[popillio]

This guy thinks the neocons will aim towards allowing/causing another major event and then just pushing towards even more of a dictatorship. I hope he's wrong, but all things considered, is it that far out of line of a possibility?

I think the American people have proven gullible enough that they could scare the public into giving up more rights. A lot more, if they are scared. Rove has stated that they would create "their own reality" and it appears he wasn't kidding.

One thing I think this author misses is the other thing that the attacks did beside keep Bush in power: their entire Midd East invasion was allowed due to the scare tactics from 911. That is the bigger part of all of this.

A New Pearl Harbor, anyone?


http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=508445

It looks very much like the United States of America is well on its way to becoming a dictatorship

I have always been concerned about what really happened on September 11, 2001, but I have also always thought that the attacks were the result of a combination of determined action on the part of terrorists and official incompetence. I did not really believe that they might have actually been orchestrated by our own government. Indeed, such a thought, in itself, seemed almost treasonous to me. I am a political moderate, but I am also a strong patriot. I don't believe in condoning anti-government activity in time of war unless it is warranted by fact.

However, a story appeared on Yahoo News on January 30 that has shocked me deeply. (To read it click here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/200601.../prweb339303_5

I don't want to believe that our leaders did this to us, that they are responsible for killing thousands of Americans in the interest of restoring the president's then abysmal popularity ratings and enabling them to end many of our freedoms, but a growing number of distinguished academics and scientists do think so, and that has me deeply, deeply worried.

This worry does not end with 911. There is so much wrong that it staggers the mind. In fact, it looks very much like the United States of America is well on its way to becoming a dictatorship. By that I mean that its established institutions will no longer be robust enough to protect the rights they promise its citizens.

On Monday, the story I have linked to above was published on Yahoo News. It's easy to say that the academics involved are just a bunch of liberals, but that simply isn't the case. Some are lefties, but they are mostly political moderates. They have been radicalized by what they have discovered. They are not really promoting a political agenda, but rather demanding an investigation of what increasingly seems to have been not simply official incompetence that led to mass murder, but an actual offical locomotion behind this murder.

That there was official incompetence is now generally accepted. That was even the conclusion of the 911 Commission. But this goes beyond that.

Griffin was a very convincing interview. He had done his homework. His book is carefully annotated, with every claim supported by careful documentation.

Frankly, I was appalled at what I read and heard from this man. I found it difficult to believe that he wasn't right. The thought flickered into my mind that I might live in a country run by a bunch of mass murderers.

Which I rejected. Not on rational grounds, on emotional ones. I guess my feeling is that if the light goes out in the United States, maybe mankind is a failed species.

Other media are just now reacting to the Yahoo article. They are as stunned as I am. Robert Steinback, writing in the Miami Herald, puts it very well:

"The reflexive first reaction is incredulity -- how, one asks, could anyone even contemplate, never mind actually do such a barbaric thing? But before you shut your mind, check the resumés -- these aren't Generation X geeks subsisting on potato chips and PlayStation. Then look at the case they present."

Something that now worries me terribly--in fact, keeps me awake at night--is fear that has arisen from the most recent Osama Bin Laden tape. In it, he states that there is shortly going to be another attack on the United States. He also goes on to condone a book by a liberal author critical of the Bush Administration.

This tape was immediately "validated" by the CIA. Gone was the long period of investigation and the hedging that came from CIA when George Tenet was director. Now, under Porter Goss, confirmation is immediate.

And yet, serious and competent researchers have cast doubt on the authenticity of this tape. So much so that the president has even spoken out against them.

Given what is emerging about 911, what are we to believe? The administration has reached another nadir of unpopularity, one even deeper than the one it was in before 911. However, if there is another terrorist attack at this point, it is going to be blamed, not honored with the support of a shocked nation.

So what would motivate it to orchestrate another attack, if indeed it orchestrated the first one? It knows that what few supporters it has left would abandon it if this was done. Homeland Security would be painted as another FEMA-style farce. Beyond being impeached, the president might literally be run out of town on a rail.

However, it could be that the attack will be so appalling that the administration will, quite simply, end the republic altogether and commence frank dictatorial rule.

