[everlastinge]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/01...est=latestnews

A New York City cafe cut its staff by nearly 25 percent last week because of lost business due to the ongoing Occupy Wall Street protests, the cafe's owner told FoxNews.com.

Marc Epstein, owner of the Milk Street Cafe at 40 Wall Street in lower Manhattan, said he had to cut 21 of the 97 members of his staff on Thursday and Friday after seeing sales plummet by 30 percent in the six weeks since the protests began. He's also been forced to slash the restaurant operating hours, moving up his closing time from 9 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. Mondays through Thursdays.

The incessant noise and police activity aside, Epstein said the biggest obstacle to his business has been the ubiquitous New York police barricades surrounding Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan.

Well I hope it's worth it for the protesters. I'd be pissed if I was that store owner. It could be both the protesters and police - barricades wouldn't be up though if there were no protests.

So what will the protesters say or do about those people who just lost their jobs?

[Grieryaliny]

Good job hippies! Looks like your affecting more than just the 1%.

[Franchise]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/01...est=latestnews

A New York City cafe cut its staff by nearly 25 percent last week because of lost business due to the ongoing Occupy Wall Street protests, the cafe's owner told FoxNews.com.

Marc Epstein, owner of the Milk Street Cafe at 40 Wall Street in lower Manhattan, said he had to cut 21 of the 97 members of his staff on Thursday and Friday after seeing sales plummet by 30 percent in the six weeks since the protests began. He's also been forced to slash the restaurant operating hours, moving up his closing time from 9 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. Mondays through Thursdays.

The incessant noise and police activity aside, Epstein said the biggest obstacle to his business has been the ubiquitous New York police barricades surrounding Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan.

Well I hope it's worth it for the protesters. I'd be pissed if I was that store owner. It could be both the protesters and police - barricades wouldn't be up though if there were no protests.

So what will the protesters say or do about those people who just lost their jobs?

Well, there is a few things not spoken of in this article.

For example, how long has he ben in business? It is very well known in NYC that many resturants that open on a business surge tend to hire too many persons during their early years because they don't plan far enough ahead to take advantage of the ups and downs of the market. For example, how well did he do during the start of the crisis in 2007-2008?

Why does he have his resturant in a building owned by Donald Trump? Yes, "The Donald" is the Landlord of 40 Wall Street, and he is known for never having cheap rents in any of his buildings.

Did the Resturant establish the evening hours in hopes of getting some of the business of the Yuppies who have been moving into the Condos that have been filling up the rennovated ex-Office buildings and new Condo buildings that have proliferated in the area over the last Ten years? If so, then he cannot complain because what has happened is that the jobs lost during the closing of Bear Sterns et. al., have not come back, and won't for a long time to come, and the traditional closing time in the area has always been 6 PM for regular resturants, and 4 PM for the take-out joints. Staying open until 9 PM was speculation on his part, and poorly researched speculation at that.

The Wall Street area has NEVER been a quiet zone, especially when the Tourists have shown up in droves. The Protests haven't put a dent in the Tourists. As a matter of fact their numbers have increased [even though the normal tourist season has ended because of the weather] because of their desire to see the protest.

In any event, Fall is here, and the relative number of tourists will continue to decline into Winter, and the number of customers for this resturant has subsided to normal Fall/Winter numbers. His time to worry will be next Spring, when the number of customers can be expected to increase due to increased Tourism. If his patronage doesn't increase at that time, THEN he will have a good point.

[GeraldCortis]

Well, there is a few things not spoken of in this article.

For example, how long has he ben in business? It is very well known in NYC that many resturants that open on a business surge tend to hire too many persons during their early years because they don't plan far enough ahead to take advantage of the ups and downs of the market. For example, how well did he do during the start of the crisis in 2007-2008?

Why does he have his resturant in a building owned by Donald Trump? Yes, "The Donald" is the Landlord of 40 Wall Street, and he is known for never having cheap rents in any of his buildings.

Did the Resturant establish the evening hours in hopes of getting some of the business of the Yuppies who have been moving into the Condos that have been filling up the rennovated ex-Office buildings and new Condo buildings that have proliferated in the area over the last Ten years? If so, then he cannot complain because what has happened is that the jobs lost during the closing of Bear Sterns et. al., have not come back, and won't for a long time to come, and the traditional closing time in the area has always been 6 PM for regular resturants, and 4 PM for the take-out joints. Staying open until 9 PM was speculation on his part, and poorly researched speculation at that.

