[drycleden]

ahoy me friends!

i seldom post much in part 'o our ports, but i was wonderin'...should the United States rescind its 6 billion in arms shipments to Taiwan. we need to remain in the good graces 'o the powerful nation 'o China, fer we need'm to keep buyin' our treasury bonds (i think that what they be called). i worry that we're bitin' the hand that feeds us by doin' anythin' that might anger our powerful friends.

i feel badly, fer the profits 'o companies like Lockheed Martin and Raytheon will be hurt if we cannot continue to export weapons to the folks we wish to, but don't ye thinks it be dangerous to arouse the ire 'o the Chinese, 'specially when we need thar financial aid more than ever?

the PRC's military modernization is overturning the cross-strait military balance of power faster than many imagined. In the latest indication of this, a RAND study released this month warns that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) air force could quickly establish dominance of the skies before an invasion, even when US forces intervene.

China's growing military strength has paradoxically led some to question whether the US should continue to fulfill the requirement of the Taiwan Relations Act and provide Taiwan with a sufficient self-defense capability. No matter what weapons the US provides, goes the thinking, Taiwan is consigned to an ever-growing military deficit in relation to the mainland.

A third factor in the new strategic environment is the rapid expansion of Sino-US relations. As the US increasingly relies on China for help on a range of global issues, the US is finding it a challenge to balance Taiwan's security with its expanding interests with the mainland. Asia Times Online :: China News, China Business News, Taiwan and Hong Kong News and Business.

i mean, with all the troubles we have, what be the chance that we'd take on the mighty Chinese in a military struggle, should they decide to invade Taiwan?

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

[illilmicy]

China sells arms to Iran, they really have no ground to stand on whining about this.

Matt

[Dkavtbek]

China sells arms to Iran, they really have no ground to stand on whining about this.

Matt

ahoy Sir Mod, mighty MattLarson!

matey, i don't see this as an issue 'o whether the are chinese bein' hypocrites or not. i was thinkin' that with our great and powerful nation bein' so reliant on China, 'tis unwise to do anythin' that we don't absolutely need to that would end up aggravatin' a world power that we're so dependent on.

imms not Melawatti, not by a long shot...but i sees China as a power that be on a swift ascent, and our fearsome country seems to be sailin' in the opposite direction. it just doesn't seem in our best interest to do anything that might rile China, as they may well have the whip hand in the comin' decade. america needs china to take a benevolent view 'o our land.

*bows*

- MeadHallPirate

[xanaxist]

We are obligated by treaty to defend Taiwan.

Why does China have such a problem with self determination?

[JewJoleSole]

We are obligated by treaty to defend Taiwan.

Why does China have such a problem with self determination?

*bows to Commodore*

the treaty itself be absurd, matey...in this day and age, it be lunacy to think that the United States would sail to the aid 'o taiwan should things come to military blows.

i can imagine what the tea party movement would think 'o the president bleedin' our country dry by confrontin' the Chinese in the open seas.

that treaty needs to be revisited, mate.

- MeadHallPirate

[toopyimport]

Why should we let the Chinese take Taiwan?

[r9tbayfC]

Why should we let the Chinese take Taiwan?

ahoy Commodore!

i have many thoughts on this topic, mate...and i'd go into'm if i had the time, but i have a gatherin' to attend. fer now, i'll answer succinctly;

because we couldn't stop'm if they did. not at cost that was acceptable, at any rate.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

[Roorseprate]

I am quite confident the US Navy could put a stop to any landing the Chinese attempted, and the Marines could easily push any Chinese that managed to get ashore back into the sea.

The assumption that such a conflict would be devastating economically ignores how our other allies, namely Japan and South Korean would react if we failed to uphold our obligations, and that the Chinese are just as dependent on our markets as we are on their labor.

The most likely outcome of such a conflict is a slightly bruised but no worst for wear Taiwan, and quick coup in China to oust those who though the invasion was a good idea, followed by the new regime apologizing profusely, pleading with us to buy their stuff. Even then, I suspect it would be a tough sell.

