[PyncGyncliacy]

Shit like this is exactly the reason we should pay down the debt, starting with the debt owned by the Chinese.

We certainly should stand behind Taiwan and our treaty.

[Enfonebew]

Well, IMO, they're just as dependent upon us. As for the loans China has given us, as J Paul Getty once said: "If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem." Plus, they have big trade interests with the US. The US and China like to criticise each other, sometime rightfully and sometimes wrongfully, but each pretty much is dependent upon the other. If China attacks Taiwan, it will have a hell of a problem given the Taiwanese alone. Trying to invade it is one set of lumps internationally and between Taiwan, and trying to hold it if they succeed in invading it is permanent set of them. As Minister Tallyrand quipped: "You can do anything with bayonets...except sit on them." If the Taiwanese don't want Red China taking it over, all Red China will be doing is swallowing a razor blade trying to successfully conquer it.

They are dependent on us, OSB, but IMO their dependence on us is just not the same type of dependence. And it is somewhat difficult to explain what I mean. One major way we differ is in our standard of living. When I went I was with a group of nurses. And as such, we live very differently that the nurses in China. We all have our own homes and individual lives. In China, the nurses live in the hospital. They have their own 'quarters' 6 to a room, bunk beds and very few personal belongings. We are so invested in our 'lifestyles' here that to lose that would be in many cases insurmountable. There, such loss would change very little in the lives of the individual. Globally speaking, yes, they ARE dependent on us. Individually, I'm not sure they really are. And one but has to drive past miles and miles of the communist apartments all of which have the thermoses that holds their boiled water sitting in the windows.

[casinobonbiner]

ahoy me friends!

i seldom post much in part 'o our ports, but i was wonderin'...should the United States rescind its 6 billion in arms shipments to Taiwan. we need to remain in the good graces 'o the powerful nation 'o China, fer we need'm to keep buyin' our treasury bonds (i think that what they be called). i worry that we're bitin' the hand that feeds us by doin' anythin' that might anger our powerful friends.

i feel badly, fer the profits 'o companies like Lockheed Martin and Raytheon will be hurt if we cannot continue to export weapons to the folks we wish to, but don't ye thinks it be dangerous to arouse the ire 'o the Chinese, 'specially when we need thar financial aid more than ever?


Asia Times Online :: China News, China Business News, Taiwan and Hong Kong News and Business.

i mean, with all the troubles we have, what be the chance that we'd take on the mighty Chinese in a military struggle, should they decide to invade Taiwan?

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

The Chinese miliary have been modernizing for two primary reasons:
1. To protect their economic interests, and
2. To keep pace wit the Westernized world.

Keep in mind that the Boxer Rebellion and how Western powere dominated daily Chinese life is still fresh with most of the leadership and local populace And I seriously doubt the government will invade on a moment's whim.

For the past 10 years, both China and Taiwan have had low key economic and educational conferneces to help with the cross straits issues. And China still needs foreign direct investment from the US, Korea, and Japan to sustain its economy.

[saopinax]

We are obligated by treaty to defend Taiwan.

Why does China have such a problem with self determination?

Because they view Taiwan, not to mention Hong Kong, Macau, and Tibet, as part of China.

[violetgorman]

They are dependent on us, OSB, but IMO their dependence on us is just not the same type of dependence. And it is somewhat difficult to explain what I mean. One major way we differ is in our standard of living. When I went I was with a group of nurses. And as such, we live very differently that the nurses in China. We all have our own homes and individual lives. In China, the nurses live in the hospital. They have their own 'quarters' 6 to a room, bunk beds and very few personal belongings. We are so invested in our 'lifestyles' here that to lose that would be in many cases insurmountable. There, such loss would change very little in the lives of the individual. Globally speaking, yes, they ARE dependent on us. Individually, I'm not sure they really are. And one but has to drive past miles and miles of the communist apartments all of which have the thermoses that holds their boiled water sitting in the windows.

Yes and no. I am not sure which city or when you went, but I have seen major changes in most of the cities. Yes, there are, what we would call slums, and then there are the high rise apartments. What is interesting is the rising middle class in China. As such, things are improving. The living conditions we see today in China can be described what the living conditions in the early 20th century where running water was not available everywhere.