The Wall Street area has NEVER been a quiet zone, especially when the Tourists have shown up in droves. The Protests haven't put a dent in the Tourists. As a matter of fact their numbers have increased [even though the normal tourist season has ended because of the weather] because of their desire to see the protest.

In any event, Fall is here, and the relative number of tourists will continue to decline into Winter, and the number of customers for this resturant has subsided to normal Fall/Winter numbers. His time to worry will be next Spring, when the number of customers can be expected to increase due to increased Tourism. If his patronage doesn't increase at that time, THEN he will have a good point.

Did you READ the article.

“after seeing sales plummet by 30 percent in the six weeks since the protests began.”

“So, people who have to walk down Wall Street don't walk down Wall Street. It used to be a beautiful pedestrian mall, and now it's not -- it's ugly”

“The eatery, which opened in June, is a $4 million venture and is an expansion of the Boston restaurant he and his wife opened decades earlier.”

“Trump, who owns a 68-story skyscraper near the site, told FoxNews.com that Epstein is not the only business owner taking a severe hit since the protests began.”

"It's a very sad situation," Trump told FoxNews.com by phone. "They opened up to rave reviews and now because of Occupy Wall Street, nobody's going down there. People are shunning the area; it's a very big problem."

It has turned into a tourist attraction although it would seem that only food vendors in carts and trucks (who can come and go from the area) are making any money from the tourist attraction.

It seems a bit specious to cite the decline in local businesses as the raison d'être (so to speak) for why the OWS protests themselves are bad but........

Having said that, there is no doubt (to a reasonable person) that the decline in the diner's business (and in others in the areas) is a DIRECT result of the OWS. To say otherwise is ludicrous and an obvious attempt to minimize collateral fallout from the protests. An equally specious argument.

[cindygirl]

Did you READ the article.

“after seeing sales plummet by 30 percent in the six weeks since the protests began.”

“So, people who have to walk down Wall Street don't walk down Wall Street. It used to be a beautiful pedestrian mall, and now it's not -- it's ugly”

“The eatery, which opened in June, is a $4 million venture and is an expansion of the Boston restaurant he and his wife opened decades earlier.”

“Trump, who owns a 68-story skyscraper near the site, told FoxNews.com that Epstein is not the only business owner taking a severe hit since the protests began.”

"It's a very sad situation," Trump told FoxNews.com by phone. "They opened up to rave reviews and now because of Occupy Wall Street, nobody's going down there. People are shunning the area; it's a very big problem."

It has turned into a tourist attraction although it would seem that only food vendors in carts and trucks (who can come and go from the area) are making any money from the tourist attraction.

It seems a bit specious to cite the decline in local businesses as the raison d'être (so to speak) for why the OWS protests themselves are bad but........

Having said that, there is no doubt (to a reasonable person) that the decline in the diner's business (and in others in the areas) is a DIRECT result of the OWS. To say otherwise is ludicrous and an obvious attempt to minimize collateral fallout from the protests. An equally specious argument.

Yes, I did read it, but I discounted it due to my experience working in the area. My Civilian job was as a Station Agent with New York's MTA, and I spent a lot of time working the area's Subway Stations, and also at the MTA's Headquarters down at #2 Broadway as a Union Rep in Labor-Management Disciplinary and Contract Hearings.

In the first place, such a decline in patronage in the Fall is normal, and it won't reverse until Spring when the Tourists start to return. I've patronized lots of the Resturants and Take Outs in the area, and the period from the Fall through the Spring is the best time to find a seat in any of them due to low patronage. Further, the First Year of service is the hardest one for any Resturant in NYC. 90% of them close their doors during the First Year, and if they can survive the first year they will be judged a success, but things will still remain dicey until they reach the Five year mark. Since the owner did the correct - and normal - thing, which is to reduce his overhead to meet the Seasonal requirements, I would suggest that if he continues to hunker down until Spring he will rebound nicely, although being in "The Donald's" building won't get him many of the Middle Class workers in the neighborhood, and he certainly won't get many of the Residents, either.

