[EspnaConCam]

Besides, the idea ought to be for the US to lighten its debt load, and not for the EU to pile up its own debt to join the US in the land of the maximally indebted. The US should learn from the EU on this, and not the other way around.

[peemovvie]

Given Europe's track record (starting every world war, killing millions upon millions), there needs to be some adult supervision there.

Matt

They're too stupid to learn from their history?

[nuveem7070]

Given Europe's track record (starting every world war, killing millions upon millions), there needs to be some adult supervision there.

Matt

And if you look at the track record since WWII, the US has been involved in far more wars than the EU countries.

[Rffkwfct]

I am not optimistic. IMO, Europe doesn't have the spine to fight another, major war.

That said, as far as conventional threats go, I'd still put Russia down as a threat. Especially given their recent actions and rhetoric. Then there is, of course, China.

China will swoop across the Middle East to attack the EU? And as for Russia, it would not attack Europe, even on practical grounds, while its got China and Japan, two quite powerful nations in their own right, kissing its Eastern borders. Not to mention other countries Russia borders. Russia's got a lot of borders to cover, not to mention its own internal issues, to worry about going to war with Europe just to... well, I don't know... just to make it in the news?

[heltduell]

Who knows? They've been supervised since the last outbreak of Word War.

(I'm being facetious, by the way. Returning to Bennyhill the sort of idiocy he inflicts on the rest of the forum. His threads can't be taken remotely seriously, so why not have some fun with them?)

And i take it their diapers have been regularly changed too, and the milk bottle was always kept at a comfortable temperature?

[Carfanate]

I am not talking about ability. Europe has plenty of weapons. What I am talking about is the will. IMO, Europe as a whole has become weak. Diplomacy has its place but so does violence.

I will also have to disagree when it comes to Russia. I believe one of the only reasons Russia has decided to remain largely out of western European business is because of the US. Strategically, we are still Europe's ace in the hole. If push comes to shove we are still there. Remove America from the equation and you will have a Europe without its largest, strategic parter and with a Europe that doesn't, IMO, have the stomach to put up much of a fight.

I agree. Those Russians are just a bunch of violent lunatics waiting to burst out of their cage. It's just in the blood, ya know. They just can't help it, those frothing-at-the-mouth savages. And as for Europe, it definitely needs to lighten up about wanton violence. I'm sure once they get a taste of it, they'll like it. It just takes a first taste of blood to awaken the beast within you.

[worldofwarcraft]

You are seriously claiming that Europeans would not fight for their freedom in such a scenario ?
And the point where we disagree is the economy. Russia would flush its own down the toilet should it attack western Europe, even left the US out of the question.
What purpose would such an attack have by the way ?
And that Russias army would be capable of defeating ALL western european militaries, among them nuclear powers like France and Britain also rather seems science fiction to me. The military option does not exist in Europe anymore, for nobody.

B... b... but where will all the jobs come from if the EU doesn't increase military spending, especially in a recession. Nothing like a good war to get the money flowing again.

[b3JOkwXL]

I believe they would fight. What I doubt is their ability to go as far as a country like, say Russia, would. To remain in a long, bitter slug match.

Could be any number of reasons. The Russian government looking to rally their people around a common cause, maybe? Or some crazed nationalist thinking Russia should be at the top of the European power ladder? We are already seeing their leaders calling for Russia to return to its former glory, whatever that means.

Are they capable of it now? No. Will they be in the future? Maybe. They are currently revamping their military structure and strategy, at a time when most European militaries are being downsized and allowed to 'decay'.

And what about the ultra-right-leaning British National Party, which has already gotten some representatives in the EU Parliament?

The British National Party — Home

Oh, I'm sorry. They're Anglo-Saxon, and so are incapable of such atrocities. People must have just not known that the BNP stood for when they voted for it... Yeah right.

[gardeniyas]

The only country that can take on the EU military is the US. And all potential enemies (China, India, Russia) are economically dependent on the EU (and the US).

There's no need for the EU to increase it's defence budget.

Also: Europe doesn't have the will to fight a war now. Because there isn't a war we should be fighting. That will to fight will be there if Europe is attacked.

[ireleda]

And what about the ultra-right-leaning British National Party, which has already gotten some representatives in the EU Parliament?

The British National Party — Home

Oh, I'm sorry. They're Anglo-Saxon, and so are incapable of such atrocities. People must have just not known that the BNP stood for when they voted for it... Yeah right.

*Sigh* two representives on a very small proportion of the vote in Yorkshire and Lancashire...