If such an attack happens, there seems a distinct possibility that it will have been either officially inspired, actually orchestrated by a government run amok, or allowed to happen. Even if the terrorists are real and they are indeed responsible for such an attack, it wll represent a failure of government so profound that we will need the administration to resign. There will have to be a special election, or a special convention of the Electoral College to choose new leadership.

However, that's not what will happen. If there is an attack, the country will be battened down tight by the administration. It will become a dictatorship, and will remain so until the terrorists are defeated.

But they will never be defeated.

[DumnEuronoumn]

This guy thinks the neocons will aim towards allowing/causing another major event and then just pushing towards even more of a dictatorship. I hope he's wrong, but all things considered, is it that far out of line of a possibility?

I think the American people have proven gullible enough that they could scare the public into giving up more rights. A lot more, if they are scared. Rove has stated that they would create "their own reality" and it appears he wasn't kidding.

One thing I think this author misses is the other thing that the attacks did beside keep Bush in power: their entire Midd East invasion was allowed due to the scare tactics from 911. That is the bigger part of all of this.

A New Pearl Harbor, anyone?

We used to have a poster here, who claimed that right after the 2004 elections, Bush would declare himself Dictator for Life. This writing looks a lot like his old stuff.

In my opinion, this sort of thing leaves the realm of reality and becomes farcical. There will be an election in 2008, and Bush will not be running again.

Dictators, by definition, do not come with a shelf life.

There are many reasons to be critical of the Bush administration. But this sort of thing weakens the legitimate criticisms, in my view.

Matt

[atmowasia]

*snort* As if officially being a dictatorship would make any practical difference from having two identical parties in a "democracy"...

[vintsqyuid]

We used to have a poster here, who claimed that right after the 2004 elections, Bush would declare himself Dictator for Life. This writing looks a lot like his old stuff.

In my opinion, this sort of thing leaves the realm of reality and becomes farcical. There will be an election in 2008, and Bush will not be running again.

Dictators, by definition, do not come with a shelf life.

There are many reasons to be critical of the Bush administration. But this sort of thing weakens the legitimate criticisms, in my view.

Matt

I should have been more specific. Not a dictatorship as in one guy. More like a dictatorship with the neocons staying in charge. There has been talk for some time how a "government with in a government" is in charge these days. And that was not the case for most of our past.

If a new event happens, it will lead to a great decrease in our freedoms. Already we are seeing them use unconstitutional spying on us claiming it is all just to make us more safe. We have already seen them launch wars based on past events.

I think you are making assumptions you should not make if you had an open mind.

[brandiweb]

First of all, the reader is WAAAAAAY off the mark. The US did NOT orchestrate 9/11 in spite of what "academics and scientists" think. They don't have access to everything so they're speculating. The plan had been in the works since 1998 by Bin Laden and once launched it was unstoppable. Are there things that the general public doesn't know about that day? You betcha and for now, it'll stay that way for security purposes. But I know beyond a shadow of doubt that the things not made public are nothing like what these scientists are suggesting.
Is another 9/11 type event possible? Yes, but at this time, the US soil is actually pretty safe. There are other countries in danger but for now, we're okay.

[Mearticbaibre]

First of all, the reader is WAAAAAAY off the mark. The US did NOT orchestrate 9/11 in spite of what "academics and scientists" think. They don't have access to everything so they're speculating. The plan had been in the works since 1998 by Bin Laden and once launched it was unstoppable. Are there things that the general public doesn't know about that day? You betcha and for now, it'll stay that way for security purposes. But I know beyond a shadow of doubt that the things not made public are nothing like what these scientists are suggesting.
Is another 9/11 type event possible? Yes, but at this time, the US soil is actually pretty safe. There are other countries in danger but for now, we're okay.

We aren't even safe from other Americans, if you can call them such. Project Northwoods is an example of that, and that is something we KNOW about.

The fairy tale of bin Laden plotting all that was 911 out of a cave is no more believable than Santa Clause. Pilots who couldn't even pass 101 of flying a single prop Piper supposedly piloted a massive 757 on manuvers that witnesses watching radar said only a fighter jet could make.

Only one video of all 19 of any of the terrorist at the airport?

Atta oddly left his manual of "how to fly a plane" in his car at the airport.

