[oyymoss]

I don't find it that hard to understand the mindset of the terrorist. All you need to do is imagine that the situation was reversed. Imagine a world dominated by a Muslim nation with overwhelming military might. Imagine that they installed military bases pretty much wherever they wanted, one outside of New York, a couple in the midwest and one in Florida, right across from Disneyworld. Imagine that they used their military might as a wedge to inject their culture, their values, and their religion into our daily lives.

Would this piss you off a little? Even if you are an exceptionally patient and open minded sort who would never think of doing anything violent, what about the redneck gun-nut down the street. Do you think he might get unhinged watching Muslim soldiers march around his home town like they owned the place?

The desperation behind terrorism is born of powerlessness. They're faced with an increasingly intrusive foreign influence, backed by an overwhelming military, and they feel helpless to do anything about it. It's not so hard to understand how some of them might reach a point of such despair that they'd be willing to die to strike back.

That was a very interresting post dblack.

But of course, if you by default have the oppinion that we are the absolute good guys, and everything we do is only for the benefit of everybody else, And should we by accident come to hurt somebody else but the bad guys, it is absolutely unintentially, and only for the good of the people we just hurt, then it is of course not easy to see it from that point of view.

You are speakin to a lot of deaf ears in here


Jen

[Figelac]

LOL... right. So if the tables were turned, we mild-mannered Americans would just passively accept it? give ME a break.

I never said that, what I said was, it's your "tables" that are complete and utter bullshit.

I noticed you didn't give an answer to Muslim conflicts with no Western involvement. What are those Muslims pissed about?

[N95FzmMw]

I noticed you didn't give an answer to Muslim conflicts with no Western involvement. What are those Muslims pissed about?

And where is this mythical place on the planet where the west has no involvement? In any case, I ignored your point because it has no relevance. I'm not defending Muslims in general, I'm merely making the point that their reasons for hating us aren't a great mystery.

[amannddo]

Here is an article from the BBC on the United States presence in Saudi Arabia:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | US pulls out of Saudi Arabia

Technically US troops there have been part of Operation Southern Watch, which has enforced the no-fly zone over southern Iraq set up after 1991.

But our correspondent says the US troops have become a potent symbol of Washington's role in the region, and many Saudis see them as proof of the country's subservience to America.

Saudi Arabia is home to some of Islam's holiest sites and the deployment of US forces there was seen as a historic betrayal by many Islamists, notably Osama Bin Laden.

It is one of the main reasons given by the Saudi-born dissident - blamed by Washington for the 11 September attacks - to justify violence against the United States and its allies.

But news of the US pull-out does not mean the campaign is over for Bin Laden and his followers, according to the BBC's Arab affairs analyst Magdi Abdelhadi.

Their agenda now goes beyond the boundaries of one country, he says. Their goal is to liberate all Muslim societies from foreign troops and what they see as ungodly secular rulers. From this article, there is reference to the desire to remove all foreign troops.

[soonahonsefalh]

What about conflicts around the globe where Muslims are the aggressors, and the West has absolutely no involvement? :

Cuold you get a little more specific about these conflicts, Countryboy.
Where are they ?

Your "imagine" fantasy falls flat. Even at Gitmo the terrorists are served Halal meals, and our military personnel aren't even allowed to touch the "holy koran" without surgical gloves. Gimme a freakin' break already.:

I can understand that your knowledge of what is, and what has been going on at Guantanamo is somewhat limited.
I can also find it quite excusable, as it seems the nation with the absolute largest number of newsmedia in the entire world, also seems to be the nation with the absolute fewest journalist`s.

The simple fact is, Muslims have a hard time getting along with others.

Coexist my ass.

I can inform you, that during the past year we have had about 250 student`s in our classes.
About 10 percent have been muslim`s.
They have had absolutely no problems to get along with everybode else, and in spite of your ass, they have coexisted absolutely beautifully.

There has not even been a single attempt to blow up the place. Not one.....


Jen

[Bxbhtjnr]

Can you name me anything other, than places of MUSLIM origin being bombed or targeted by America?


Jen

Yes: Russia/former Soviet Union.

The US managed to tear the country apart and nearly succeeded in destroying Russian economy. Even now, in a heat of a crisis the US (in case of terrorism in Caucasus -- Britain) continue messing up the lives of the citizens of Ukraine and Georgia by financing and controlling their governments.

This is state terrorism. Is there any wonder that such actions breed anti-US/Western moods?

[ITYfl01c]

I don't find it that hard to understand the mindset of the terrorist. All you need to do is imagine that the situation was reversed. Imagine a world dominated by a Muslim nation with overwhelming military might. Imagine that they installed military bases pretty much wherever they wanted, one outside of New York, a couple in the midwest and one in Florida, right across from Disneyworld. Imagine that they used their military might as a wedge to inject their culture, their values, and their religion into our daily lives.

Would this piss you off a little? Even if you are an exceptionally patient and open minded sort who would never think of doing anything violent, what about the redneck gun-nut down the street. Do you think he might get unhinged watching Muslim soldiers march around his home town like they owned the place?

The desperation behind terrorism is born of powerlessness. They're faced with an increasingly intrusive foreign influence, backed by an overwhelming military, and they feel helpless to do anything about it. It's not so hard to understand how some of them might reach a point of such despair that they'd be willing to die to strike back.

Well put.

[markshome23]

So as to facilitate reasoned discussion, here is a link which touches on greivances of Al Qaeda:

National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States




This indicates that the presence of American military forces in Saudi Arabia may be considered provocative.