Again, having worked in the area for a lot of years, I know how to recognize Hyperbole when I read it, and I am happy to note that "The Donald" himself admitted to being the source of the whining. BTW, the blocks on Wall Street between Broadway and William Street, and Broad Street between Wall Street and Beaver Street, are anything but a "beautiful pedestrian mall .. ."

As to the other businesses in the area having a downturn, again, that is normal for the time of year, and the fact that the area has changed much from a strong business neighborhood to a mixed Business and Yuppie Residential neighborhood hasn't helped the local small businesses either. Finally, it doesn't help that the streets act like wind tunnels, lowering the area temperature a sizeable number of degrees. In Spring and Summer, that is a good thing since it reduces the sizzle, but - in the Fall and Winter - people need to dress warmly when they walk the streets, and Tourists stay away as a result.

"The Donald" needs to get someone else to do his whining for him if he really wants people to take what he says seriously.

[Zpxbawtz]

“after seeing sales plummet by 30 percent in the six weeks since the protests began.” It was raining when my mother died... therefore the rain killed my mother.

[Mr Andrews]

I repeat...........

"Having said that, there is no doubt (to a reasonable person) that the decline in the diner's business (and in others in the areas) is a DIRECT result of the OWS. To say otherwise is ludicrous and an obvious attempt to minimize collateral fallout from the protests. An equally specious argument."

[Eviftilia]

Have you been there, and seen this for yourself? I've spent a lot of time there myself, and have seen how the crowd waxes and wanes based on the seasons, and not only am I a reasonable person, I'm a first person witness.

[JohnImamadviser]

Have you been there, and seen this for yourself? I've spent a lot of time there myself, and have seen how the crowd waxes and wanes based on the seasons, and not only am I a reasonable person, I'm a first person witness.

So your position is that if the OWS were not there, the businesses in the Wall Street area would have seen equal or near equal reductions in business regardless? That the reduction is in no way a by-product of the OWS? That the tens of thousands of Wall Street workers (who don't go away in the Fall) would not be frequenting these restaurants which are close by due to the season?

How does your 'reasonableness' reconcile your own statement that the OWS has actually increased tourism in the area (and it has) with your other stated 'fact' that the tourist season has ‘ended’l?

And, considering this………..” Finally, it doesn't help that the streets act like wind tunnels, lowering the area temperature a sizeable number of degrees. In Spring and Summer, that is a good thing since it reduces the sizzle,”

Really?!?! This is a completely new phenomenon to me. Perhaps the laws of physics were different in Boston where I grew up because the summers were miserable in the inner city. I don't remember people flocking there to get 'relief from the sizzle’.

I will stand by my statement (yet again)……
"Having said that, there is no doubt (to a reasonable person) that the decline in the diner's business (and in others in the areas) is a DIRECT result of the OWS. To say otherwise is ludicrous and an obvious attempt to minimize collateral fallout from the protests. An equally specious argument."

[Jffxljtw]

So your position is that if the OWS were not there, the businesses in the Wall Street area would have seen equal or near equal reductions in business regardless? That the reduction is in no way a by-product of the OWS? That the tens of thousands of Wall Street workers (who don't go away in the Fall) would not be frequenting these restaurants which are close by due to the season?

How does your 'reasonableness' reconcile your own statement that the OWS has actually increased tourism in the area (and it has) with your other stated 'fact' that the tourist season has ‘ended’l?

And, considering this………..” Finally, it doesn't help that the streets act like wind tunnels, lowering the area temperature a sizeable number of degrees. In Spring and Summer, that is a good thing since it reduces the sizzle,”

Really?!?! This is a completely new phenomenon to me. Perhaps the laws of physics were different in Boston where I grew up because the summers were miserable in the inner city. I don't remember people flocking there to get 'relief from the sizzle’.

I will stand by my statement (yet again)……
"Having said that, there is no doubt (to a reasonable person) that the decline in the diner's business (and in others in the areas) is a DIRECT result of the OWS. To say otherwise is ludicrous and an obvious attempt to minimize collateral fallout from the protests. An equally specious argument."

I did some more checking, this time searching for a web page.

