[furious1]

So we have the right to pillage and plunder wherever we want? I don't really think this is about OUR livelihood. It is about the US and our allies plundering a nation, taking THEIR food and destroying their coastline. I believe that we would have plenty without destroying Somalia.

Not at all, just like they don't have the right to attack and seize merchantmen.

[HQTheodore]

Not at all, just like they don't have the right to attack and seize merchantmen.

Oh really? Why don't they? If this were being done by a foreign country to OUR waters we would certainly feel entitled to do what it took to get it stopped.

What the western countries are doing to Somalia is criminal.

BTW: Here is where it all started:

The following excerpt has been posted on a number of websites.[5][6]:

DATE: December 12, 1991
TO: Distribution
FR: Lawrence H. Summers
Subject: GEP

'Dirty' Industries: Just between you and me, shouldn't the World Bank be encouraging MORE migration of the dirty industries to the LDCs [Least Developed Countries]? I can think of three reasons:

1) The measurements of the costs of health impairing pollution depends on the foregone earnings from increased morbidity and mortality. From this point of view a given amount of health impairing pollution should be done in the country with the lowest cost, which will be the country with the lowest wages. I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that.

2) The costs of pollution are likely to be non-linear as the initial increments of pollution probably have very low cost. I've always thought that under-populated countries in Africa are vastly UNDER-polluted, their air quality is probably vastly inefficiently low compared to Los Angeles or Mexico City. Only the lamentable facts that so much pollution is generated by non-tradable industries (transport, electrical generation) and that the unit transport costs of solid waste are so high prevent world welfare enhancing trade in air pollution and waste.

3) The demand for a clean environment for aesthetic and health reasons is likely to have very high income elasticity. The concern over an agent that causes a one in a million change in the odds of prostrate[sic] cancer is obviously going to be much higher in a country where people survive to get prostrate[sic] cancer than in a country where under 5 mortality is 200 per thousand. Also, much of the concern over industrial atmosphere discharge is about visibility impairing particulates. These discharges may have very little direct health impact. Clearly trade in goods that embody aesthetic pollution concerns could be welfare enhancing. While production is mobile the consumption of pretty air is a non-tradable.

The problem with the arguments against all of these proposals for more pollution in LDCs (intrinsic rights to certain goods, moral reasons, social concerns, lack of adequate markets, etc.) could be turned around and used more or less effectively against every Bank proposal for liberalization. Summers memo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Poeetiol]

Oh really? Why don't they? If this were being done by a foreign country to OUR waters we would certainly feel entitled to do what it took to get it stopped.

If you think they have the right to attack civilian merchantmen, capture them, and then ransom them, then we have the equal right to retaliate. Fuck them. If they want a war over this then they will get one; and it will be a war they cannot hope to win. Shitty deal? Yep, welcome to the real world. If they attack me or mine, or my allies, they have signed their own death sentence. At the end of the day they are not my people.

[yespkorg]

Summers memo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even if the Summers memo was official policy in some countries, and we had names of countries and companies who dumped and fished, I am fairly certain you would not support Eye for an Eye.

Am I right?

[Forexampleee]

If you think they have the right to attack civilian merchantmen, capture them, and then ransom them, then we have the equal right to retaliate. Fuck them. If they want a war over this then they will get one; and it will be a war they cannot hope to win. Shitty deal? Yep, welcome to the real world. If they attack me or mine, or my allies, they have signed their own death sentence. At the end of the day they are not my people.

So if someone comes to your house to steal your money and food you have no right to defend what is yours? As to the statement about war: Be wary in making this type of statement. At some point we will overextend ourselves or there will be enough others who will unite against us.

Even if the Summers memo was official policy in some countries, and we had names of countries and companies who dumped and fished, I am fairly certain you would not support Eye for an Eye.

Am I right?

So you would not shoot an intruder into your home who is there to steal your livelihood or to render your home unsuitable to live inh?

[UnmariKam]

So if someone comes to your house to steal your money and food you have no right to defend what is yours?

Indeed I have the right. I do not, however, have the right to go out and capture, then ransom, passers by. I can certainly risk doing that but will have to live with the consequenses if whoever I capture has powerful friends.

Listen, Somalia got fucked over, granted. I think they should be left alone. However, they are attacking my people and my allies. That cannot be simply left alone.

As to the statement about war: Be wary in making this type of statement. At some point we will overextend ourselves or there will be enough others who will unite against us.

And you should be wary trying to lecture me on a subject you know nothing about.

[bertanu]

Sunshine: "So if someone comes to your house to steal your money and food you have no right to defend what is yours?"

Not in Great Britain. And, in France, union thugs kidnapping managers is tolerated and their president said those burning cars should have their drivers' licenses revoked.

I wonder if the other pirates went to the area to help the pirates? Probably not.

[pprropeciaaa]

So you would not shoot an intruder into your home who is there to steal your livelihood or to render your home unsuitable to live inh?

I would. If the intruder in question was still there.

I would not go out to the sidewalk and hose down random passers by and steal their stuff.

[Immerymopay]

I would. If the intruder in question was still there.

I would not go out to the sidewalk and hose down random passers by.

According to the articles I posted, it does not seem as if the Russians are 'random passers by.'

At some point powerful nations really need to think twice about how we treat weaker nations. There is a flux to history. Powerful nations fall and weaker nations rise. We are currently paying for the mistakes we have made with other third world countries. We have left one nation in the dust who after the passage of a mere 50 years could have been our strongest ally on the world stage. Time does not stand still, and there will be a price to be paid for what we are doing to Somalia. Having dead men dragged in the street will be a minor occurrence in comparison. Somalia is a black nation and it is an Islamic nation. Read between the lines.