What specific U.S. policies in the Middle East would Mr. Bin Laden be referring to?

Pheh...that is a decoy.
They attacked before we had boots there.

[uniopaypamp]

Pheh...that is a decoy.
They attacked before we had boots there.

That was specific to the 9/11 attacks and the link was the official 9/11 commission report. If you have data regarding earlier terrorist attacks and can demonstrate motive, then by all means post a link and present your data on the attacks and motives.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | US pulls out of Saudi Arabia


Ever since the 1991 Gulf war, the US has had about 5,000 troops stationed in Saudi Arabia - a figure that rose to 10,000 during the recent conflict in Iraq. The 9/11 attack was in 2001 and US troops were in Saudi Arabia in 1991.

[Buhoutsoupfap]

Provide a motive?
Am I a member of one of their groups?...no.

Their motive is clear, and somewhat irrelevant.
Anyone who thinks all they want to do is worship Ala and mind their own business is naive as they come.

They attack us...we should kill as many as possible while having as few casualties of our own as possible.

[Abaronos]

Provide a motive?
Am I a member of one of their groups?...no.

Their motive is clear, and somewhat irrelevant.
Anyone who thinks all they want to do is worship Ala and mind their own business is naive as they come.

They attack us...we should kill as many as possible while having as few casualties of our own as possible.

Provide data which demonstrates the motives of earlier attacks. Clearly, the presence of US troops on Saudi soil dating to 1991 can't be ruled out as at least a contributing factor to the 9/11 attacks in 2001.


If causes of terrorism are to be determined, then motive of terrorists is a factor in the determination of those causes.

[Corryikilelet]

They attack us....

And what are you doing in their home?

[ZXRamon]

In a word, bullshit.

What about conflicts around the globe where Muslims are the aggressors, and the West has absolutely no involvement?

Your "imagine" fantasy falls flat. Even at Gitmo the terrorists are served Halal meals, and our military personnel aren't even allowed to touch the "holy koran" without surgical gloves. Gimme a freakin' break already.

The simple fact is, Muslims have a hard time getting along with others.

Coexist my ass.

The fact that they were given Halal meals does not get the attention. That torture took place in US controlled custody, secret detention without any fair anything at all, deliberate transfer of suspects to torturing countries for exactly that reason: because they are "interrogating" a bit different...

Call it exaggerated but thats what people remember and its great ammunition for the terrorist propaganda even if they are far far worse in nearly every regard.

The way to win the "war against terror" is by being morally superior to them (ie propaganda that can make use of that) As terrorism is a dirty business they are running into a propaganda disaster in the long run if the opponent is so damn civilized and does not eat the bait they laid out.

And you know what? Jihadist terrorism has suffered already several hits in public opinion in the Muslim world, simply because its mostly Muslims who have to die for their dreams.

[Repwailia]

The big picture is that they attack us because they disagree with us and they see our influence spreading.
We believe that everybody should live in a just and democratic society, with protected human rights, and a reasonable shot at prosperity. We believe the world would be a much safer and peaceful place if everybody had these things.
The Islamic radicals disagree sharply. They believe the whole world should be under Islamic law and that they are duty bound to fight for this end. They are encouraged by our weakness.
They speak of our troops on their soil, the existence of Israel, etc, but these are only irritants they keep bringing up in order to motivate people. Their visions are much larger than that.

[Uojeyak]

The big picture is that they attack us because they disagree with us and they see our influence spreading.

The key here is: by what means does the US spread its influence!

[verybigf]

The fact that they were given Halal meals does not get the attention. That torture took place in US controlled custody, secret detention without any fair anything at all, deliberate transfer of suspects to torturing countries for exactly that reason: because they are "interrogating" a bit different...

And what kind of treatment do others get as their hands, as prisoners? Give me a break. At least we aren't cutting anyone's heads off. They have no room to talk, at all, about how we treat our prisoners. Not one single inch of room. Zero, zip, nada. There are plenty of prisoners, in Muslim countries, that would beg and pay in blood to be a prisoner of America.

[trubreTab]

We believe that everybody should live in a just and democratic society, with protected human rights, and a reasonable shot at prosperity. We believe the world would be a much safer and peaceful place if everybody had these things.
.

You can believe in whatever you want in your own home. The problems come when you not only use your proclaimed believes as a fig-leaf to disguise perpetrated by you armed robberies, but attempt to hoist your believes on those you are robbing thus adding insult to injury.

[Z1IRo4Ap]

So as to facilitate reasoned discussion, here is a link which touches on greivances of Al Qaeda:

National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States




This indicates that the presence of American military forces in Saudi Arabia may be considered provocative.

What specific U.S. policies in the Middle East would Mr. Bin Laden be referring to?

So basically they don't like us because they are racist and bigots? I'm mean, that's the only reason they could be so pissed that we are in Saudi Arabia. Simple fact is the Saudis allow us to be there, we have their permission. We aren't occupying it. This point is completely invalid.

[Zarekylin75]

You can believe in whatever you want in your own home. The problems come when you not only use your proclaimed believes as a fig-leaf to disguise perpetrated by you armed robberies, but attempt to hoist your believes on those you are robbing thus adding insult to injury.

Please show where we have robbed any country or you're just talking out of your ass.

[Chiquita]

Simple fact is the Saudis allow us to be there, we have their permission. We aren't occupying it. This point is completely invalid.

Kept elites never represent the people of their countries, they represent interests of those who pay their upkeep. Saudi elite needs the US protection, that's why you are allowed to be there.