I found one here: Milk Street Cafe

As you can see, it is part of a mini-chain – they have a second restaurant in Boston – and their business consists of Corporate Catering, on-site eating, and individual delivered orders. If you look at the menus, you will see that they are upscale, complete with upscale prices, so I will say without fear of contradiction that they are not frequented by local Middle Class workers who have not more than One Hour away from their desk for lunch, and prefer to go to lower-scale locations down the block from 40 Wall Street.

Milk Street Cafe - Our Cafes - 50 Milk St. Menu

They charge a $15.00 Minimum for Delivery, and charge $1.25 for a Bagel, plus an additional 75 Cents for Butter, and an additional 75 Cents for Jelly. The price for Cream Cheese is an additional $1.00.


Moving on to Lunch, a small Soup is $3.95. You can use the Salad Bar for $7.95. A Hot Corned Beef on Rye with Mustard Sandwich is $10.95


Moving on to their Beverages, their prices are comparable to Starbucks and other specialty beverages.

Definitely NOT a place for Hourly Workers.

[namaikaimvputka]

I did some more checking, this time searching for a web page.

I found one here: Milk Street Cafe

As you can see, it is part of a mini-chain – they have a second restaurant in Boston – and their business consists of Corporate Catering, on-site eating, and individual delivered orders. If you look at the menus, you will see that they are upscale, complete with upscale prices, so I will say without fear of contradiction that they are not frequented by local Middle Class workers who have not more than One Hour away from their desk for lunch, and prefer to go to lower-scale locations down the block from 40 Wall Street.

Milk Street Cafe - Our Cafes - 50 Milk St. Menu

They charge a $15.00 Minimum for Delivery, and charge $1.25 for a Bagel, plus an additional 75 Cents for Butter, and an additional 75 Cents for Jelly. The price for Cream Cheese is an additional $1.00.


Moving on to Lunch, a small Soup is $3.95. You can use the Salad Bar for $7.95. A Hot Corned Beef on Rye with Mustard Sandwich is $10.95


Moving on to their Beverages, their prices are comparable to Starbucks and other specialty beverages.

Definitely NOT a place for Hourly Workers.

So am I to assume that your answer to my questions "So your position is that if the OWS were not there, the businesses in the Wall Street area would have seen equal or near equal reductions in business regardless? That the reduction is in no way a by-product of the OWS? That the tens of thousands of Wall Street workers (who don't go away in the Fall) would not be frequenting these restaurants which are close by due to the season?" Is "Yes, the reduction in business has nothing to do with OWS?

As usual your information is all just wonderful to have but, pretty irrelevant to the actual questions.

You have raised yet another factor so is it the prices that caused the drop in service or the loss of tourists (although visits by tourists have actually increased since the beginning of OWS)?

And.......I am assuming your incredible amount of local experience is a bit dated if you think soup for is $3.95 or a Salad Bar for $7.95, or even a Corned Beef on Rye with Mustard Sandwich at $10.95 is outrageous in NYC. Granted there are a lot of Burger Kings, Mickey D’s etc there.
Suggest you do some more Googling.

BTW: the NYPD removed some barricades near the Milk Street Café so let’s see if that makes a difference.

[Nakforappealp]

So am I to assume that your answer to my questions "So your position is that if the OWS were not there, the businesses in the Wall Street area would have seen equal or near equal reductions in business regardless? That the reduction is in no way a by-product of the OWS? That the tens of thousands of Wall Street workers (who don't go away in the Fall) would not be frequenting these restaurants which are close by due to the season?" Is "Yes, the reduction in business has nothing to do with OWS?

As usual your information is all just wonderful to have but, pretty irrelevant to the actual questions.

You have raised yet another factor so is it the prices that caused the drop in service or the loss of tourists (although visits by tourists have actually increased since the beginning of OWS)?

And.......I am assuming your incredible amount of local experience is a bit dated if you think soup for is $3.95 or a Salad Bar for $7.95, or even a Corned Beef on Rye with Mustard Sandwich at $10.95 is outrageous in NYC. Granted there are a lot of Burger Kings, Mickey D’s etc there.
Suggest you do some more Googling.

BTW: the NYPD removed some barricades near the Milk Street Café so let’s see if that makes a difference.

Actually, I did not say that the prices were unreasonable, just that workers going out for their Lunch Hour wouldn't pay that much for lunch. They would tend to go to the Take-outs where the prices are lower, and the service is faster. I often picked up a takeout meal of Brisket of Beef with Mashed Potatoes and Corn, and ate it at my desk. This was as recently as last year when attended the NY MTA's Veterans Association's Veterans Day Event.

