one see all M.E. Nations as homogenous, which I sure do not. The People of Egypt are not Iranians.

If a Democracy is instilled in Egypt, a real deal one, then of course the M.B. should have representation. And if the Democracy is real, their 20 per cent numbers should not rule that Nation, they will simply have a voice. You know, like the Christian Right has one here in the States, channeled through the Republican Party.

For me, the military relinquishing its own power is the troublesome area. But it is not impossible. Hell, a couple weeks ago I would have never thought peaceful demonstrations in Egypt would have shown anything but much bloodshed, and certainly it would not have ended up as it did, with the dictator stepping down. Never say never. But it may be a long shot.

I am still overjoyed at HOW the youth of Egypt pulled this off, without the usual atrocities and bloodshed. Their first step was a very good first step. It sure got my attention. Looks like the youth copied Gandi and M.L. King in tactics. Non violence, and that it came from Muslims is astounding to me. Many in the West think all Muslims are murderous scum, and are probably reeling from these kids NOT being the Western stereotype. Bet it shocked the hell out of their system, and some even had to get a script for Xanax to maintain sanity.


The hysterics out of FOX was predictable, as they are quite good at hysterics. Couldn't exist without it really. Beck was his usual conspiracy theory self this week, and I keep waiting for that guy to have a nervous breakdown while on the air. He has built up quite the delusional world in which he thrives. Makes a ton of money for doing it too. The ego of this man is beyond the par. I think he has predicted everything, a new prophet for the masses. Personally, I think he has gone over the edge, helped along by his very devout followers. It's the Jim Jones Syndrome.

[warrgazur]

The hysterics out of FOX was predictable, as they are quite good at hysterics. Couldn't exist without it really. Beck was his usual conspiracy theory self this week, and I keep waiting for that guy to have a nervous breakdown while on the air. He has built up quite the delusional world in which he thrives. Makes a ton of money for doing it too. The ego of this man is beyond the par. I think he has predicted everything, a new prophet for the masses. Personally, I think he has gone over the edge, helped along by his very devout followers. It's the Jim Jones Syndrome.

Let me guess, beck is claiming that he predicted the recent events in Egypt years ago?

[Theorsell]

Well, it might be a little early to celebrate yet.

Mubarak is gone, but the military have taken over his role. The Egyptian Constitution doesn't allow this, and so we've seen Egyptian law trampled here.

If the military does hold elections and relinquish the power they currently unlawfully wield, then great. Awesome.

If not, what's really changed?

Matt

Lol...
The Dictator who wrote laws that allowed him to do what he did is gone. THAT changed and that is Great!
How lawful is a guy who outlaws everyone who oposes him?

I agree that the Military has to give the power to the people and then it's realy great.... but seriously... wooooo hoooo unlawful ?

The Nazis actually wrote laws making their crimes lawful... what does that mean in such a scenario?

[Xewksghy]

Lol...
The Dictator who wrote laws that allowed him to do what he did is gone. THAT changed and that is Great!
How lawful is a guy who outlaws everyone who oposes him?

I agree that the Military has to give the power to the people and then it's realy great.... but seriously... wooooo hoooo unlawful ?

The Nazis actually wrote laws making their crimes lawful... what does that mean in such a scenario?

Yes, unlawful.

Read the Egyptian Constitution - if the President is unable to perform his duties on a long term basis (i.e. he resigns), the line of secession is clearly laid out. Next in line is the Speaker of the People's Assembly. If the Speaker is not able to perform the role (such as if the parliament is disbanded), then the President of the Constitutional Court is next.

The military isn't on the list.

Therefore, if you follow the Egyptian Constitution, the military has unlawfully taken control of the government.

Matt