[leacturavar]

I don't care what the Pentagon says, but it's 'catch and release' in this case for sure:

The US sunk another pirate ship yesterday and let the captured pirates go.

U.S. Navy Ship Grabs More Pirates, Lets Them Go
Pirate Mother Ship Sunk, Captured Pirates Released in Small Skiffs
By DANA HUGHES and KIRIT RADIA
NAIROBI, Kenya April 2, 2010

A U.S. Navy ship has sunk a pirate "mother ship" in the Indian Ocean and captured 11 pirates, and then promptly let them go.

It was the second time within 24 hours that U.S. forces captured Somali pirates. Earlier Thursday, five pirates were taken into custody after they attacked a U.S. warship.

While those five pirates remain in custody, the 11 captured Thursday were allowed to leave in small skiffs after the mother ship was sunk. The action prompted a Pentagon spokesman to deny that the Navy had a "catch and release" policy regarding pirates.

. . . Pirates Captured and Released - ABC News

The linked article above concludes with this dilemma concerning the 5 captured pirate still aboard the USS Nicholas:

. . . It's not clear what the Navy intends to do with the pirates still in custody.

One option includes handing suspected pirates over to Puntland officials in Northern Somalia. Convicted pirate 31 year-old Ibrahim Nour told ABC News he was turned over by the French Navy, and is currently in a high-security prison in Bossaso, Puntland's largest port city. In Somalia, a conviction of piracy is often met with a death sentence, but Navy officials said there are questions over whether Somalia's weak government structure meets international justice standards.

So far only one pirate has been returned to the U.S. for prosecution. That pirate was the lone survivor of an attempt to kidnap Capt. Richard Philips after a bungled attempt to hijack his ship, the Maersk Alabama. Until a few days ago, Kenya was agreeing to prosecute captured pirates on behalf of other nations, but the deal is now blown up:

General News Kenya To Stop Prosecuting Somali Pirates Captured In International Operations
4/1/2010 4:12 PM ET

(RTTNews) - Kenya announced Thursday that it will not try any more pirates detained in international piracy operations off the coast of Somalia, accusing the international community of failing to keep up its obligations in sharing the burden in prosecuting and imprisoning the detained pirates.

"For the last two weeks we have declined to accept captured pirates from some of our friendly countries and told them to try it elsewhere," Kenyan Foreign Minister Moses Wetangula announced at a press conference in Nairobi.

"We discharged our international obligation. Others shied away from doing so. And we cannot bear the burden of the international responsibility," the minister added.

. . .
Kenya To Stop Prosecuting Somali Pirates Captured In International Operations

See also:

allAfrica.com: Kenya: Nation Laments Pirates' Burden

Whew, a big round of hisses, whistles and boos goes out to the EU and others for blowing a very workable deal for handling captured pirates. They just found out that dumping captured pirates on Kenya and not honouring their side of the prosecution agreement with Kenya isn't as easy as dumping toxic and other waste into Somali coastal waters that, in conjunction with overfishing it, have helped cause the piracy problem itself.

IMO, on the preventative side, I believe the international community should put an end to the dumping and overfishing practices of numerous nations--especially the First World ones--who have taken advantage of Somalia's broken nation situation to dump their waste in its waters and overfish it. It helped cause the piracy problem as a result given the Somali fishermen have substantially lost their ability to make a living and created anger against those responsible for that. With that, attempts should be made to deal with the coastal Somalis to restore their legitimate means of making a living as best as possible (e.g., making local deals to protect their fishing rights and buy their catches, etc, offer trade in goods for catches, etc).

On the law enforcement side, it's now a clusterf**k. For example, 'catch and release' of pirates will only allow them to head back to shore and go back out again. IMO, that solves nothing in the Big Picture. For the US, bringing captured pirates back to the US for prosecution hasn't been expensive so far with only one captured pirate in New York awaiting trial, but it's going to start adding up with the increased enforcement if they are to be sent to the US for trial. For places like the EU, they can't turn them over to Somalia given it imposes the death penalty upon pirates unless they agree to waive that punishment. Somalia's 'government' is a mess insofar as power and problems, and they likely aren't too keen on now handling loads of captured pirates on their already big plate of problems. Thus, debates are now wide open for handling them.

