[averkif]

That is such B/S and you should know better. No one is under any obligation to speak out against this or that. I was raised Catholic and am of partially Irish descent, I've never once apologized for the IRA.

And yes, I do think someone who is saying who thinks Islam has a right and good reason to be proud and that Muslims should hold their heads high is a bridge builder. Someone who is trying to prove to his fellows just what makes the U.S. great. It isn't our guns or bombs or economy or inherent to the land or to the people or to some divine spark or infallible Founders. What makes the U.S. great is its freedoms, and if we don't continue to practice those freedoms then there's nothing left worth preserving.

I want reasonable, strongwilled orthodox guys like Rolf to stand up and say "America, I'm not ashamed of my religion and I'm not going to be meek" now so that in 2030 or 2040 we'll have lots and lots of nice happy reform Muslims who drink alchohol and have premarital sex but consider themselves good members of their religion because they go to service every week, just like has happened with many Christians and Jews.

The whole point of America is that you don't assimilate by becoming "more American", there is no such thing, you assimilate by being able to get along in a pluralistic society. This Rolf guy seems to be trying to do that. You can't ask people to respect your differences if you don't respect there own after all, and this is America so I think it's reasonable for the Muslims living here to expect to be treated with equal rights and not held accountable for the policy in the countries that they've left or their parents left or that they were never at because we've had some Muslims here since the founding of the country.

And yeah, the U.S. did contribute to the cause of 9/11. Doesn't justify mass murder, but that doesn't change the fact that cause and effect are real things that exist no matter how much you don't want them to. We trained the Muj to fight the Sovs, and now the Muj is fighting us. I imagine whoever we train to fight the Muj will probably turn on us eventually too. And yes, a lot of the condition of the Middle East comes from Western petroleum diplomacy and before that colonialism.

Things interact with each other, and they don't care about your pride or your patriotism or any of that. The relationships exist and yes it makes good sense to acknowledge and try to be aware of them, in order to learn from your mistakes. Not even for moral purposes, just so less stuff bites you in the ass later.

[vqIo7X2U]

It's not a threat, it's a statement.
Like
If you hold your hand in the fire, you'll get burned

Move the mosque, you strengthen AQ, and AQ hurts you.

[enencephoth]

Of course, the Imam could come out now and denounce any and all violence that might occur, but I don't think he's done that.

I wonder why?

If he has, someone please point it out for me...

[zlZ95pjt]

I don't think so. He's merely pointing out how extremists spin the real facts or even falsify them to gain an edge.

For example, earlier in the Afghan conflict, the Taliban spread rumours that American forces had desecrated Qu'rans and had even thrown a dead dog into a mosque. It was totally false, but they love stirring the pot to make people believe that the US is anti-Muslim. They also spin any facts that help them. Anti-Muslim sentiments, even by a few exceptions, is spun to make it seem like it's a rule for Americans. They'll spin the moving of the Park51 project as a triumph of anti-Muslim sentiments rather than an objection to the location itself due to sensitivity to what occurred there whereby they'll profit even moreso by the crimes they committed there on 9.11.

It's also important to note that many people in poor regions get their information sources from toxic sources and don't understand what's really going on in the US in any detail or understand how it works. For example, many poor Afghans don't realise that the POTUS and the rest of the US government doesn't have the constitutional power to stop burning of Qu'rans given their own system and way of life. Things like limited government, civil rights, etc, simply hasn't exist in their world and it's something that the UN force there is only now trying to introduce. The Taliban, AQ and other extremists have no problem whatsoever allowing the local people to have erroneous understandings and spin incidents to make it seem that: 1) the US is anti-Muslim, and 2) the government and people are just fine in allowing it and fostering it in deeds.

Then where is 'peaceful islam' in all this. If news sources over there are all toxic and the majority of people go along without question, it would seem that would mean that the majority of the muslim world is toxic/radical.. Perhaps we have just been given a bill of goods that there actualy is a 'peaceful islam.'

I did notice, that in Egypt they get the same news we get. And there are multiple multiple satellite dishes on top of all the apartment buildings. So at least in Egypt they are not living in the dark. The Egyptians were very hospitable, but of course, a lot of their GNP is tourism. And I can identify with that is so is a lot of western KY's.

[Gcromqgb]

It's not a threat, it's a statement.
Like
If you hold your hand in the fire, you'll get burned

Move the mosque, you strengthen AQ, and AQ hurts you.

Anything that happens with the mosque strengthens AQ, at least in their eyes.

Move the mosque: "America hates Muslims and Islam. Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"
Leave it there: "Allah has made the Americans afraid. It is a sign Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"
Ignore the mosque: "American is a land of infidels. Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"

No matter what we do, AQ will attempt to spin it for their own uses.

So we should cease even thinking about what those assmaggots think, and do what is right under our own traditions and laws.

Matt

[Agehoobionibe]

Anything that happens with the mosque strengthens AQ, at least in their eyes.

Move the mosque: "America hates Muslims and Islam. Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"
Leave it there: "Allah has made the Americans afraid. It is a sign Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"
Ignore the mosque: "American is a land of infidels. Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"

No matter what we do, AQ will attempt to spin it for their own uses.

So we should cease even thinking about what those assmaggots think, and do what is right under our own traditions and laws.

Matt

Where is 'peaceful islam' in that process?

[panholio]

Where is 'peaceful islam' in that process?

Embodied in the billion and a half Muslims who aren't committing violence.

[crycleascentyv]

To put it another way, many of the radicals we hear from are the Muslim equivalent to Jerry Falwell and the radical Christian right,

You should read the warm article written by Larry Flint, after the death of Jerry Falwell. Despite their ideological differences, and their initial run-in through court, it's surprising to learn that they actually developed a respectable and friendly relationship with each other. Hardly the actions of a hateful extremist.

