[tretcheenia]

This makes me very sad.

Air France Flight 447, an Airbus A330, left Rio on Sunday at 7 p.m. local time (2200 GMT, 6 p.m. EDT) with 216 passengers and 12 crew members on board, company spokeswoman Brigitte Barrand.

About four hours later, the plane sent an automatic signal indicating electrical problems while going through strong turbulence, Air France said.

The plane "crossed through a thunderous zone with strong turbulence" at 0200 GMT Monday (10 p.m. EDT Sunday). An automatic message was received fourteen minutes later "signaling electrical circuit malfunction."

Full story here

All are presumed dead.

[valensds]

What do you think?

How about more safety.

Years ago I met a man who drove a space buggy on the moon 38 years ago (and some 7 years before Bond did it in Moonraker) and came back in one piece - why cant we get across the ocean in one piece?

Compulsory wearing of seatbelts was an unthinkable inconvenience only 40 or so years ago. Look at car safety now.

Or should we just throw our arms up in the air, settle back in front of the telly to eat a poie and drink beer and watch the Man United match?

Take a look in a morgue at accident victims before you start posting your nonsense here.

[Gypejeva]

...Take a look in a morgue at accident victims before you start posting your nonsense here.

Stick with attacking ideas - not forum members. The points you made were undermined by this sidebar.

[joanasevilyboaz]

French plane lost in ocean storm
From BBC



The two airports involved have been caring for relatives and friends of those aboard the missing plane

An Air France plane carrying 228 people from Brazil to France has vanished over the Atlantic after flying into turbulence, airline officials say.

The Airbus sent an automatic message at 0214 GMT, four hours after leaving Rio de Janeiro, reporting a short circuit. It may have been damaged by lightning.

It was well over the ocean when it was lost, making Brazilian and French search planes' task more difficult.

France's president said the chances of finding survivors were "very small".

Aeroplanes get hit by lightning on quite a routine basis without generally any problems occurring at all

David Gleave

Aviation Safety Investigations

Passenger nationalities revealed

Five Britons on lost French plane

"It is a catastrophe the likes of which Air France has never seen," Nicolas Sarkozy said after meeting relatives and friends of passengers at a crisis centre at Charles de Gaulle airport.

Earlier, Air France chief executive Pierre-Henri Gourgeon told reporters: "We are without a doubt faced with an air disaster."

He added: "The entire company is thinking of the families and shares their pain."
Flight AF 447 left Rio at 1900 local time (2200 GMT) on Sunday. It had 216 passengers and 12 crew on board, including three pilots. The passengers included one infant, seven
children, 82 women and 126 men.

Air France confirmed that there had been 61 French and 58 Brazilians on board.

Among the other passengers were 26 Germans, nine Chinese, nine Italians, six Swiss, five Britons, five Lebanese, four Hungarians, three Irish, three Norwegians and three Slovaks.

Lightning theory doubts

The Airbus 330-200 had been expected to arrive in Paris at 1110 local time (0910 GMT).

Tom Symonds, BBC News transport correspondent

The Airbus A330 airliner is likely to have begun its journey tracking the coast of Brazil northwards before striking out across the Atlantic. A few hundred miles from the shore, radar coverage peters out - from there on, crews use high frequency radio to report their position.

The Brazilian Air Force says the plane left radar screens near the islands of Fernando de Noronha, 230 miles from the coast. The firmest clue to its fate comes from the data message sent via a satellite network at 0214 GMT reporting electrical and pressurisation problems. This suggests whatever happened, happened before the crew could put out a mayday radio call. It was likely a sudden and catastrophic emergency. Even a double engine failure at cruising altitude would normally give the crew around half an hour's gliding time.
Air France says the plane may have been struck by lightning - the cause of around a dozen major air crashes in the last 50 years - but it rarely results in tragedy. More likely lightning damaged electrical systems, possibly leading indirectly to the plane's ditching.

Although passengers survived a landing on the Hudson River in New York in January - it is rarely successful, especially in the middle of an ocean the size of the Atlantic.

It made its last radio contact with Brazilian air traffic controllers at 0133 GMT (2233
Brazilian time) when it was 565km (360m) off Brazil's north-eastern coast, Brazil's air force said.