[HsSp82U8]

ahoy me friends!

i seldom post much in part 'o our ports, but i was wonderin'...should the United States rescind its 6 billion in arms shipments to Taiwan. we need to remain in the good graces 'o the powerful nation 'o China, fer we need'm to keep buyin' our treasury bonds (i think that what they be called). i worry that we're bitin' the hand that feeds us by doin' anythin' that might anger our powerful friends.

i feel badly, fer the profits 'o companies like Lockheed Martin and Raytheon will be hurt if we cannot continue to export weapons to the folks we wish to, but don't ye thinks it be dangerous to arouse the ire 'o the Chinese, 'specially when we need thar financial aid more than ever?


Asia Times Online :: China News, China Business News, Taiwan and Hong Kong News and Business.

i mean, with all the troubles we have, what be the chance that we'd take on the mighty Chinese in a military struggle, should they decide to invade Taiwan?

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

Well......Perhaps Israel is trying to make up for our position and then some:

The Insider - Israel secretly sells American nuclear weapons to China

We have also prevented for the moment Israeli arms sales to China.

It has been reported Israels arms sale customers are those nations that are prevented from buying U.S. Arms.

What's the use of worrying it never was worth while !!!!!! So........

[SetSnonejog]

Why should we let the Chinese take Taiwan?

For the same reason we confronted the USSR over Cuba !

[megatrendsZ]

Well......Perhaps Israel is trying to make up for our position and then some:

The Insider - Israel secretly sells American nuclear weapons to China

We have also prevented for the moment Israeli arms sales to China.

It has been reported Israels arms sale customers are those nations that are prevented from buying U.S. Arms.

What's the use of worrying it never was worth while !!!!!! So........

Got anything from a credible source?

[zooworms]

China sells arms to Iran, they really have no ground to stand on whining about this.

Matt

ahoy Sir Mod, mighty MattLarson!

matey, i don't see this as an issue 'o whether the are chinese bein' hypocrites or not. i was thinkin' that with our great and powerful nation bein' so reliant on China, 'tis unwise to do anythin' that we don't absolutely need to that would end up aggravatin' a world power that we're so dependent on.

imms not Melawatti, not by a long shot...but i sees China as a power that be on a swift ascent, and our fearsome country seems to be sailin' in the opposite direction. it just doesn't seem in our best interest to do anything that might rile China, as they may well have the whip hand in the comin' decade. america needs china to take a benevolent view 'o our land.

*bows*

- MeadHallPirate

We are obligated by treaty to defend Taiwan.

Why does China have such a problem with self determination?

*bows to Commodore*

the treaty itself be absurd, matey...in this day and age, it be lunacy to think that the United States would sail to the aid 'o taiwan should things come to military blows.

i can imagine what the tea party movement would think 'o the president bleedin' our country dry by confrontin' the Chinese in the open seas.

that treaty needs to be revisited, mate.

- MeadHallPirate

Why should we let the Chinese take Taiwan?

There is some disagreement as to whether Taiwan is or was ever a part of China.

On the other hand, the position of most Chinese reunification supporters believe the Chinese Civil War is still not concluded as no peace treaty was even signed. Therefore, the current political separation across the Taiwan strait is only temporary and a reunified China including both mainland China and Taiwan will be the result.

Until the mid-90s, the position of the Republic of China had been that it was a de jure sovereign state. "Republic of China," according to the ROC Political status of Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no debate that Iran was EVER part of the US. But if it were and we wanted it back, we would not stand on ceremony to get it any more than we stand on ceremony to take middle east oil.

China has been around 5000 years. I have no doubt that China knows how to be around another 5000. Subsidizing the US is part of that. So is making us fat and lazy, just like they made their rulers fat and lazy over decades, and centuries. They definitely have a plan. And seeing China as a minor playor on the world scene is a big mistake. Also, so is seeing them as being beneth us. They have most of the engineers of the world, all of their children take English from ages 13-17; if you speak in their presence they will understand you, but you will not understand them unless they speak your language.