So, lots of scenarios and evaluations are now in play for discussion, and I'd like to get a conversation going on the broader aspects of the topic insofar as thoughts, proposals, etc.

[VDAu5p33]

The following excerpt has been posted on a number of websites.[5][6]:

DATE: December 12, 1991
TO: Distribution
FR: Lawrence H. Summers
Subject: GEP

'Dirty' Industries: Just between you and me, shouldn't the World Bank be encouraging MORE migration of the dirty industries to the LDCs [Least Developed Countries]? I can think of three reasons:

1) The measurements of the costs of health impairing pollution depends on the foregone earnings from increased morbidity and mortality. From this point of view a given amount of health impairing pollution should be done in the country with the lowest cost, which will be the country with the lowest wages. I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that.

2) The costs of pollution are likely to be non-linear as the initial increments of pollution probably have very low cost. I've always thought that under-populated countries in Africa are vastly UNDER-polluted, their air quality is probably vastly inefficiently low compared to Los Angeles or Mexico City. Only the lamentable facts that so much pollution is generated by non-tradable industries (transport, electrical generation) and that the unit transport costs of solid waste are so high prevent world welfare enhancing trade in air pollution and waste.

3) The demand for a clean environment for aesthetic and health reasons is likely to have very high income elasticity. The concern over an agent that causes a one in a million change in the odds of prostrate[sic] cancer is obviously going to be much higher in a country where people survive to get prostrate[sic] cancer than in a country where under 5 mortality is 200 per thousand. Also, much of the concern over industrial atmosphere discharge is about visibility impairing particulates. These discharges may have very little direct health impact. Clearly trade in goods that embody aesthetic pollution concerns could be welfare enhancing. While production is mobile the consumption of pretty air is a non-tradable.

The problem with the arguments against all of these proposals for more pollution in LDCs (intrinsic rights to certain goods, moral reasons, social concerns, lack of adequate markets, etc.) could be turned around and used more or less effectively against every Bank proposal for liberalization. Summers memo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers


And so it goes.

[taesrom]

[WUlcN1Rz]

So, lots of scenarios and evaluations are now in play for discussion, and I'd like to get a conversation going on the broader aspects of the topic insofar as thoughts, proposals, etc.

Kill the pirates... problem solved. Must you kill them all? No, not if they are anywhere near intelligent. You only need kill 'enough'

'enough' being defined as 'enough to make the remaining pirates find something else to do.'

Toward this end, whenever possible, pirates should be decapitated (before or after death)... their bodies sent back to land on the tide to wash up on the shore. Their heads should be attached to the mast or railing of the ship taking it... as a clear sign of what happens to pirates when they try and take that ship.

Done correctly, this should all end within the month.

[Natashasuw]

[Peabelilt]

[Clarissa]

If it makes the bleeding hearts feel any better, the same Western naval forces patrolling the waters for pirates can enforce fishing rights and watch for people dumping crap.

But pirates get no quarter.

They get torpedos.

[brorwargy]

Should dumpers get torpedoes too?

[hotsaucemidl]

Kill the pirates... problem solved. Must you kill them all? No, not if they are anywhere near intelligent. You only need kill 'enough'

'enough' being defined as 'enough to make the remaining pirates find something else to do.'

Toward this end, whenever possible, pirates should be decapitated (before or after death)... their bodies sent back to land on the tide to wash up on the shore. Their heads should be attached to the mast or railing of the ship taking it... as a clear sign of what happens to pirates when they try and take that ship.

Done correctly, this should all end within the month.

Most people who fear death have probably already factored that by not engaging in it given it's an inherently dangerous profession by nature. Pirates are getting killed as we speak; that hasn't deterred it.