The main problem with the housing, at least from my perspective, is there is no resale value. Once you buy the apartment, you pretty much stay there for life. Also, China tends to build up and not out as does the US, most notaly in the SE, South, SW, and West parts of the country. It is different and as such you cannot make a comparison.

[WumibBesowe]

because we couldn't stop'm if they did. not at cost that was acceptable, at any rate.

Really? China, as it stands now, is incapable of forcing the straight.

[thomaskkk]

Really? China, as it stands now, is incapable of forcing the straight.

*nods to Thorhammer*

According to at least one high-ranking official, the United States has systematically underestimated the pace and scope of Chinese military modernization for years. On Oct. 21 in an interview with the Voice of America, the incoming Commander of U.S. Pacific Command (USPACOM), Admiral Robert F. Willard, USN, told reporters that, "In the past decade or so, China has exceeded most of our intelligence estimates of their military capability and capacity, every year. ... They've grown at an unprecedented rate in those capabilities. And, they've developed some asymmetric capabilities that are concerning to the region, some anti-access capabilities and so on." Willard should know. Prior to becoming the USPACOM commander, he was in command of all U.S. naval forces in the Pacific; before that, he was Vice Chief of Naval Operations. http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/post...hinas_military

*shrugs*

aye Thorhammer, if that be how ye feels, imma okies with that. i understand that ye certainly have a greater understandin' 'o US military capabilities. i would only add that our powerful country's resources (both financial and military) be stretched to its limit, and our ability to fund our military comes, indirectly, from the Chinese government.

we cannot afford to cross the Chinese in a military arena...the costs involved would scuttle our land, once and fer good. should China invade taiwan (somethin' thats very unlikely, taiwan and china be gettin' along quite well of late), the idear 'o the United States thunderin' to its rescue seems absurd. we cannot afford it, and the the will 'o the american people would never rally behind that kinda conflict. the Tea Party movement would certainly be screamin' bloody murder about it.

be that as it may, thats not really the point 'o me thread.

this be me point;

China’s foreign minister warned that U.S. will sell $6.4 billion of arms to Taiwan will harm Chinese efforts to unify peacefully with the island, the ministry said Sunday, after China suspended U.S. military exchanges and threatened unprecedented sanctions against American defense companies. China Hits Back At U.S. Arms Sale To Taiwan | Mil-Tech

the united states 'o america needs a benevolent China to succor us in this time 'o economic catastrophe. the last thing we need be them folks in the far east takin' a dim view 'o our country, and we'd do well to heed thar words. it doesn't do well to cross yer benefactors.

*bows*

- MeadHallPirate

[Jxlacvio]

ahoy oh Commodore!

i hath returned to our decks me friend, with a devastatin' observation from me own father, a sea dog 'o many voyages. me father served in the Republic 'o China's army back in the day, it was called Formosa back then. he found yer conclusions errant and the language he used was rather salty, so i'll give ye a censored take.

"is this a $*%^ing joke? jets travel at over 600 miles per hour, tell your friend that the distance from the shores of china to taiwan is 100 miles. if china wanted to invade taiwan, they could have complete air control before the seventh fleet even turned around. $*#)ing china would also have the island blockaded, so tell me how the (^&#ing marines are going to even land? ask your friend how many marines it would take to hold off China, and where the $#(* is he going to get them from? they are all busy in the middle east and afghanistan. now let me watch the football game and stop asking me these %#@(ing stupid questions."

me father then more or less ignored me fer the next half an hour. he uses some colorful language, he does.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

*nods*

Sorry, this just cracked me up.

Meadhall, are you saying that your father swears like a sailor?

[PZXjoe]

Sorry, this just cracked me up.

Meadhall, are you saying that your father swears like a sailor?

haha, aye, me friend, aye!

MeadHallPirate senior kinda talks a little like our poster, Steve, in real life. he uses many F words in private discourse.

*bows*

- MeadHallPirate

[OGOGOogoloshennya]

I just want to pull out this obvious incongruence/lie from your quote.

China’s foreign minister warned that U.S. will sell $6.4 billion of arms to Taiwan will harm Chinese efforts to unify peacefully with the island, the ministry said Sunday, after China suspended U.S. military exchanges and threatened unprecedented sanctions against American defense companies. If China really intends to unify peacefully with Taiwan, why are they so concerned with Taiwan buying arms? If they truly want a peaceful unification, why would the arms sale hamper the process? The answer is that China wants to unify, be it peaceful or not. The only thing stopping it from it not being peaceful is the benefits of a forced take-over aren't big enough to overcome the detriments. It's a calculated decision.