The crew said they were planning to enter Senegalese airspace at 0220 GMT and that the plane was flying normally at an altitude of 10,670m (35,000ft).

At about 0200 GMT, the captain reported entering heavy turbulence caused by Atlantic storms, French media report.

At 0220, when Brazilian air traffic controllers saw the plane had not made its required radio call from Senegalese airspace, air traffic control in the Senegalese capital was contacted.

At 0530 GMT, Brazil's air force launched a search-and-rescue mission, sending out a coast guard patrol plane and a specialised air force rescue aircraft.

France is despatching three search planes based in Dakar, Senegal, and has asked the US to help with satellite technology.

"The plane might have been struck by lightning - it's a possibility," Francois Brousse, head of communications at Air France, told reporters in Paris.

David Gleave, from Aviation Safety Investigations, told the BBC that planes were routinely struck by lightning, and the cause of the crash remained a mystery.

Missing man Arthur Coakley’s wife, Patricia, and his business partner Ken Pearce

"Aeroplanes get hit by lightning on quite a routine basis without generally any problems occurring at all," he told BBC Radio Five Live.

"Whether it's related to this electrical storm and the electrical failure on the aeroplane, or whether it's another reason, we have to find the aeroplane first."

France's minister responsible for transportation, Jean-Louis Borloo, ruled out hijacking as a cause of the plane's loss.

'No information'

Mr Sarkozy said he had met "a mother who lost her son, a fiance who lost her future husband".

TIMELINE

Flight AF 447 left Rio at 1900 local time (2200 GMT) on Sunday
Airbus A330-200 carrying 216 passengers and at least 12 crew
Contact lost 0130 GMT
Missed scheduled landing at 1110 local time (0910 GMT) in Paris

"I told them the truth," he said afterwards. "The prospects of finding survivors are very small."

Finding the plane would be "very difficult" because the search zone was "immense", he added.

About 20 relatives of passengers on board the flight arrived at Rio's Jobim international airport on Monday morning seeking information.

Bernardo Souza, who said his brother and sister-in-law were on the flight, complained he had received no details from Air France.

"I had to come to the airport but when I arrived I just found an empty counter," he was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.

Air France has opened a telephone hotline for friends and relatives of people on the plane - 00 33 157021055 for callers outside France and 0800 800812 for inside France.

This is the first major incident in Brazilian air space since a Tam flight crashed in Sao Paulo in July 2007 killing 199 people.

[casinoboneerer]

Stick with attacking ideas - not forum members. The points you made were undermined by this sidebar.

It was offensive nonsense, and insensitive to what has happened.

I believe in the dignity of all people, as do the NTSB, and just because air safety is excellent doesnt mean that it should be pushed aside because somehow "near enough is good enough", it isnt.

Its a massive human tragedy, something I would have thought any adult who has flown could understand.

[Zvssxstw]

Air travel is already the safest form of travel, what do you want exactly?

You've said enough.

[hHwJ229h]

My off topic posts have been deleted.

[viawbambutt]

What do you think?

How about more safety.

Years ago I met a man who drove a space buggy on the moon 38 years ago (and some 7 years before Bond did it in Moonraker) and came back in one piece - why cant we get across the ocean in one piece?

Compulsory wearing of seatbelts was an unthinkable inconvenience only 40 or so years ago. Look at car safety now.

Or should we just throw our arms up in the air, settle back in front of the telly to eat a poie and drink beer and watch the Man United match?

Take a look in a morgue at accident victims before you start posting your nonsense here.

G,
Nothing is perfect. We need to know why the plane went down before marching on Airbus headquarters with torches and pitchforks.

[ovenco]

Space travel is sooo safe!
No one EVER gets killed.

[dianakroshXX]

I read from the news a rich American has paid more than £12m to join Russian astronauts on a trip into space. If I have that kind of money I probably would do the same. And I believe space travel will soon became
routine and inexpensive.

[Jxmwzgpv]

Eventually, but not soon.

[sadgpokx]

Yes,not soon. And I also think only if I have £120m then I'll consider to spend £12m on space travel OR I have 3 months left to live

[Spalax]

It is early days yet, and they have to dive for the wreckage, but from what I have read to date it sounds like it was a structural failure, or electrical failure and decompression. That could be due to a third party event eg terror or something else. Or it could have been pilot error.