Some people don't know what the BNP stand for, othrs life their breed of racism but they're not a viable option in a real election or representive of pretty much anyone (as they poll between 1-2% in the UK)

[Storwaytozy]

And i take it their diapers have been regularly changed too, and the milk bottle was always kept at a comfortable temperature?

If you don't know what facetious means, look it up.

Matt

[qp0yfHOf]

Does anybody have some more up to date numbers? In the german wiki I found these:

country / # / $ p.a.
EU 1.834.337 / 293.355.000.000
Russ 1.207.000 / 85.000.000.000
China 2.300.000 / 84.900.000.000
US 1.332.300 / 574.940.000.000

EU numbers are only EU & NATO countries / without turkey, swiss etc.

Based on these I'd say EU spends enough to face cases of emergency.

[nuabuncarnigo]

1. That depends on a number of reasons, for example how far such an attack would go.

Agreed.

2. That all depends on a number of premises and interpretations. I see no reason to doubt that Russias business community and the majority of its people prefer to build their country, trade and travel instead of a confrontation that would be to nobodys benefit. And you should also see that Putin is among others the man of big business in Russia. The oligarchs that are backing him would be the first to loose enormous amounts of money in that case. And support for him also has to a large extent economic reasons regarding ordinary Russians. His governement is already for that reason unlikely to make any such moves towards western Europe.

Maybe, maybe not. Of course this whole hypothetical situation is based on the premise of the US not being there for Europe anymore. It also assumes that Europe could remain united against such a large, and power outside threat.

And western european militaries are in a period of transformation and restructuring ( for example through forming european army structures). That is not the same as decay.

Gonna have to disagree here. I have the honor of working with the militaries of a few different EU militaries. All, from what I have see, had subpar equipment on the individual soldier level. However, decay goes beyond just equipment. There is also a mental aspect to that decay.

[Maryjasmine]

The only country that can take on the EU military is the US. And all potential enemies (China, India, Russia) are economically dependent on the EU (and the US).

Times change my friend. IMO, Russia still poses a very real, long-term strategic threat to European security.

[TeksPaisimi]

Does anybody have some more up to date numbers? In the german wiki I found these:

country / # / $ p.a.
EU 1.834.337 / 293.355.000.000
Russ 1.207.000 / 85.000.000.000
China 2.300.000 / 84.900.000.000
US 1.332.300 / 574.940.000.000

EU numbers are only EU & NATO countries / without turkey, swiss etc.

Based on these I'd say EU spends enough to face cases of emergency.

Sadly, it is not only a case of money.

[patrycjakolekk]

Times change my friend. IMO, Russia still poses a very real, long-term strategic threat to European security.

Indeed times change. The trouble is we don't know which way. As it stands we have a technological and economic advantage over the Russians. As long as we maintain those we'll be fine (and given the huge difference in economic power it can be maintained). And there's always the threat of MAD to make sure that there's no actual invasion.

The Russians can become a threat, but they arn't one at the moment (nor is the EU one to Russia). Spending should be increased when they become a threat, the current spending is enough to cover the 'long-term strategic threat which didn't come out of it's shell yet' (it rimes!).

[pBiRXp8u]

Indeed times change. The trouble is we don't know which way. As it stands we have a technological and economic advantage over the Russians. As long as we maintain those we'll be fine (and given the huge difference in economic power it can be maintained). And there's always the threat of MAD to make sure that there's no actual invasion.

The Russians can become a threat, but they arn't one at the moment (nor is the EU one to Russia). Spending should be increased when they become a threat, the current spending is enough to cover the 'long-term strategic threat which didn't come out of it's shell yet' (it rimes!).

Indeed. The winds can blow either way and the Norns weave what they will. However, given the rhetoric coming out of Russia, I think we can get a pretty good indication of which way they are going. Does that mean was is assured? Of course not. But it does make the threat that much more real. Remove America from the equation of European defense and you may have Russia sensing an opportunity.

To be fair, I believe there are a few nations in Europe (both in and out of the EU) who view Russia as a threat.

All that said, should a spending increase ever become needed within the European militaries, the European governments face a very hard uphill climb in getting their people mentally ready. IMO, I don't think the average European has the spine to see their social benefits decrease in exchange for military spending.

[ExpodoDop]

All that said, should a spending increase ever become needed within the European militaries, the European governments face a very hard uphill climb in getting their people mentally ready. IMO, I don't think the average European has the spine to see their social benefits decrease in exchange for military spending.

It's going to be hard without a clear reason that's visible to everyone. With that reason it's not going to be hard.

[PriernPayorse]

It's going to be hard without a clear reason that's visible to everyone. With that reason it's not going to be hard.

I honestly hope you (and others here) are right. However, I have not seen very much come out of Europe to make me optimistic.