The flight "brought down" over PA leaving articles from the plane on a 20 mile stretch and we are to believe it was slammed into the ground, with no missile or explosion previous to its fall? Real believeable.

PNAC said it needed a new Pearl Harbor, and magically they got it.

And people like you just stay completely unaware

[LindaSmithIV]

First of all, the reader is WAAAAAAY off the mark. The US did NOT orchestrate 9/11 in spite of what "academics and scientists" think. They don't have access to everything so they're speculating. The plan had been in the works since 1998 by Bin Laden and once launched it was unstoppable. Are there things that the general public doesn't know about that day? You betcha and for now, it'll stay that way for security purposes. But I know beyond a shadow of doubt that the things not made public are nothing like what these scientists are suggesting.
Is another 9/11 type event possible? Yes, but at this time, the US soil is actually pretty safe. There are other countries in danger but for now, we're okay.

You're showing yourself to be a true believer here, Mrs. M.

[aaaaaaaabbbby]

First of all, the reader is WAAAAAAY off the mark. The US did NOT orchestrate 9/11 in spite of what "academics and scientists" think. They don't have access to everything so they're speculating. The plan had been in the works since 1998 by Bin Laden and once launched it was unstoppable. Are there things that the general public doesn't know about that day? You betcha and for now, it'll stay that way for security purposes. But I know beyond a shadow of doubt that the things not made public are nothing like what these scientists are suggesting.
Is another 9/11 type event possible? Yes, but at this time, the US soil is actually pretty safe. There are other countries in danger but for now, we're okay.

On this point, I am admittedly doubtful about the reports regarding the towers collapsing. There are many many little red flags which have cropped up regarding the matter. I don't think we have been told the whole story, But I don't think the US instigated it. However, I see two other possibilities.

1. That the US Gov knew about the plan, and simply helped it long, AS being expedient to the long term aims of the administration, and

2. That it was either instigated, or helped along by Israel, (as has also been stringly suggested. (Note the fact (at least reported as such)that Isrealis were strangely absent when it happened.

[MIBgirlsXXL]

We aren't even safe from other Americans, if you can call them such. Project Northwoods is an example of that, and that is something we KNOW about.

The fairy tale of bin Laden plotting all that was 911 out of a cave is no more believable than Santa Clause. Pilots who couldn't even pass 101 of flying a single prop Piper supposedly piloted a massive 757 on manuvers that witnesses watching radar said only a fighter jet could make.

Only one video of all 19 of any of the terrorist at the airport?

Atta oddly left his manual of "how to fly a plane" in his car at the airport.

The flight "brought down" over PA leaving articles from the plane on a 20 mile stretch and we are to believe it was slammed into the ground, with no missile or explosion previous to its fall? Real believeable.

PNAC said it needed a new Pearl Harbor, and magically they got it.

And people like you just stay completely unaware

The fact that you think Bin Laden was in a cave all those years shows that you're naive.
Yes, it was terrorists that brought the planes down, regardless of your doubts.
I'll say no more on the plane that crashed in PA except that the general public hasn't been told the whole story yet.

[pBiRXp8u]

On this point, I am admittedly doubtful about the reports regarding the towers collapsing. There are many many little red flags which have cropped up regarding the matter. I don't think we have been told the whole story, But I don't think the US instigated it. However, I see two other possibilities.

1. That the US Gov knew about the plan, and simply helped it long, AS being expedient to the long term aims of the administration, and

2. That it was either instigated, or helped along by Israel, (as has also been stringly suggested. (Note the fact (at least reported as such)that Isrealis were strangely absent when it happened.

No, the US Gov didn't help it along nor was Israel involved.

[ThekvandoVideo]

The fairy tale of bin Laden plotting all that was 911 out of a cave is no more believable than Santa Clause.

Bin Laden was not on the run until after 9/11. He had the support of at least one government.

Pilots who couldn't even pass 101 of flying a single prop Piper supposedly piloted a massive 757 on manuvers that witnesses watching radar said only a fighter jet could make.

Anyone can fly an airliner. Keep your speed up and don't stall, and you'll generally be fine. If passenger comfort isn't a concern those large airplanes can be quite agile. Learn how to use the GPS and you can navigate. Landing is where things get tricky.