We talk a good game of 'self reliance' but we truly are not.

[EsAllCams]

Sunshine: "So if someone comes to your house to steal your money and food you have no right to defend what is yours?"

Not in Great Britain. And, in France, union thugs kidnapping managers is tolerated and their president said those burning cars should have their drivers' licenses revoked.

I wonder if the other pirates went to the area to help the pirates? Probably not.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

[highattainlet]

Sunshine: "So if someone comes to your house to steal your money and food you have no right to defend what is yours?"

Not in Great Britain. And, in France, union thugs kidnapping managers is tolerated and their president said those burning cars should have their drivers' licenses revoked.

I wonder if the other pirates went to the area to help the pirates? Probably not.

Yes, the Somalis absolutely DO have the right to defend what is theirs.

[VemyhemiHef]

According to the articles I posted, it does not seem as if the Russians are 'random passers by.'

At some point powerful nations really need to think twice about how we treat weaker nations. There is a flux to history. Powerful nations fall and weaker nations rise. We are currently paying for the mistakes we have made with other third world countries. We have left one nation in the dust who after the passage of a mere 50 years could have been our strongest ally on the world stage. Time does not stand still, and there will be a price to be paid for what we are doing to Somalia. Having dead men dragged in the street will be a minor occurrence in comparison.

We talk 'self reliance' but we truly are not.

I am not supporting the pillaging of Somalia, I have supported using the very same anti-piracy forces stationed there for fishery protections. I would support nation building efforts there. Al-quida is there, and its only a matter of time before they nab a LNG tanker and try driving it into a major port city before blowing it and the city up.

But no law on the face of the Earth allows a victim to steal a 3rd parties stuff.

[zilsolley3]

I am not supporting the pillaging of Somalia, I have supported using the very same anti-piracy forces stationed there for fishery protections. I would support nation building efforts there. Al-quida is there, and its only a matter of time before they nab a LNG tanker and try driving it into a major port city before blowing it and the city up.

But no law on the face of the Earth allows a victim to steal a 3rd parties stuff.

Ah, but in many cases, there is a legal doctrine called The Clean Hands Doctrine:

Unclean hands, sometimes clean hands doctrine or dirty hands doctrine[1] is an equitable defense in which the defendant argues that the plaintiff is not entitled to obtain an equitable remedy on account of the fact that the plaintiff is acting unethically or has acted in bad faith with respect to the subject of the complaint—that is, with "unclean hands".[2] The defendant has the burden of proof to show the plaintiff is not acting in good faith. The doctrine is often stated as "those seeking equity must do equity" or "equity must come with clean hands". Unclean hands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Clean Hands Doctrine is being applied at the international level. (The quote below is just the first of several instances in the link.) So don't think that the countries that are dumping toxic waste and fishing illegally get a pass here and the Somalis will be punished as the aggressor. That will not happen if justice (equity) is ever done. And history has a way of doing justice.


[p. 272 D.O. Schwebel] In contemporary international law, the State which first undertakes specified unprovoked, unlawful uses of force against another State - such as substantial involvement in the sending of armed bands onto its territory - is, prima facie, the aggressor. On examination, Nicaragua's status as the prima facie aggressor can only be definitively confirmed. Moreover, Nicaragua has compounded its delictual behaviour by pressing false testimony on the Court in a deliberate effort to conceal it. Accordingly, on both grounds, Nicaragua does not come before the Court with clean hands. Judgment in its favour is thus unwarranted, and would be unwarranted even if it should be concluded - as it should not be - that the responsive actions of the United States were unnecessary or disproportionate. World Court Digest

[oranowdenda]

The Clean Hands Doctrine is being applied at the international level. (The quote below is just the first of several instances in the link.) So don't think that the countries that are dumping toxic waste and fishing illegally get a pass here and the Somalis will be punished as the aggressor. That will not happen if justice (equity) is ever done. And history has a way of doing justice.

I don't think those dumping and fishing illegally should get a free pass. I don't think merchant ships trying to go around Somalia are fishing or dumping illegally. They have clean hands, and the pirates are the aggressors.

If the pirates catch a ship dumping or fishing illegally, then by all means, grab them by the short hairs and expose them for all the world to see. Until then the pirates are hostis humani generis.

[peemovvie]

I don't think those dumping and fishing illegally should get a free pass. I don't think merchant ships trying to go around Somalia are fishing or dumping illegally. They have clean hands, and the pirates are the aggressors.

If the pirates catch a ship dumping or fishing illegally, then by all means, grab them by the short hairs and expose them for all the world to see. Until then the pirates are hostis humani generis.

Progress!

[awagsFare]

Progress!

huh? Neither you or Commodore have modified your positions.

[mireOpekrhype]

Progress!

So we are in agreement.

Go Spetsnaz!

[Lymnempomma]

So we are in agreement.

Go Spetsnaz!

Up to a point. I am not sure how a weak group like the Somalis would be able to police the waters well enough to catch every ship that was violating their waters in the act. Personally, I think WE need to stop that shit, clean up our mess, and help them. We let China slip away when we had the chance and we haven't learned a damn thing since, IMO.

[Lapsinuibense]

Up to a point. I am not sure how a weak group like the Somalis would be able to police the waters well enough to catch every ship that was violating their waters in the act. Personally, I think WE need to stop that shit, clean up our mess, and help them. We let China slip away when we had the chance and we haven't learned a damn thing since, IMO.

Is it our mess? Why is it our mess? And what do you propose we do to China about it? You do realize that China can hurt us way more than we can hurt them?

[Cd9JfGHR]

Is it our mess? Why is it our mess? And what do you propose we do to China about it? You do realize that China can hurt us way more than we can hurt them?

Zing........over your head like a 747.