Granted, they don't have all the human rights we have, but give them time. Just in the last few years they released their lawyers from government control. That in and of itself will give the people of China a footing they have never before had. Of couse WE want to kill all our lawyers because we don't see their relevance where our rights are concerned.

[crycleascentyv]

For the same reason we confronted the USSR over Cuba !

Because Taiwan is just off the tip of Florida?

[wallyfindme]

I am quite confident the US Navy could put a stop to any landing the Chinese attempted, and the Marines could easily push any Chinese that managed to get ashore back into the sea.

ahoy oh Commodore!

i hath returned to our decks me friend, with a devastatin' observation from me own father, a sea dog 'o many voyages. me father served in the Republic 'o China's army back in the day, it was called Formosa back then. he found yer conclusions errant and the language he used was rather salty, so i'll give ye a censored take.

"is this a $*%^ing joke? jets travel at over 600 miles per hour, tell your friend that the distance from the shores of china to taiwan is 100 miles. if china wanted to invade taiwan, they could have complete air control before the seventh fleet even turned around. $*#)ing china would also have the island blockaded, so tell me how the (^&#ing marines are going to even land? ask your friend how many marines it would take to hold off China, and where the $#(* is he going to get them from? they are all busy in the middle east and afghanistan. now let me watch the football game and stop asking me these %#@(ing stupid questions."

me father then more or less ignored me fer the next half an hour. he uses some colorful language, he does.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

*nods*

[ptmQqoxw]

There is some disagreement as to whether Taiwan is or was ever a part of China.



Political status of Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no debate that Iran was EVER part of the US. But if it were and we wanted it back, we would not stand on ceremony to get it any more than we stand on ceremony to take middle east oil.

China has been around 5000 years. I have no doubt that China knows how to be around another 5000. Subsidizing the US is part of that. So is making us fat and lazy, just like they made their rulers fat and lazy over decades, and centuries. They definitely have a plan. And seeing China as a minor playor on the world scene is a big mistake. Also, so is seeing them as being beneth us. They have most of the engineers of the world, all of their children take English from ages 13-17; if you speak in their presence they will understand you, but you will not understand them unless they speak your language.

Granted, they don't have all the human rights we have, but give them time. Just in the last few years they released their lawyers from government control. That in and of itself will give the people of China a footing they have never before had. Of couse WE want to kill all our lawyers because we don't see their relevance where our rights are concerned.

*hugs sunshine and wishes her a happy chinese new year*

ahoy me friend Sunshine,

i found all yer observations pretty much spot on. well said, lass.

- MeadHallPirate

[Maymayfor]

We are obligated by treaty to defend Taiwan.

Why does China have such a problem with self determination?

Because they get to do the determining in their minds.



I'm glad to disappoint them, though.

[tearidrusydet]

. . . i don't see this as an issue 'o whether the are chinese bein' hypocrites or not. i was thinkin' that with our great and powerful nation bein' so reliant on China, 'tis unwise to do anythin' that we don't absolutely need to that would end up aggravatin' a world power that we're so dependent on. . . .

Well, IMO, they're just as dependent upon us. As for the loans China has given us, as J Paul Getty once said: "If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem." Plus, they have big trade interests with the US. The US and China like to criticise each other, sometime rightfully and sometimes wrongfully, but each pretty much is dependent upon the other. If China attacks Taiwan, it will have a hell of a problem given the Taiwanese alone. Trying to invade it is one set of lumps internationally and between Taiwan, and trying to hold it if they succeed in invading it is permanent set of them. As Minister Tallyrand quipped: "You can do anything with bayonets...except sit on them." If the Taiwanese don't want Red China taking it over, all Red China will be doing is swallowing a razor blade trying to successfully conquer it.