[Brainpole]

I just want to pull out this obvious incongruence/lie from your quote.



If China really intends to unify peacefully with Taiwan, why are they so concerned with Taiwan buying arms? If they truly want a peaceful unification, why would the arms sale hamper the process? The answer is that China wants to unify, be it peaceful or not. The only thing stopping it from it not being peaceful is the benefits of a forced take-over aren't big enough to overcome the detriments. It's a calculated decision.

ahoy Fishjoel, good to see you in here, me friend!

matey, i believe that somewhar down the road, China does indeed want Taiwan to merge its ships with thar fleet. of course, they'd also rather the whole process happen without bloodshed, that seems quite natural and reasonable 'o them.

Taiwan has recently been 'a makin' friendly overtures towards China, also...and i'd expect this arc to continue as them Chinese continue forward in bein' the world's other superpower, and lone economic king 'o the planet. the United States, meanwhile, shall continue its terrifyin' journey to bein' a country armed to the teeth, militarily, and a nation that lives in financial debt to China.

still, i think whats goin' on here be two fold.

a) taiwan can leverage its military strength to achieve a more favorable negotiation when the two nations join, and China probably isn't all that pleased about that.

b) china be also flexin' its newfound muscle, in realizin' that fer a number 'o reasons (chief 'o which is our own folly), they can now dictate policy to the United States. 'tis a shot across the bow, mate.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

[cl004]

ahoy Fishjoel, good to see you in here, me friend!

matey, i believe that somewhar down the road, China does indeed want Taiwan to merge its ships with thar fleet. of course, they'd also rather the whole process happen without bloodshed, that seems quite natural and reasonable 'o them.

Taiwan has recently been 'a makin' friendly overtures towards China, also...and i'd expect this arc to continue as them Chinese continue forward in bein' the world's other superpower, and lone economic king 'o the planet. the United States, meanwhile, shall continue its terrifyin' journey to bein' a country armed to the teeth, militarily, and a nation that lives in financial debt to China.

still, i think whats goin' on here be two fold.

a) taiwan can leverage its military strength to achieve a more favorable negotiation when the two nations join, and China probably isn't all that please about that.

b) china be also flexin' its newfound muscle, in realizin' that fer a number 'o reasons (chief 'o which is our own folly), they can now dictate policy to the United States. 'tis a shot across the bow, mate.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

If you and some other scallywag of a pirate were destined to join forces, peacefully in the future, would you benefit more by adding a fully equipped galley to your growing armada or a weak scurvy ridden dingy? Now if you intended to add this ship to your armada by force, if need be, you'd want them to be as weak as possible. You wouldn't want to take too much damage to your own fleet for the acquisition.

[asivisepo]

If you and some other scallywag of a pirate were destined to join forces, peacefully in the future, would you benefit more by adding a fully equipped galley to your growing armada or a weak scurvy ridden dingy? Now if you intended to add this ship to your armada by force, if need be, you'd want them to be as weak as possible. You wouldn't want to take too much damage to your own fleet for the acquisition.

*blinks at the quick reply from Fishjoel*

oh, yer right in yer observations, mate. its hard to say how exactly the unification shall take place. alot depends on the future, which be hard to see.

still, ye have to remember that Taiwan and China, despite the warm relations 'o today, be ancient foes. anythin' can happen.

like i said, some 'o this be just posturin', and the first step them Chinese be takin' in assumin' the mantle 'o world superpower.

*bows*

- MeadHallPirate

[Bigroza]

*blinks at the quick reply from Fishjoel*

oh, yer right in yer observations, mate. its hard to say how exactly the unification shall take place. alot depends on the future, which be hard to see.

still, ye have to remember that Taiwan and China, despite the warm relations 'o today, be ancient foes. anythin' can happen.

like i said, some 'o this be just posturin', and the first step them Chinese be takin' in assumin' the mantle 'o world superpower.