The Boeing v Airbus internet wars are in full swing again, and it is interesting. FBW (in the title to the thread means FLY BY WIRE) as opposed to fly by cable, and most of the Boeings are the latter and almost all of the new Airbuses are FBW. With FBC, the pilots can countermand the plane's flight control computers and fly the plane outside of the envelope if they have to. With FBW, that is not possible.

I read this comment on a forum today

The advantage of the Airbus fly by wire is that you´ll hit the mountain exactly on the numbers spot on whereas in a Boeing you´ll actually fly the aircraft outside it´s intended flight envelope but miss the mountain..

I am not sure if that had anything to do with the accident (no one is yet), but I personally feel better in an aircraft where the pilot can actually fly the plane.

[Sheelldaw]

02:10Z A/P disengaged and a fault with one of the FBY computers.
02:11Z - 02:13 Faults in the NAV system was reported in a flurry of messages. Then a fault reported in a system that provides instrument readings (IRU?)
02:14Z Fault reported in vertical cabin speed giving rise to decompression of cabin.

Most recent release of the ACARS transmissions.

Will AF do anything to keep people flying? Like saying that it was lightning/wasnt terrorism. Where did they get that from?

[OlgaBorovikovva]

:WARNING: THIS IS PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART.....

One POSSIBILITY that comes to mind, is a complete failure of the forward cargo door latching system.
Similar to THIS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish...nes_Flight_981

[assonomaf]

At this point, anything is possible. Pilot error. Hardware failure. Weather. It could have been hit be falling space debris for all we know...

Hopefully the black box and significant portions of the wreckage are found so if there is a problem with that series of planes, it can be corrected...

One addition - for a very good analysis of the weather (and some informed commentary), check out:
http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

[chelviweeme]

I posted the latest theory about the cause which comes in detail from a Brazilian newspaper. It's here at the Sleep New York "Airport Watch" Forum.

On some forums people are even concluding this could have been a trial run for Bojinka Part II. I sure hope not.

[WrigleyMike]

Source: CNN

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (CNN) -- The Brazilian air force said Thursday night that debris picked up near where officials believe Air France Flight 447 crashed Monday into the Atlantic Ocean was not from the plane.

The news came after the Brazilian navy began retrieving debris Thursday that it believed was wreckage from the flight, which disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean.

On Wednesday, searchers recovered two debris fields and had identified the wreckage, including an airplane seat and an orange float as coming from Flight 447. Officials now say that none of the debris recovered is from the missing plane.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/04/plane.cras...

[vNQmO2BF]

My theory is the Airbus AP went crazy after the TAT probes iced up. The 320s have all glass cockpits, ie computer screen like crystal displays, and not a lot of backup instruments, which may have also been a problem, Im not sure. But if you cant see any indicators you cant fly the airplane.

I'll fly a 4 engine 747 Boeing with fly by cable and a steel tail anyday, thank you Airbus.

BTW, anything less than a full investigation by Airbus and AF is going to be met with skepticism, because everyone knows just how much the A380 contracts mean for Airbus.

I read this on the PPRune Forums today

Investigators are pursuing a theory that excessive air speed -- potentially spurred by ice building up on electronic airspeed sensors -- contributed to the ocean crash of an Air France Airbus A330 amid heavy storms Monday, according to two industry officials familiar with the details.

The developments helped lead Airbus late Thursday to remind all airlines to follow certain backup procedures any time that pilots suspect their airspeed indicators are malfunctioning, according to the officials.

The Airbus announcement doesn't provide new details of the crash of Air France Flight 447. But it reflects the investigators' suspicion that the sensors -- also implicated in at least two other fatal airline crashes and numerous other incidents -- were involved, possibly as the first stage of a series of electrical and mechanical malfunctions aboard the jetliner. The reminder advises pilots to use backup devices including GPS systems to check their airspeed if readings from the primary indicators seem awry.

Investigators believe that the so-called pitot tubes may have iced up as the Air France plane with 228 people on board flew through a ferocious thunderstorm that could have included hail and violent updrafts, the two industry officials said.