Jerry was self-righteous and sometimes went overboard with his impulsiveness of speech, but I would hardly equate that with radical Islam. A bible thumper? Yes.

Now, the Fred Phelps' campaign is a whole other matter.

[KacypeJeope]

Islam has plenty to be ashamed of. 19 people who professed to be Muslims flew planes into the WTC, the Pentagon and a field in PA. ..

... ended up live and well!


On the other hand, terrorist acts in the Russia's republic of Dagestan happen almost dayly; and yesterday a bomb killed 16 injuring 99 in North Ossetia...

Terrorists (Chechens, Georgians, Ingush, Albanians, ..) are financed from UK and US -- countries that are not only non-Islamic, but currently engaged in "war on terror".
A bit psychopathic, really, to feed terrorists with one hand while fighting them with the other and hoping terrorists will not turn eventually on their current masters...

[RIjdrVs3]

... ended up live and well!

Bullshit.

[R1king]

Bullshit.

Sure.

It's because for Americans to think that their power-crazed elites that spread death and destruction throughout the world can do the same in their own country is unthinkable.

Get used to it.

Tracking the 19 Hijackers - web of lies

[Fiipolera]

Sure.

It's because for Americans to think that their power-crazed elites that spread death and destruction throughout the world can do the same in their own country is unthinkable.

Get used to it.

Tracking the 19 Hijackers - web of lies

Believe what you like. This is not relevant to the topic of the thread.

Matt

[MasdMnPa]

It might seem like a threat to people with poor reading comprehension skills.

Damn, that's twice this week that I've agreed with HBX. WTF is going on?

Embodied in the billion and a half Muslims who aren't committing violence.

Exactly. It's embodied in the Muslims that we all (except maybe some world-saving lawyernurseteachers) work side-by-side with every day.


Don't fool yourself into thinking that because a person doesn't look Arabic, or a woman is showing her hair, that they can't possibly be Muslim.

[uwJzsM8t]

Believe what you like. This is not relevant to the topic of the thread.

Matt

It is very relevant to the topic of the thread:

yes, most (but not all) hands-on perpetrators of terrorist acts are Muslim, but the masterminding and finances for terrorist acts come from power structures of US and UK.

The biggest threat to everyone, including Americans, come not from Imams and their "statements", but from military-industrial elites and Zionist lobby that govern US.

[Waymninelia]

No, it's not a threat... especially when taken in context. If you read the entire article, it's obvious that the Imam is not issuing a threat, he's simply stating what he thinks will happen if the mosque issue is handled poorly.

When 9-11 happened, shortly after, we were told repeatedly not to let the terrorists change our way of life. Yet, today, on all sides we are being told that we MUST change our way of life to suit them - all of them - or they will do violence to, not just our soldiers, but US citizens as well. WTF? What happend?

What, exactly, are we being told to change? Specifics please? I honestly can't think of any instances where I've had to change my way of life to suit Muslims, or where anyone has told me to do so.

[TOD4wDTQ]

Anything that happens with the mosque strengthens AQ, at least in their eyes.

Move the mosque: "America hates Muslims and Islam. Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"
Leave it there: "Allah has made the Americans afraid. It is a sign Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"
Ignore the mosque: "American is a land of infidels. Allah wants you to explode yourself on them"

No matter what we do, AQ will attempt to spin it for their own uses.

So we should cease even thinking about what those assmaggots think, and do what is right under our own traditions and laws.

Matt

Agreed. There's apparently no pleasing some people.

[N95FzmMw]

It is very relevant to the topic of the thread:

yes, most (but not all) hands-on perpetrators of terrorist acts are Muslim, but the masterminding and finances for terrorist acts come from power structures of US and UK.

The biggest threat to everyone, including Americans, come not from Imams and their "statements", but from military-industrial elites and Zionist lobby that govern US.

Ahhhh yes the Jews... must always blame it* on the Jews.





*Whatever "it" is...

[QwOpHGyZ]

Your correction is duly noted. Would you like to be my typist?

but it wasn't a typo. you did it three times.

and besides, if you're truly as educated as you always love to tell everyone, you would know how stupid a person can look when they make errors like that.

all of this doesn't change the fact that this statement is CLEARLY not a threat. anyone who understands plain english can see that.

[KLIMOV25gyi]

Ahhhh yes the Jews... must always blame it* on the Jews.

Are all Jews Zionists? Is that what you are implying?

Or is it a case that in free democratic blah, blah, blah any mention of Jews or Zionists in any negative context is a tabu?

Perhaps you are about to deny the influence of US Zionist lobby on US statesmen, US media and as a consequence on US politics?

[Jeaxatoem]

That's what I was asking. The only Muslims we seem to be hearing in the media these days are the radical fundamentalists, and as a result the general population believes that all Muslims think like these people. To put it another way, many of the radicals we hear from are the Muslim equivalent to Jerry Falwell and the radical Christian right, but because we don't know enough about the religion, we assume these people speak for all people; just as we know that the radical Christians don't speak for all Christians. I too would like to know why Muslims aren't speaking out against these radicals.

Exactly- probably scared or maybe Muslims ´just dont want to get involved´
They are from a different culture- can they ever be real Americans?
I am thinking that this whole moderate Muslim vs terorrist thing is getting out of hand and it is looking that their threats(that includes the so called peace lovin American? F-ing Imam) are working--USA is afraid of the SOBs. Too bad
we dont have a President with balls or any millitary experience-just cower bitch!