*bows*

- MeadHallPirate

I see, then we are in agreement that China was being dishonest and is full of hot air. I think you are right in stating that China is trying to stretch it's wings. Problem with being such a large country, like China, is they get to run into the same problems as the US does. At that size you are too global to act in a irrational manner. So basically what I'm saying is China is just barking and won't be stupid enough to try and bite.

[wepoiyub]

Yes and no. I am not sure which city or when you went, but I have seen major changes in most of the cities. Yes, there are, what we would call slums, and then there are the high rise apartments. What is interesting is the rising middle class in China. As such, things are improving. The living conditions we see today in China can be described what the living conditions in the early 20th century where running water was not available everywhere.

The main problem with the housing, at least from my perspective, is there is no resale value. Once you buy the apartment, you pretty much stay there for life. Also, China tends to build up and not out as does the US, most notaly in the SE, South, SW, and West parts of the country. It is different and as such you cannot make a comparison.

I was in Hong Kong and Beijing. The conditions ARE improving, but slowly. The village I went to was all low rise, but no bathrooms. Better housing WAS being built, but the big complaint was that when you trade up you take a huge loss. Such is life. You don't trade even here either. But they still don't have our personal conveniences, or rights. But from what I see, they are taking advantage of what they DO have and that is educational and cultural opportunities.

I think there is an unequal gradient there when we start comparing who will be the biggest loser in an economic showdown. WE would. Or to put it another way our POPULACE would be the biggest losers. There would be little change for them as far as I can see.

[Crilosajsamq]

I think there is an unequal gradient there when we start comparing who will be the biggest loser in an economic showdown. WE would. Or to put it another way our POPULACE would be the biggest losers. There would be little change for them as far as I can see.

Hey, maybe we could bring all those jobs that got outsourced back to the US again and we could produce our own products. Additionally, maybe the useless slugs that leech off of working Americans would have to get a job because there wouldn't be handouts for the anymore. Or maybe they will starve. Even if we lose, initially, in economic areas, we could still win in the long run.

[Auzuigcx]

Hey, maybe we could bring all those jobs that got outsourced back to the US again and we could produce our own products. Additionally, maybe the useless slugs that leech off of working Americans would have to get a job because there wouldn't be handouts for the anymore. Or maybe they will starve. Even if we lose, initially, in economic areas, we could still win in the long run.

That kind of talk is what divides the radicals from the true conservatives. It is not a conservative value that people would be starving in our streets and stacked like cordwood. That is a radical value.

[TCjwwhcY]

That kind of talk is what divides the radicals from the true conservatives. It is not a conservative value that people would be starving in our streets and stacked like cordwood. That is a radical value.

I don't want people to starve that actually need help. It's the able-bodied that are leeches/parasites that would, possibly, starve as their host would have died as well.

[HenriRow]

I see, then we are in agreement that China was being dishonest and is full of hot air. I think you are right in stating that China is trying to stretch it's wings. Problem with being such a large country, like China, is they get to run into the same problems as the US does. At that size you are too global to act in a irrational manner. So basically what I'm saying is China is just barking and won't be stupid enough to try and bite.

*muses*

fishjoel mate,

whether China is bein' dishonest or not be not be me point. they are engagin' in political brinksmanship, and let us be fair....our nation does the same.

regardin' the bolded part, i think yer not quite readin' china and its citizens correctly, mate. in many ways, they be wired differently from americans.
Sunshine touches on this in her missives and she's very much spot on.

the way education be viewed...the way the young view and care fer thar parents...the idear 'o frugality...the concept 'o sacrifice...

they be an entirely different peoples.

i also don't think ye shall see China takin' up the mantle 'o the "world's policeman".

*bows*

- MeadHallPirate

ps - imma thinkin' i sound like a china booster...which imma not, exactly. imma just not a china basher. thar time is comin', me friend. imma pointin' east and sayin' the sun is risin', and our country grousin' about it is not goin' to change reality. we might as well get acclimated to it.

[estuapped]

I don't want people to starve that actually need help. It's the able-bodied that are leeches/parasites that would, possibly, starve as their host would have died as well.

The able bodied are not always able minded.
Your talk is disgusting. I don't think even you believe it. If you do, I'd like to see you there sorting them out. You would be hauled off the the asylum before the first hour was up. And I say that from the perspective of tiraging sick people alone, which in and of itself can result in deciding who lives and who dies.