[HRCPda7R]

I repeat...........

You said "repeat" on the net. Haze yourself.

"Having said that, there is no doubt (to a reasonable person) that the decline in the diner's business (and in others in the areas) is a DIRECT result of the OWS. To say otherwise is ludicrous and an obvious attempt to minimize collateral fallout from the protests. An equally specious argument." Well I'm glad that this guy has "no doubt" his beliefs are true. I also have "no doubt" that there's a dragon in my garage and Iran is planning to destroy our freedom.

[wrefrinny]

You said "repeat" on the net. Haze yourself.



Well I'm glad that this guy has "no doubt" his beliefs are true. I also have "no doubt" that there's a dragon in my garage and Iran is planning to destroy our freedom.

I might compound it by saying "over and out".

By 'this guy' I assume you meant me.

If you see evidence of the dragon and Iran's hostile intent (assuming you don't have a schizophrenic disorder) then I would say your beliefs are spot on.

If you have to argue several different factors, all tenuous and some contradictory, it’s a safe bet you just don't want to admit you are or could be wrong

[Karinochka]

Actually, I did not say that the prices were unreasonable, just that workers going out for their Lunch Hour wouldn't pay that much for lunch. They would tend to go to the Take-outs where the prices are lower, and the service is faster. I often picked up a takeout meal of Brisket of Beef with Mashed Potatoes and Corn, and ate it at my desk. This was as recently as last year when attended the NY MTA's Veterans Association's Veterans Day Event.

You intimated that the prices are high. If they are too high for the workers in October then I would say it is safe to say they are too high in July.

Again.........nice that you had a nice lunch a year ago but what about addressing the points I actually raised?

[forumsfavoriteall]

I might compound it by saying "over and out".

Roger that Sarge. :P

By 'this guy' I assume you meant me. The guy in the article.

If you see evidence of the dragon and Iran's hostile intent (assuming you don't have a schizophrenic disorder) then I would say your beliefs are spot on.

If you have to argue several different factors, all tenuous and some contradictory, it’s a safe bet you just don't want to admit you are or could be wrong Well my point is this guy (in the article, not you) has a failing business, and is desperately trying to pin the blame on an outside atagonist... and get some publicity.

[Peterli]

I might compound it by saying "over and out".

By 'this guy' I assume you meant me.

If you see evidence of the dragon and Iran's hostile intent (assuming you don't have a schizophrenic disorder) then I would say your beliefs are spot on.

If you have to argue several different factors, all tenuous and some contricitory, its a safe bet you just don't want to admit you are or could be wrong

Unfortunately for your ideas about how contradictory factors must be wrong, one thing that persons who live in NYC learn early on is that just because two or more ideas, things, or factors, may be contradictory, they need not be considered wrong, and are often right. There is no explanation for the existance of that fact, nevertheless it does exist. Direct experience is often the solution for understanding the correctness of contradiction.

[CializCialiscsqw]

Unfortunately for your ideas about how contradictory factors must be wrong, one thing that persons who live in NYC learn early on is that just because two or more ideas, things, or factors, may be contradictory, they need not be considered wrong, and are often right. There is no explanation for the existance of that fact, nevertheless it does exist. Direct experience is often the solution for understanding the correctness of contradiction.

Huh?

((suggest you go read that aloud in front of a mirror))

[tipokot]

Roger that Sarge. :P



The guy in the article.



Well my point is this guy (in the article, not you) has a failing business, and is desperately trying to pin the blame on an outside atagonist... and get some publicity.

In honor of you being an arty guy I should have said I will just say "repeat" on the net.


Except he isn't the only one complaining. Of course I read of one coffee shop owner that doesn't have a problem because the OWS folks have been coming in and buying beverages and getting warm. The food carts and trucks are also doing a booming business.

[outdog]

Huh?

((suggest you go read that aloud in front of a mirror))

No need. I long ago learned to accept contradiction. You - on the other hand - confuse accepting the validity of contradiction with agreement with one or the other of the alternatives.

Thus, while I accept the idea of contradiction being valid, I only agree with one of the alternatives - the one I explained earlier.