Also, patrolling for pirates is very difficult given the nature of the ocean. It's one reason, for example, that the convoy system worked so well in both World Wars. When ships are brought together in packs, it actually made them harder to find and spot by the enemy given the vastness of the ocean. It also made the ships easier to protect. A convoy system for these areas might be one defensive solution in that regard if they can be organised effectively. It's also wise that shipping crews are starting to take stronger security measures on their own ships. The bigger issue, however, is how to end piracy, and such ideas will take more than just that IMO.

[SinyugiN]

If it makes the bleeding hearts feel any better . . .

Bleeding hearts? Try bleeding wallets. Factor that into the equation.

the same Western naval forces patrolling the waters for pirates can enforce fishing rights and watch for people dumping crap.

Good idea, especially since some of those ships have stood by and watched it.

[WaicurtaitfuT]

http://vcab.homeip.net:81/Mirrors/in...acy/index.html


Ould-

Since the containers came ashore, hundreds of residents have fallen ill, suffering from mouth and abdominal bleeding, skin infections and other ailments.

“We [the UNEP] had planned to do a proper, in-depth scientific assessment on the magnitude of the problem. But because of the high levels of insecurity onshore and off the Somali coast, we are unable to carry out an accurate assessment of the extent of the problem,” he said.

Ould-Abdallah claims the practice still continues. “What is most alarming here is that nuclear waste is being dumped. Radioactive uranium waste that is potentially killing Somalis and completely destroying the ocean,” he said.

There are apparently legal reasons for not naming the companies involved in waste dumping.The practice helps fuel the 18-year-old civil war in Somalia as companies are paying Somali government ministers to dump their waste, or to secure licenses and contracts.

“There is no government control … and there are few people with high moral ground … [and] yes, people in high positions are being paid off, but because of the fragility of the TFG [Transitional Federal Government], some of these companies now no longer ask the authorities – they simply dump their waste and leave.”

There are ethical questions to be considered because


“The Somali coastline has been destroyed, and we believe
this money is nothing compared to the devastation that we have seen on the seas.” he added.

The MV Faina, a Ukrainian ship carrying tanks and military hardware, off Somalia’s northern coast is being held for ransom.

The International Maritime Bureau states 61 attacks by pirates have been reported since the start of the year.

Money is the primary objective of the hijackings; however, claims of the continued environmental destruction off Somalia’s coast have been largely ignored by the region’s maritime authorities.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy for Somalia said there is “reliable information” that European and Asian companies are dumping toxic waste, including nuclear waste, off the Somali coastline.
The above are some quotes from the linked article. (And if they are not in order, my apolgies.)

This is really a problem in which the person who is acting out (pirate) is only evidence of much deeper problems. (My apologies for throwing in a little Family Theory there.) There is not merely one cause here and to think that is reductionist. There are companies making huge profits, and governments selling out their own citizens. And in the mean time the poor/ordinary citizens there are suffering the consequences in terms of illness and death.

This type of waste has been a problem for years. We even had it to wash up in the Great Lakes. In reality, we don't know WHERE all this has been put. And 20 years ago, who would have anticipated a tsunami which would wash it all up on the shore.

Ould-Abdallah said. “The intentions of these pirates are not concerned with protecting their environment. What is ultimately needed is a functioning, effective government that will get its act together and take control of its affairs.” I think the above statement is what is needed. They need a functioning government. We have a tendency to think a third world country will never get its act together, but in my lifetime alone, I have seen it happen. And we need to hold our own people accountable for this as well. Where does a company get off doint this? I am far less concerned about global warming than I am about something like this. The waste is cranked out every day in industrialized nations. Dumping it on the shores of a poor nation is not the answer to the problem. I predict that those involved will be called to task and made to clean it up. We, of course, will pay for that while those companies have already pocketed the profits.

[Zarekylin75]

Should dumpers get torpedoes too?