[huntbytnkbel]

ahoy oh Commodore!

i hath returned to our decks me friend, with a devastatin' observation from me own father, a sea dog 'o many voyages. me father served in the Republic 'o China's army back in the day, it was called Formosa back then. he found yer conclusions errant and the language he used was rather salty, so i'll give ye a censored take.

"is this a $*%^ing joke? jets travel at over 600 miles per hour, tell your friend that the distance from the shores of china to taiwan is 100 miles. if china wanted to invade taiwan, they could have complete air control before the seventh fleet even turned around. $*#)ing china would also have the island blockaded, so tell me how the (^&#ing marines are going to even land? ask your friend how many marines it would take to hold off China, and where the $#(* is he going to get them from? they are all busy in the middle east and afghanistan. now let me watch the football game and stop asking me these %#@(ing stupid questions."

me father then more or less ignored me fer the next half an hour. he uses some colorful language, he does.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

*nods*

Now see I'm not going to be held responsible for you interrupting a perfectly good football game with military strategy. But I assure the Formosans would not need an onside kick.

The PRC, at this time and for the foreseeable future, do not have the sea or airlift capability to move enough troops on shore quickly enough. Its true they have the worlds largest air force, but they are not going to commit the whole thing, and what they have is obsolete and manned by pilots with a fraction of the training western pilots get. And the ROC has formidable air defenses, including Aegis class destroyers, top of the line 4th gen fighters, and an existing and growing arsenal of AA missile batteries. There's a reason China is belly aching about this, they know it negates a big chunk of any potential attack force, and if they thought they could do it and get away with it, they would have done so by now.

I am sure that the ROC can hold the fort long enough for us to get a couple of carriers and a MEU in range. Though I am certain we've got enough subs in the Strait to sink anything bigger than a fishing trawler, and its fair to say that every military installation within 500 miles of Taiwan would be reduced to scrap by bombers flying from the continental US first.

[MipRippoomamn]

There is some disagreement as to whether Taiwan is or was ever a part of China.

Perhaps. But there is no question of whether the island wants to be ruled by the mainland.

[Acciblyfluila]

ahoy oh Commodore!

i hath returned to our decks me friend, with a devastatin' observation from me own father, a sea dog 'o many voyages. me father served in the Republic 'o China's army back in the day, it was called Formosa back then. he found yer conclusions errant and the language he used was rather salty, so i'll give ye a censored take.

"is this a $*%^ing joke? jets travel at over 600 miles per hour, tell your friend that the distance from the shores of china to taiwan is 100 miles. if china wanted to invade taiwan, they could have complete air control before the seventh fleet even turned around. $*#)ing china would also have the island blockaded, so tell me how the (^&#ing marines are going to even land? ask your friend how many marines it would take to hold off China, and where the $#(* is he going to get them from? they are all busy in the middle east and afghanistan. now let me watch the football game and stop asking me these %#@(ing stupid questions."

me father then more or less ignored me fer the next half an hour. he uses some colorful language, he does.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

*nods*

Your father's observation appears to assume that a Chinese/Taiwanese conflict would occur with no warning. That seems to be a rather unlikely scenario. An actual military engagement would almost certainly be preceded by a breakdown in diplomatic relations between China and Taiwan, if not the US. If we decided to get involved in such a conflict, it wouldn't take long to reposition fighter aircraft from our bases in the Pacific, if need be, and probably to get at least one carrier group into the area. It would take China longer to load an invasion fleet and get it to Taiwan. Even if the Chinese were to gain superiority over Taiwan, do you really believe they'd be able to keep it?

Once the Chinese lose control of the air over the battleground, defense of Taiwan is pretty straightforward. China doesn't have all that many ships for amphibious operations. Taiwan has military of up to 3.8 million personnel, more than enough to hold off China's 83 amphibious warfare craft until help can arrive.

None of this really matters all that much, however, as both of our economies are dependent on each other.