Industry officials stressed it is too early to draw definitive conclusions from the scant data available, and theories of the crash could change in coming days. Investigators, for example, haven't ruled out the possibility of a fire or other electrical problems that could have led to the emergency. They also don't know what other actions the crew may have taken during roughly four minutes during which the plane apparently was going through a major storm.

The pitot devices have backup systems and are supposed to be heated to avoid icing. But tropical thunderstorms that develop in the area the plane was flying are full of ice at high altitudes, and air temperature at the plane's altitude is well below zero. A theory is that ice from the storm built up quickly on the tubes and could have led to the malfunction whether or not the heat was working properly.

If the tubes iced up, the pilots could have quickly seen sharp and rapid drops in their airspeed indicators, according to industry officials.

At this point, according to people familiar with the details, an international team of crash investigators as well as safety experts at Airbus are focused on a theory that malfunctioning airspeed indicators touched off a series of events that apparently made some flight controls, onboard computers and electrical systems go haywire.

According to people familiar with the thinking of the investigators, the potentially faulty readings could have prompted the crew of the Air France flight to mistakenly boost thrust from the plane's engines and increase speed as they went through what may have been extreme turbulence. As a result, the pilots may inadvertently have subjected the plane to increased structural stress.

It isn't known why other planes flying through such storms haven't suffered from such severe problems, but airline crashes often result from a chain of unusual events, not just a single trigger. Brazilian Air Force officials say three other jetliners flew in the general region around the same time; other airlines have reported no abnormalities in their planes' flights.

Investigators also are struggling to understand another big mystery: how the aircraft, equipped with its own weather-scanning radar, ended up engulfed in what is believed to be such extreme weather. The storm's exact force remains unclear, because the mid-Atlantic region isn't covered by precise ground-based weather radar.

Problems with pitot tubes have been implicated in many air accidents, and ice blockage wouldn't be unprecedented in commercial aviation.

Pitot-tube icing was suspected in the October 1997 crash of an Austral Lineas Aereas DC-9 in Uruguay that killed all 74 people onboard. Flight-data recorder readings showed anomalous airspeed readings and that the crew had adjusted settings in ways suggesting they thought they were flying much slower than the plane, built by McDonnell Douglas, was actually moving. Investigators concluded those settings caused the pilots to lose control of the plane, which plunged into swamps, according to the Aviation Safety Network, a crash database.

A Continental Airlines MD-82, also built by McDonnell-Douglas, skidded off the runway at New York's La Guardia Airport in March 1994 after the crew aborted their takeoff due to strange airspeed readings. Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board later found the crew had failed to comply with checklist procedures to activate the pitot tub- heating system, allowing them to get clogged with ice or snow. Nobody was killed in the incident.

The NTSB cited similar issues with incidents during two flights of Boeing 717 jetliners in 2002 and 2005. Nobody was killed in those events, in which the planes encountered problems when the pitot tube heating system were temporarily inactive for reasons that were never determined.

In February 1996, a Boeing 757 crashed shortly after takeoff from the Dominican Republic, killing all 189 people onboard. Flight-data and cockpit recordings showed the crew got confused by conflicting speed readings and stalled the plane, which plunged into the ocean, according to Aviation Safety Network.

Investigators later concluded that wasps may have nested in the pitot tubes as the plane, operated by Turkish carrier Birgenair, sat grounded for several days. The tubes are supposed to be kept covered when a plane is parked, but a witness recalled seeing them exposed.

Wasp-nesting in pitot tubes was again cited in a March 2006 incident, where the crew of a Qantas Airways Ltd. Airbus A330 slammed on the brakes during takeoff from Brisbane, Australia. Nobody was injured, according to the Australian Transport Safety Board. Airbus is a unit of European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co.

The Air France jetliner was equipped with its own radar system, which normally suffices for letting pilots navigate through bad weather. But it doesn't always detect trouble, specialists say, or accurately depict the worst areas of turbulence. The signals can get absorbed by heavy rain or end up showing ground clutter, for example, preventing pilots from getting a clear picture of conditions in front of them.

[XGoFivk7]

Whats more - the oil slick they found? Not from the plane. So all they have are the automated maintenance messages.