Depends on whether we want whatever they were dumping to explode and or burn before ending up in the ocean anyway.

Frankly, whatever country decides that stuffing their nuclear waste into a container and dropping it out to sea is a good idea is probably barely a step ahead of Somalia anyway.

[Uttephabeta]

Depends on whether we want whatever they were dumping to explode and or burn before ending up in the ocean anyway.

Frankly, whatever country decides that stuffing their nuclear waste into a container and dropping it out to sea is a good idea is probably barely a step ahead of Somalia anyway.

That would be the US.

http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/1670872-post2.html

[CealialactBek]

Good question!

Why is it that the only piracy that anyone here cares about the kind that involves interfering with the commerce of affluent nations? Why does taking an American ship captain hostage inspire homicidal rage, while the poisoning of Somali kids by Europeans is met with more indifference than outrage? European Companies Dumping Toxic Waste Off Coast Of Somalia - Democratic Underground

[N95FzmMw]

Good question!



European Companies Dumping Toxic Waste Off Coast Of Somalia - Democratic Underground

Nobody in Europe ever does anything wrong. We all know this... we hear it here every day.

Only America does the wrong thing. Ever...

[oscilsoda]

That would be the US.

http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/1670872-post2.html

That would be the world bank.

[regfortruegoo]

Most people who fear death have probably already factored that by not engaging in it given it's an inherently dangerous profession by nature. Pirates are getting killed as we speak; that hasn't deterred it.

Not really, and partially for the reason you list next. The pirates may believe that one day, if they keep attacking ship, they'll be caught; but the chance of such a thing happening per attack is so low as to be negligible. Traditionally, force is the only strategy that's been effective in dealing with large-scale piracy.

Also, patrolling for pirates is very difficult given the nature of the ocean. It's one reason, for example, that the convoy system worked so well in both World Wars. When ships are brought together in packs, it actually made them harder to find and spot by the enemy given the vastness of the ocean. It also made the ships easier to protect. A convoy system for these areas might be one defensive solution in that regard if they can be organized effectively. It's also wise that shipping crews are starting to take stronger security measures on their own ships. The bigger issue, however, is how to end piracy, and such ideas will take more than just that IMO.

That might work to some degree, I suppose; having ships assemble in the Atlantic and escorted by warships thru the Indian at set intervals, but they'd still be vulnerable in the Suez. It would slow down shipping, and undoubtedly there would those who would decide to go it alone, as they'd be paid extra for arriving early. They'd be the most likely targets for piracy.

A blockade of the ports in question could also work; that is putting warships 15-20 off the coast and sinking anyone that decided to venture beyond that point.

[theonsushv]

That would be the world bank.

[smokeberly]

Kill the pirates... problem solved. Must you kill them all? No, not if they are anywhere near intelligent. You only need kill 'enough'

'enough' being defined as 'enough to make the remaining pirates find something else to do.'

Toward this end, whenever possible, pirates should be decapitated (before or after death)... their bodies sent back to land on the tide to wash up on the shore. Their heads should be attached to the mast or railing of the ship taking it... as a clear sign of what happens to pirates when they try and take that ship.

Done correctly, this should all end within the month.

A reactionary's answer to everthing. "Kill 'em!"

[EvonsRorgon]

Not really, and partially for the reason you list next. The pirates may believe that one day, if they keep attacking ship, they'll be caught; but the chance of such a thing happening per attack is so low as to be negligible. Traditionally, force is the only strategy that's been effective in dealing with large-scale piracy.



That might work to some degree, I suppose; having ships assemble in the Atlantic and escorted by warships thru the Indian at set intervals, but they'd still be vulnerable in the Suez. It would slow down shipping, and undoubtedly there would those who would decide to go it alone, as they'd be paid extra for arriving early. They'd be the most likely targets for piracy.

A blockade of the ports in question could also work; that is putting warships 15-20 off the coast and sinking anyone that decided to venture beyond that point.

And we continue to dump hazardous waste there?