Atta oddly left his manual of "how to fly a plane" in his car at the airport.

See above. Landing and logistics are the hard part of flying.

The flight "brought down" over PA leaving articles from the plane on a 20 mile stretch and we are to believe it was slammed into the ground, with no missile or explosion previous to its fall? Real believeable.

I think it quite likely that our planes shot that plane down over PA. I always wondered why it crashed if the passengers where able to rise up against the terrorists. It doesn't seem like the terrorists would have ditched it unless there was no hope of controlling the passengers, and if that were the case why wouldn't the passengers be able to get the few remaining terrorists away from the yoke? Just speculation on my part, however. Maybe the terrists ditched just out of spite.

[Espacamlisa]

The fairy tale of bin Laden plotting all that was 911 out of a cave is no more believable than Santa Clause. Pilots who couldn't even pass 101 of flying a single prop Piper supposedly piloted a massive 757 on manuvers that witnesses watching radar said only a fighter jet could make.

So you think the videos of the airliner striking the second tower aren't real?

Matt

[BoboStin]

I think it quite likely that our planes shot that plane down over PA. I always wondered why it crashed if the passengers where able to rise up against the terrorists. It doesn't seem like the terrorists would have ditched it unless there was no hope of controlling the passengers, and if that were the case why wouldn't the passengers be able to get the few remaining terrorists away from the yoke? Just speculation on my part, however. Maybe the terrists ditched just out of spite.

The flight data recorder shows the aircraft being violently manuvered as the passengers attempted to gain access to the cockpit. When the terrorists decide the passengers are about to get in, they crash it.

Parts of the transcripts are in the 9/11 commission report.

Matt

[prearpaccew]

Anyone can fly an airliner. Keep your speed up and don't stall, and you'll generally be fine. If passenger comfort isn't a concern those large airplanes can be quite agile. Learn how to use the GPS and you can navigate. Landing is where things get tricky.

The first public flight of the Dash 80 (later known as the Boeing 707), the test pilot performed a barrel roll for the crowd.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

Matt

[Plaumpholavup]

The flight data recorder shows the aircraft being violently manuvered as the passengers attempted to gain access to the cockpit. When the terrorists decide the passengers are about to get in, they crash it.

Parts of the transcripts are in the 9/11 commission report.

Matt

Noted. I remember hearing this now.

[CGH1KZzy]

No, the US Gov didn't help it along nor was Israel involved.

And you know this how? B/c that is what Fox News and BushCo told you?

[Dokescoonse]

And you know this how? B/c that is what Fox News and BushCo told you?

No, I didn't hear it from either of those sources but I do have friends in the loop.
Oh, and I'm not asking you to believe me, I'm just stating something I know but am unable to provide a source.

[Poothevokprot]

On this point, I am admittedly doubtful about the reports regarding the towers collapsing. There are many many little red flags which have cropped up regarding the matter. I don't think we have been told the whole story, But I don't think the US instigated it. However, I see two other possibilities.

1. That the US Gov knew about the plan, and simply helped it long, AS being expedient to the long term aims of the administration, and

2. That it was either instigated, or helped along by Israel, (as has also been stringly suggested. (Note the fact (at least reported as such)that Isrealis were strangely absent when it happened.

That and the fact that there were those Israelis on top of the building, video taping and celebrating as the towers were attacked. Of course, they were whisked away in secrecy. It happened

[Shiplyopidomi]

No, I didn't hear it from either of those sources but I do have friends in the loop.
Oh, and I'm not asking you to believe me, I'm just stating something I know but am unable to provide a source.

How can you know that a given thing didn't happen? All you can know is that this "loop" you and your friends are part of was not involved... and you have only their word for that...

Not that I believe that the US administration (or the Israelis or anyone else) would orchestrate such a thing... the risks of getting caught would be far too high, nobody would be that stupid.

[Andoror]

How can you know that a given thing didn't happen? All you can know is that this "loop" you and your friends are part of was not involved... and you have only their word for that...

Not that I believe that the US administration (or the Israelis or anyone else) would orchestrate such a thing... the risks of getting caught would be far too high, nobody would be that stupid.

As I said, no one has to believe me, I really don't care. I know what I know and it didn't come from the bottom.